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  #31 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

This message is for Mr. Bragg,
I really am offended by the comments that I have read coming from you. I'm sorry sir, but you WERE'T THERE. Yes, we were all paying attention to the announcements every 30 minutes or so because we all wanted to know what happened.
Yes, there were injuries and I dare you say otherwise. I don't recall anyone saying anyone died. I think that was a fabrication from you. I was awake when this all happened. I have pictures, videos. Again, you weren't there.
Up until now, I have had no clue as to what happened that night. There were people terrified on this ship. That is what irritates me is why they did not explain more and try to calm people down. We all just wanted to know the story, not have you come on here and just get more people irritated. Need I say again, you weren't there.
I think your little caption under your name says a lot, and I will from now on take your comments with a grain of salt, as should most.
Catherine.
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Old October 30th, 2002, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: Re:Thank You

A big thank you Anne Campbell. I knew you would come through again for all us readers. Have a great day!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

"The report I got was from those that would know and they have no reason to lie or say anything that is not true, and not from CCL PR people."...........Jim Bragg

"The real story from Jennifer de la Cruz of Carnival's P.R. staff".........Anne Campbell


I'm confused!

Regards,
Thomas

Post Edited (10-30-02 13:36)
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Anne,
Thanks for getting a reasonable explanation of the events.

Think in cases such as this, while it's easy to speculate, it's best to be patient and allow the time needed to investigate before jumping to any conclusions about what transpired.

I know in this past, I've been guilty of it as well, but have learned from the experience, and stayed out of this thread until a more clear picture could be drawn.

I could see how some people could get offended by some of the posts in this thread, but interestingly, it's a bit like a crime scene. They say in most cases the eye witness reports at a crime scene are the most unreliable.
Not because anyone is intentionally lying, but likely because emotions are running high, and perspectives are affected.

It was indeed fortunate that there was not a man overboard, and hopefully those who were injured because of the actions taken sought medical assistance onboard, and were taken care of.

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Old October 30th, 2002, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Well from what was told no one heard that anything was going to be toppled over or that the boat would tip on its side soo bad. Well I still think something should be done! And yes I DID see the video last night and I heard the annoucements that were made. As for myself who wasn't there to see it "live" and saw it on video.. I thought it was pretty scary needless to say that nothing was explained and that's why people were upset.. wouldn't you be a "bit" worried if you didn't know what was going on and the ship is side ways?? Of course Mr Bragg is going to fight this one.. I think your all talk, because I bet if it were you, you would be the first to "talk"

Anne I think the some of it is the ways you had said it was but they did not say that things were going to topple over and that the ship was going to be soo much on it's side!
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Old October 30th, 2002, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

A couple of years back I was on the Golden Princess, sitting in the casino making my donation to the cruise line, when suddenly the ship listed badly to one side. Casino chips went flying (none rolled to my side of the table unfortunately). I imagined that there was probably some breakage in the kitchen etc.
The ship righted itself fairly quickly, so I assumed we had swerved to avoid something. However, no explanation was ever offered.
Later in the same cruise, the ship shook rather violently for a just a minute. We were in the cabin at the time, and a panel fell off the wall above the bed. Luckily no one was in the bed, and therefore no big deal, but again... no explanation.

On Celebrity Century, we were on its second sailing, sitting right at the stern two storey window in the dining room as she pulled way from the pier. The entire window started to rumble loudly, the tableware was rattling so hard I thought it would break, and the aft end of the ship was shaking so hard it startled us all.
No explanation was offered.
Turned out to be something that occurs regularily on that class of ship, when thrusters are used to pull away from the pier.

The cruise lines likely could have done a better job of communicating to the passengers in all these situations, as well as this situation with the Destiny. I think people are more comforted being told what has transpired, than by hearing various rumors from fellow passengers and crew.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

I agree with what you just said, Kuki. When you're on an airplane the pilot will come on and explain any unexpected turbulence. It would be comforting if cruise lines would communicate just a bit better with passengers if anything unexpected occurs. Even a line in the next day's ship's newsletter would be better than nothing.

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Michelle B.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

I think it's time for everyone to calm down.

As the facts come out, it appears that someone thought a "man overboard" alert would get quicker medical attention for someone in need than a simple call to the ship's doc or the Purser's office.

