I had a discussion with a friend about another thread on this board about children misbehaving on cruises. She told me about the following incident which she regarded as an adult misbehaving, rather than the children. My friend has a small child and was on a cruise on the Disney Wonder. Her child was playing in the shallow Mickey-Mouse shaped pool with a gaggle of other children. My friend was watching from the side, sitting on some sort of ledge, and next to her was a woman watching her toddler spash in the shallows. This mother had many burn scars in her body and had obviously survived a bad fire of some sort. While my friend and this woman were watching their respective children, a third woman approached, and (quietly ) asked the burn-scarred mother to please wear a cover-up around the pool because she was going to scare the children.
My friend thought this was not only rude but really mean-spirited. After the complaining woman left, my friend told the scarred woman that none of the children in the pool seemed scared at all, and that even if a child did get scared, the parents should teach them that everyone looks different and it's OK. But obviously the complaining woman felt that people whose bodies are very noticably imperfect should not display those bodies in public.
So, was the complaining mother acting acceptably? Or misbehaving? I should make clear that as a woman whose body is far from model-perfect, IMHO people should be a lot more accepting of their own and other people's imperfect bodies. But do you think that a person with extensive scars or another really vivid "disfigurement" should cover up so as not to disturb others, or do you think my friend is right, and to request this is morally wrong?
I feel it is morally wrong. Where do we draw the line? Maybe someone else skin color is a differant shade, should they be required to cover themselves so it doesn;t offend others? Ridiculious, certainly is, but is it really all that differant. I have a number of scars, some of which are pretty long and noticable and before plastic surgery some were vedry severe. My scars came from working to protect others. Maybe this woman got her burn scars because she went into a burning building to save someone, who really knows. Should our servicemen and women also hide and conceal themselves because they were wounded or lost limbs or suffered some disfiguring wound? What about those that are confined to wheelchairs? With every scar there is a story and everyone, even children should understand this and accept it. I'm willing to bet that kids are less likely to be concerned over this issue than these supposedly adults. That woman was rude and should have been called on her exceptionally poor behaviour.
Jim
I definitely think the "complaining" woman was totally out of line here. She had no business what so ever to say anything to the woman who had some burns on her. This totally makes me mad, it probibaly took a lot of guts for this woman to go out there with her burns showing and try to enjoy herself and watch her child, shame on that other woman!
I agree with Jim and Donna. How inconsiderate of this person to make such a request. There's an old saying, "Be careful of your words today for tomorrow you may have to eat them". Ms. Rude may one day fall into that catagory. What a shame. Denise
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Paradise June 2003
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It probably took a lot of courage and now she will be self-concious even more.
Jim Bragg,
Would you happen to be a firefighter by any chance? Just by what you said about protecting others made me think you might be. My husband is a firefighter and I just wondered.
The female person ( I can't call her a lady ) who made the request is worse than rude.
I'm sure the disfigured lady was hurt deeply by the statement.
I have scarring on my shoulders that isn't pretty and I am very self-concious about it.
I don't know how I would react if someone made the mistake of saying something about it as I got them as a result of " touring " a country called Vietnam.
If I had heard her say that, they would have had a WOMAN OVERBOARD!
At the least I would have confronted her and would not would let her have gotten away with it.
It's very sad to have to go thru that but most of us know that had we been there we might have been so speechless to not have even said anything back. Such rudeness is unacceptable, shame on her.
I think I would have said to the woman, "I'll cover up if you'll cover your face - it's pretty scary - especially that gaping maw you call a mouth." Then I would have pushed her overboard (at least in my dreams).
Well, it seems everyone agrees that asking somebody not to show their scars in public is morally wrong, and the woman who did it was setting a bad example for her children. Actually it's heartening for me to hear, because sometimes I hear people complain about how the people you see on real live cruises don't look like the people in the brochures, and this always depresses me. In real life, people come in fat and thin, scarred and smooth, old and young, etc., etc. It would be a sad world indeed where those with imperfect bodies were shamed out of wearing bathing suits in public.
Yes, I don't think anyone with a conscience or morals wouldn't be absolutely appalled by this woman's shockingly rude behavior. As much as we would all have liked to push her overboard or give her a snappy comeback, I believe most of us would have been speechless, as Diane said.
So the best response after something like that would be to try to say something to the woman she had accosted, as Carrie's friend did, like, "Please don't let that woman get to you. The children don't care, and so why should it matter? I can't believe some people."
In God's eyes we are all supermodels. Did you ever see the movie "Shallow Hal?" The woman who made the comment would have been as ugly and wrinkled as the nurse who was actually a physical beauty but whose inner character made her appear revolting.
Cheers,
Michelle B.
Carnival Imagination
Land Cruise, Britain and Belgium
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Now posting as MichelleP.
that woman goes way beyond rude. What was she thinking? Thank goodness for kind, decent people like your friend. I hope that the dear lady with the burn scars can put this incident behind her and chalk it up to stupidy and ignorance.
Luanne,
I was a Police Officer and was injured pretty seriously, (hence the name RoboCop as they did have to rebuild me <G>) but many people from all walks of life end up with problems that may cause some serious scarring. Nothing to be ashamed of but they still send those of us that have these disfigurements to see a shrink to make sure we are okay with it. Some people have problems with it but I don't think mine are all that bad and so what, I earned them. <G>
Jim
I agree with the others. But then I'm scarred for life too. Betty Lou Bryson told me when I was 14 she didn't like me anymore. I'll never get over her!
I have a daughter who has some neurological disabilities and we are going on a cruise in June. They are just enough that she will be noticed as different in a crowd. She is 10 and I am scared of what the other kids will say to her when we send her to one of the kids programs aboard ship. I know she has to develop thick skin since people ( especially other children ) are often cruel. My daughter may not have the perfect body but she has a perfect heart and my deepest wish was that people could see that more than the physical restrictions.
I think the woman was WRONG the children were curious. They were watching how the adults were going to respond.We had an incident like that years ago.... My huband is a vet. of Veitnam. We were at a public pool. I noticed a group of children playing in the pool just stopped when they saw him. I just smiled. Then a little girl about 10 came up to me and said" What happened to your husband?" I said, Sweetie he was in the war thanks for asking I am so proud of him! " A few minutes later she went back to the group of children& they all looked at my husband& prceeded to play. It wasnt very long & here comes a boy about 9 or 10. He said, "Mister, thank you for helping us to be free."My husband said; "Your welcome young man!" I noticed the parents looked confused. The mother of the boy called him over & I guess he told her. I saw her hug him like she was very proud. The children went on playing as if nothing happened. I feel so bad for your friend!!
Davada you and yours must be very special parents indeed because I believe with all my heart that the Lord only lends special children to parents who can be entrusted with His most precious. I will be praying that God will send a new friend into your daughters life on that cruise and that He will protect her from hearing anything that would hurt her. We too have a female in our immediate family who has problems and if only the world would listen to her and know her heart. God bless you and your family and especially your little girl. I bet she is going to have a blast! Soon, Denise
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Paradise June 2003
Fascination 05 Bahamas
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Fantasy Dec 2 Big Easy to Mx
Denise77 - thank you for your kind words and support. Our daughter is a special child. She is so excited about going to Alaska. She can't wait to hug an Huskie sled dog. She makes me realize everyday how special she is. I too hope she meets a friend who will accept her as she is. She has a great deal to offer and would be a loyal friend forever.
I said when I first read the story that I was speechless. I think I've finally found something to say.
I feel sorry for the woman. No not the woman asked to cover up, the woman asking her to cover up. The woman that was asked has probably come to terms with her situation and has accepted that it is her lot in life. If she was not at peace with her situation, she probably would have been too self-concious to be disrobed in a public place. As you have heard and will often hear me say, everything happens for a reason. Yes, even the most horrendous acts are all part of the grand scheme.
The woman who asked wins my sorrow. What a narrow life she must lead. She needs to remove her rose coloured glasses and see the world around her for what it is, a world of imperfection. This comment in my eyes, also happened for a reason. I would like to think that while sleeping that night, or while working someday, or sometime in the course of her life, she will be reflecting back to her cruise and come to the realization that she embarrassed herself. She will be wishing that somehow, someway, she could find that lady and take back that brief second of her life.