I say, with great care, "appears."

As I posted in Cruise Chat, it's rather like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

Whoever did it should be subjected to the same scrutiny and punishment as the fellow who falsely reported a sighting of the DC area sniper or the people who think it's funny to make terroristic comments in airport security lines.

Might someone fall when the ship made its turn? Yes. Might glasses in the dining room, bottles of perfume or liquor in the duty-free shop fall over and break in a turn of the sort described? Yes. (When THAT happens, you do NOT want to smell it.)

I am interested in the reports that people were running about wearing life jackets in a state of panic. Did they not pay attention to the boat drill? Guess not.

Sad thing? I wonder if the person who was in need of medical attention actually received it when the ship went to an immediate emergency situation.

We can speculate all we want. But, when the bridge gets "man overboard" there are procedures that MUST be followed, including the turns that Anne described.

There are certain situations governed by maritime law, such as Man Overboard, Fire, MayDay from another ship where procedures MUST be followed.

Everything else takes second seat.

The idea that anyone would be tossed overboard by such a turn is, well, just not there.

It is, quite literally, IMPOSSIBLE for a cruise ship to heel over to the extent one poster described. (This assumes I read the thread properly.)

What really is upsetting is that there are people who think they should receive financial compensation because the bridge staff was trying to save a life.

Had there been a person overboard and the maneuvers would have saved that life, would people be complaining about a bruised knee or a few other inconveniences?

I don't think so.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Just wanted to add, as a former crewmember that yes, all protocol suggested here for a MR. MOB (man overboard) is correct......this has only happened once on all the ships I have worked on, but the captain announced that he would be making a sharp turn, to be heard on all open decks and alerted the pax to go inside in order to avoid anything like another pax falling overboard.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

I totally agree with Pamda. And as someone who has had to respond in emergency situations, there is not always time to alert innocent bystanders as to what is going to happen and why. I personally think that if I, as an innocent bystander, is informed within 30 minutes of something happening (no matter where or when), I am very happy with that! Yes, it must have been scary, and yes, some people did suffer MINOR injuries (and yes, to us in the medical field a broken bone is a minor injury compared to others we could possibly see), but there is no legal or moral leg to stand on to demand compensation. I would hope that the Captain and crew were following standard procedures, as mandated by maritime law and tradition, and by Coast Guard directives and standards - and if there really was a person overboard (and it was my relative) I would hope that they ships Captain would respond appropriately.

I think sometimes we all forget is that we are in a large mechanical vessel, which is traveling upon a moving and everchanging surface. Things happen (parts break down, the weather stinks, etc.) Sometimes we have to accept that some things are beyond our control.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Well things happen.. and things should have been done properly in order for more people NOT to get hurt.. nothing was announced untill after the fact. And a minor injury is "just" a broken bone or two.. until it's you!

I think in my opinion that things should have been done properly, then maybe no one would be upset.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old October 30th, 2002, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Jen ...

With all due respect ...

Things WERE done properly. Passengers were told to go to their cabins and stay there so a body count aboard could be made to determine if someone WAS overboard.

Announcements as to the reason for the actions taken were none of the passengers business in a time of supposed emergency.

I was not there. But I can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that if the bridge received a Man Overboard they will act first, explain second.

It boggles my mind to think that anyone would complain about lack of information in a life-or-death situation. And, worse, ask for some sort of financial compensation for the inconvenience.

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 05:56 AM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Is it normal for the ship to turn at such a drastic angle that the ship appeared to be capsizing for a man overboard? The drastic turn of the ship most definitly could have made someone go overboard. I am amazed at the postings that make those us who were there sound as if we are making a mountain out of a mole hill. This was not normal in the way the ship stopped and turned on its side! If you can't understand just how bad this was then don't say anything because it only minimizes the total fear that those of us who were there felt! Do you understand that after going on three cruises I will not go on another because it was that terrifying?! Do Not make this less than it was!
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Ann, Thank you for this information. If this is what happened I do understand, but the ship tilled in such a manner that anyone standing on the side of the ship could have fallen of. Possibly the turn was more than they planned in the commotion of the moment. I don't know. I do know that it was terrifying. No, there was not any expaination of 'why' except the 'man overbaord' call. If the captain had explained further that the sudden drastic turn was necessary, we probably wouldn't be seeing 44 posts in this message board. But I do thank you for the best (and compassionate) information we have received so far.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 06:19 AM
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Default LIGHTEN UP, FOLKS!!!!

Is there a full moon today? Why is everyone so passionate about this subject? The real story -- no one fell overboard -- is higher on the Carnival thread. So, nothing happened.

By the way, life happens on ships. People die, have accidents, drownd while snorkeling, trip on a sidewalk. Everything under the sun happens. Some eight million people a year take a cruise and buying a cruise ticket doesn't mean you get a pardon from life's events. Actually, it has been more than a decade since I heard mention of a ship having to turn to rescue someone who fell/jumped off.

Ships are safe, very safe. Anyone who has been aboard any ship would know you have to climb over the railing to go off the ship. But the first thing Carnival did was turn (it takes about 19 miles to turn a vessel like Destiny), then ask questions. That's just the custom of the sea.

A story: some 20 years ago on the old Rotterdam, a frantic woman informed offers that she'd combed the ship and couldn't find her husband. Everyone searched and the Captain decided that he'd gone overboard -- about 5 hours previously, the last time he'd been seen. But he chartered a course for the spot the gent had last been seen aboard ship, sailed for ten hours and -- no fooling -- there he was! Floating in the water clutching a piece of wood. They pulled him up and he continued his cruise. Amazing!!

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  #46 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 06:22 AM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Sounds to me Pam as though there were some opportunities for the staff and crew to do things a little better. An explanation can be made after the rescue to calm people's fears. I understand that. But how long does it take for the Captain to announce over the PA system, "We are making an abrupt turn to effect a possible rescue, some loose items in the cabins may shift in this maneuver and the ship will list accordingly, please be prepared. This is normal."

A statement such as this only takes 8 seconds.

Regards,
Thomas
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 08:25 AM
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Default Re: LIGHTEN UP, FOLKS!!!!

Personally, I am glad to know that the cruise line will take immediate action in the case of a man overboard, and then ask questions later, but I would also hope that the person who made this call truly believed that it was fact.
If though, it is found to be a prank call, I believe that the person who made this man overboard call should have to pay the compensation to the persons who were injured Not the cruise line. I also hope he was taken into custody until the ship docked and then turned over to the proper authorities for processing. The passengers of this cruise will probably never know the real reason, as it seems there is more damage control than information going on.
Yes, there was glass breakage on the ship throughout. We just had wine glasses broken in our floor (and yes, we did have to clean up the glass ourselves, the hotel staff was busy making sure we were all accounted for which is more important). Our dining staff were using whatever glassware was usable to serve us breakfast, water in wine glasses, taking the coffee cups to the next table, etc. I am sure this staff did not get any rest that day and they did an excellent job making our last meal aboard as fine as could be.
I have been on several cruises and will continue to cruise. Yes this was probably the wildest few minutes that I have spent on a cruise ship, but I took the trip to get away and have some excitement, and that is what happened. And yes Anne, it was the week of the full moon, which is one of the key factors when we book our cruises.
Yes, there were several who totally lost it and ran to the deck with their lifejackets, but most folks were concerned and waiting for information. This is where Carnival could have done a little better by making a true and accurate statement to calm the nerves of those who were terrified. Not any of the officers in charge of the search/rescue, they were busy trying to save a life. Our cruise director, Jorge, could have made another statement while we were waiting to go through customs, by that time they knew the injuries, damages to the ship, and status of the victim (if any). That would have been a nice gesture. It is because they did not inform us that questions have been asked.
As for Mr Bragg's statements, you in charge of this forum might need to help him to learn compassion. His statements back to those who were there and truly scared have done nothing but cause more problem.
Thank you.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 10:28 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

I will bet you that the tilt of the ship probably came as a surprise to the captain as well. The folks on the bridge were probably too busy hanging on themselves to make an announcement.

I do agree that an announcement should have been made, though. And I would hate to think anyone did this as a prank. That would set a horrible precedent. Pulling the brake line on a train without due reason is illegal, is it not?

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Old October 31st, 2002, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Re: LIGHTEN UP, FOLKS!!!!