A scarred body doesn't bother me, but a 300 lb.+ woman in a brief bikini I find rather disgusting. European women regardless of size love to dress scantily. The last obese woman I saw in a bikini appeared bottomless from the front, as the fat was hanging over her bikini. Please only wear a brief or thong if you have the figure for it!
I think that if you feel good enough about yourself to wear a bikini at 300+ pounds then go for it! Too much of life is wasted worrying about other people.
I'm a little chubby and have some really bad scars on my abdomen, but I might buy a 2pc suit for my cruise. My husband will love it and I'm on a boat with people I'll never see again, so why not be a little daring!
As a sidebar to the bikini discussion - I spent some time on Ipanema and Copacabana beaches in Rio last Christmas and yes, there were some perfect '10's to behold. But there were just as many Rubenesque ladies wearing the tiniest thongs. No one worried or took notice. In Brazil it's perfectly all right to wear whatever you feel like - or nothing at all! We should have that few hangups about our bodies, great or small.
A person might cover her body because, like Denise77, she feels that modesty reflects her high self-respect and is enticing. That's something I can certainly respect. On the other hand, a person might cover his body because he feels it is ugly and will be scorned by others. This I find very sad. What is strange about American culture is that, as Carol shows, we find body fat more repulsive than scars or other "disfigurements." It would be nice if everyone could put on a bathing suit without feeling insecure, and just have fun swimming. But we've turned bathing-suit wearing into a kind of beauty test.
I teach at a university, and did a lecture on the social history of gender and bathing suits. I showed my students pictures of women wearing bathing costumes in 1900, with long full skirts, high necks and long sleeves. The students were all dismayed and amused to see these suits, which made actual swimming improbable. Then I showed them pictures of women wearing little bikinis. The students were happy to see how women had been liberated from the requirement to cover their bodies, so they could now sun and swim freely. I asked my female students which bathing suits they preferred, and almost all said the bikini. Then I tested this by telling them they would have to put on the bathing costume they chose and wear it in front of the class. Suddenly almost all preferred the Victorian bathing costume.
Don't get me wrong--I don't think women should be stuck in long skirts and sleeves at the beach! But I do think that the sort of bodily display we now require of swimsuit-wearers is also oppressive. In the Victorian era the clothing was restrictive, but today it's our actual bodies that restrict us, and bodies are harder to change than clothes!
Yes very interesting Carrie. I can understand your post exactly. I am of average build but I am approaching middle age and have had kids. I do have some cellulite which I really hate and the awfullest knees. I feel self consicious about it but you know what, if anyone cares, keep it to yourself! I am not and never will be a model body, perfect 10 etc. I am me and tired of trying to be something I can't be or more appropriately what someone else thinks I should be. Sure, maybe the only looks I get are "I can't believe she's wearing that" etc but I do keep myself decent and respectable because that is who I am. Even the beautiful people I think take it too far, it seems like for them it's "look at me aren't I gorgeous, don't you wish you were me" attitude. I do believe if I had the perfect body I would not dress any differently because of my beliefs, morals and personality. I like who I am and where I am in my life. We are all different and besides once the body is gone is what is inside that counts.
Well said Diane. I agree with you all. Particularly in America the "perfect 10" syndrome inhibits us from being who we are. With aging comes alot of changes. Hey, like my daughter and I were discussing yesterday, there are 20 yr old bathing beauties on the beach and one day they won't be 20. They will be the 30, 40 or 60 yr old on the beach. Those were the days ..... but now there are accident scars and spider veins and who knows what all. None of us has walked in that persons shoes and so to insult someone else because of their body is an out rage. Enjoy life while you can and try to see what is inside the other person, not the shell. I also believe as people mature they realize that fact and they are more forgiving of others imperfections. I do however think that great grandma isn't going to find the perfect outfit in the junior dept if you get my drift. Common sense helps.
Denise
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