How many times do I have to state this "EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION" Gee I'm not here to create problems I had an opinion and I'm being bashed for it! I have to agree with some people, it does not take long for the captin to say on the P.A.. by the way sharp turn things will be toppled hold on. But it was not said. After the fact had happen they said they took a wide turn. Wow some people here must be paid quite well from Carnival! And as for $$ well like I said before, if they can compensate on Delays they can compensate on this.. but even if they didn't get $$ the lwast they could have done was explain what happend.. NOT something written here. But that is MY opinion.

For thoes who were on that boat, I can't fully understand that feeling but after watching the tape.. I feel for you! I heard the announcement said AFTER it all happend.. yes they told everyone to go to their cabins but after is happend to make a count on who was there. Yes i saw them looking to see if someone went overboard.. (mind you thoes lights you can't see nothing with) things should have been done properly NOT ONLY for the cruise line but for the passengers , as it was happening NOT after it did!

Again Just my opinion.
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Old October 31st, 2002, 10:36 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Paul I agree with you, but it's not the passengers fault that someone yelled overboard.. Were they even charged for doing such a prank?
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Re: Re: LIGHTEN UP, FOLKS!!!!

You absolutely have a right to your opinion. That's why God created message boards
I think it's fun to debate these things sometimes.

In my opinion, it's a very serious matter to turn a ship around in an emergency situation and I believe the Captain and crew had their hands full in this procedure. They have to do it quickly and safely. Letting the passengrs wait a bit until it can be fully explained is understandable. After all, those aboard the ship were in no danger at all. There were no injuries.

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Jen ...

Nobody is "bashing" you.

There are some people who post here with lots and lots and lots of experience at sea. Those people are stating their opinions based on long experience.

If there's bashing going on, it just might be Wow some people here must be paid quite well from Carnival! ... your statement. Though I am sure you did not intend to imply that. I can understand your strong feelings about this incident.

Thomas said that it would have only taken eight seconds for the Captain or other bridge staff to make an announcement about the turn. If a life is at stake, eight seconds could be a lifetime.

Look at it this way. If the bridge were to take the time to make an announcement, "We are taking a hard turn to the port because of a man overboard situation," would that have caused more or less panic than has already been discussed? Would people even have been listening?

I have been on a ship that responded to a MayDay/Man Overboard call. I have also (twice) been on a ship that was hit with a rogue wave with almost the same effect as that hard turn.

A rogue wave is very similar to Clear Air Turbulence (CAT) on an airplane. Nobody can see it coming. Once it's over, it's over and the bridge or the cockpit crew can make a reassuring statement. In the case of possible loss of life due to an overboard situation, the rules change and they change fast.

I believe that it's impossible from an engineering point of view for a modern cruise ship to heel more than 15 degrees. I'm not too sure where I got that little nugget of information, and it may not be correct. But it sticks in my head.

I will agree that the situation might have been handled better, but what came down was not an every-day, ordinary event. The idea that a ship of that GWT and construction was about to capsize in a hard turn just does NOT make sense.

I have complete empathy for those who were scared and worried. At the same time, I wonder if those passengers who freaked out had paid any attention at all to the lifeboat drill.

And, as Anne said, G*d created bulletin boards for the free exchange of ideas and opinions. My opinion is that anyone, make that anyone who expects financial compensation for the inconvenience of a hard turn in an attempt to save a life should be keelhauled along with the person who raised the fake alarm.

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Old October 31st, 2002, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

You mean to tell me that there are tapes floating around of people falling off the bunks, closet doors coming unhinged?

This appears to be a bit over blown, as for compensation, FOR WHAT?

I had a friend on a cruise from California to Hawaii several years ago, the seas got rough and waves hit up over the decks, people fell from their beds, things fell off shelves, etc. Should they have been compensated? For What?
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Old October 31st, 2002, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Pam:

I totally agree with your statements. Why should anyone deserve money? An explanation, maybe a letter in the next couple of weeks fine, but no money. As for how much ships lean, I took a 40 degree roll on a Navy cruiser sometime back. No real damage. I can imagine though in a 15 degree roll that the shops in the cruise ship probably looked like one of our California earthquakes.

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Old October 31st, 2002, 04:59 PM
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Default Chat Line?

Have the Cruise Mates ever considered a chat line where these "hot button" topics could be discussed back and forth in real time instead of having to carry this thread over several days? Hopefully they would clear things up a little quicker.
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Old October 31st, 2002, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Chat Line?

There is real-time chat at 9 EST here on CruiseMates, but even if it were used as a forum to debate hot-button topics, I honestly don't think that's going to solve anything. Everyone has their own opinion about this topic and it's pretty obvious that no one is going to change their mind.

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Old October 31st, 2002, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Chat Line?

Hi SS,
We did once have something simular to what you are suggesting, just didn't go over that well.

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  #58 (permalink)  
Old October 31st, 2002, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

I think what got people upset is Jim's original post...."THIS IS A BUNCH OF GARBAGE!"
When people that were actually on the ship experienced something that was frightening.

Putting the old calculator to work, I took your 15 degree limit on a list (which means the metacenter will never vary from the vertical plane of the center of gravity more than that, which means a ship cannot overturn, which of course is false. BUT we can use it for an example.) and applied it to a cabin on the 6th deck. Assuming the first deck would begin at the very bottom of the hull and there is 10 ft. between each deck means a 15 degree list would move the contents (people) in cabins on the 6th deck tangentially 16.07 feet. People on deck 12 would be moved 32.17 feet ! ! !

Depending on how abruptly the list occured I can guess how tragic this might have seemed to some who were peacefully sleeping in their beds.

I don't know............it seems to me things might have been less alarming had an announcement been made prior to the turn.

As a side note. The company I work for once conducted an emergency preparedness drill in a plant which manufactured some nasty stuff. It was unannounced so to gauge the response in a real emergency. There were so many injuries from the panic of the fake drill it was disgusting. Maybe there's a lesson here.

Regards.
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Old October 31st, 2002, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Re: Destiny Man Overboard

As for a tape that shows people falling no he does not have but things broken everywhere people on wheelchairs with broken legs. People who passed out (no big deal people sometimes are that way) I hear all the announcements. Everything was said AFTER it all happend and yes if they just had said it before time things would have been different.

Well a letter would be nice but I doubt Carnival will even bother with that, they don't care.
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Old November 1st, 2002, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Destiny Man Overboard

Well, Thomas ...

Before I send you to your room with your calculator and your protractor ....

Right after United Airlines retired the pterydactyls, the "Super" DC-8 equipment had to be certified for evacuation.

I was the lucky one to be designated as the "A" stewardess (the term "flight attendant" had not yet been invented) for the evac certification test.

So, here was this MONGO aircraft in a hanger at O'Hare. It was SOOO mongo that the tail was sticking out of the hangar. The plane was filled with 198 UA employees who were collecting a few bucks for "volunteering" for the exercise. And flight crew.

Large platforms had been constructed under the wings to test the over-wing window evac routes.

We did the O2 mask thing. We did the lean forward in crash mode thing. We did the find your PFD thing. We had dolls to simulate children. Then we had the (fake) fire and everything went dark. Evac time. People were encouraged to scream and panic. Encouragement was NOT required.

My job was to keep talking on the PA trying to direct people as to what they should be doing. And to calm them down. The volunteers didn't know what they were in for. It was, truly, terrifying. Even for me, and I knew what was coming down.

I don't know about cruise ships, but part of our training back then was "fright flights." When I was an instructor we'd take our wanna-be stewardesses up in the air, give them a nice lunch (instructors served as FAs) and then the Captain would cut the engines and we'd drop like a stone. Anybody who freaked was on the next plane (or, in extreme cases, train) home.

In the evac test, the "slides" from the door exits went straight to the floor of the hangar and there were "catchers" for those who used those slides.

Evac over-wing was sliding down the wing to the platform. A number of people sort of fell off the platform, breaking a few bones along the way. They went into total panic mode, thinking that the "exercise" had somehow gone bad.

Point being, the people who used the over-wing exits did NOT hear or heed the instructions. ("Stay where you are until the lights come back on.") Even though they were clearly given BEFORE the exercise and DURING the exercise.

So, yes, there are lessons to be learned.

Number One is DO NOT PANIC.

That is also Number Two through Seventy-Six. Along with Do Not Panic is LISTEN and WAIT for instruction.

Now, take that calculator and proctractor and go to your room

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