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  #61 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2007, 10:31 PM
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Ipodz, I agree that you need to ask an expert. And by the way, since your nephew was gentleman enough to walk the young lady back to her cabin after his "professional", I hope he is not crazy enough to still be in contact with her. Like email or texting. (No offense, I mean crazy in the teenage invinsible kind of way)
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 12:09 AM
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Assuming the female was 16, the male could be charged with Deviate sexual intercourse, Indecency with a child, Sexual assault of a child, aggravated sexual assault of a child. Let's just say he is in big time trouble.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Assuming the female was 16, the male could be charged with Deviate sexual intercourse, Indecency with a child, Sexual assault of a child, aggravated sexual assault of a child. Let's just say he is in big time trouble.
The OP said in his second post that the incident happened in international territory, so it is likely none of those apply.

When a U.S. citizen commits or is the victim of a crime outside the territorial waters of the U.S., the laws of the U.S., the laws of other nations, and international law determines the FBI's legal authority to respond to or investigate the crime.

In this particular case, the incident doesn't appear to be a violation of U.S. Federal law (you can easily google United States Code), so that eliminates the FBI's interest.

I seriously doubt any other nation would invest the time and effort to pursue such a minor thing, but who knows.

Cheers, Aidan
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 09:19 AM
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It is becoming more and more apparent both here and onboard that a changing level of passenger social skills within the cruise industry and
passengers' interpretation of what is 'acceptable behavior in public places has worsened.

Whether CruiseBruise does or does not have a purpose to damage the reputation of the cruise industry, does that make the incidents less true or important.

The latest incidents of jumpers and assaults calls upon the industry to do something to protect its passengers.

Whether we want it or not, there needs to be some sort of Code of Conduct document signed at embarkation that explains anyone observed
displaying unacceptable behavior will be subject to action by security personnel, up to and including involuntary disembark, confinement or monetary fines.

We don't need "100 Sea Marshalls per ship" everywhere but we do need many more MAA (Master at Arms) personnel on station around the ship. In my opinion moreso between the hours of 10pm and 7am. I should think 4 or 5 "observers" along the length of the ship from bow to stern on the Lido deck and more than one outside the discos/bars.

A roving (unarmed) patrol of passenger cabin passageways would go a long way to making people feel more safe and deter hooligans from running amok at all hours of the night.

I don't want plexiglass walls keeping me from being able to approach the railing and observe the view, or have balconies that are completely enclosed. But I suspect that will be the response we will see from the industry if something isn't done.

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  #65 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 10:34 AM
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Before we demand more security personnel (and the higher cost associated with it) or sign "a promise to behave" document, we have to take a look at the total number of unpleasant/illegal incidents on board a cruise ship when compared to the total number of passengers and you would get a microscopic fraction of a percentage.

With crime stats that low, not much more probably can be done to eliminate every single possibility of bad behavior. People are human and will at times behave in unfavorable ways.

IMHO, it does not warrant any reason to panic and demand "changes in procedures, security or contracts."

People jump in front of the subway here in NYC. People jump off of the Empire State Building, Golden Gate Bridge, Iffel Tower, Niagra Falls, etc. Always have -- always will.

And, forget about trying to rein in wayward young people. Adam and Eve, Sampson & Delila, Cleopatra and Antony, Monica Lewinsky ( ) and so on and so forth. It just ain't gonna happen.

There is no way to stop the 10 passengers each year whose behavior will cause their own injury and/or demise while not hindering the ability of the other 20 million or so passengers to enjoy their vacation.

Can't be done.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Assuming the female was 16, the male could be charged with Deviate sexual intercourse, Indecency with a child, Sexual assault of a child, aggravated sexual assault of a child. Let's just say he is in big time trouble.
The OP said in his second post that the incident happened in international territory, so it is likely none of those apply.

When a U.S. citizen commits or is the victim of a crime outside the territorial waters of the U.S., the laws of the U.S., the laws of other nations, and international law determines the FBI's legal authority to respond to or investigate the crime.

In this particular case, the incident doesn't appear to be a violation of U.S. Federal law (you can easily google United States Code), so that eliminates the FBI's interest.

I seriously doubt any other nation would invest the time and effort to pursue such a minor thing, but who knows.

Cheers, Aidan
Not worth commenting...
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Before we demand more security personnel (and the higher cost associated with it) or sign "a promise to behave" document, we have to take a look at the total number of unpleasant/illegal incidents on board a cruise ship when compared to the total number of passengers and you would get a microscopic fraction of a percentage.
There is no way to stop the 10 passengers each year whose behavior will cause their own injury and/or demise while not hindering the ability of the other 20 million or so passengers to enjoy their vacation.
Agreed. And supported:

http://www.iccl.org/policies/personal.cfm
http://www.iccl.org/policies/security.cfm

http://www.iccl.org/pressroom/crye_t...y_12-13-05.pdf

• More than 10 million people went on cruise vacations in 2004.
• From reports, it can be estimated that 13 persons (passengers) have gone missing off ICCL member cruise ships in the past two years.
• Therefore in these two years, less than 1 person per 1 million passengers went missing.
Cruise ships: 1 alleged sexual assault per 100,000 passengers (based on statistics produced in a court case)
Approximately 50 cruise ship crimes against U.S. citizens are reported to the FBI each year
Cruise Ships: 1 crime per 200,000 cruise passengers

http://republicans.transportation.ho...spx?NewsID=100

I hold no political affiliation, the above site is simply one addressing the issue. No Elephant/donkey flames please!

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress...cker121305.htm

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  #68 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 10:43 PM
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I'm late on this post, but it's really interesting.

First, Paul said:
How often and under what circumstances do you hear about statutory rape cases on land?

Sadly Paul, there is a HUGE case in Atlanta right now because a young man who is 17 and had consensual sex with his 15 yo GF is sitting in jail on a long, long sentence. It's even getting national coverage, but you're right, this doesn't seem to happen much.

Phil and Liz - there are lawyers here. My dh is one. First of all, the first thing my dh lawyer will say is "we don't give legal advise over the phone, much less on a message board." That being said, his best guess, without research (lawyers don't tend to just "know" law BTW, they just know which books to look in!) is this is for maritime law.

Second, just google "age of consent" and you'll get just that for every state and country.

For Panama (Carnival's country of registry) it's 12 for males and 18 for females.

Georgia (my state) 16 for all
Delaware 16 male, 18 female
Illinois 17 for all
Iowa 14 for male, 16 for female
Montana 16 for male, 18 for female

Just a sampling. I think a post for a non-cruise board might be how strange it is that most consent laws, even in other countries, have the male age younger than the female....

Interesting post - thanks everyone.

dorothy
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2007, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Before we demand more security personnel (and the higher cost associated with it) or sign "a promise to behave" document, we have to take a look at the total number of unpleasant/illegal incidents on board a cruise ship when compared to the total number of passengers and you would get a microscopic fraction of a percentage.
There is no way to stop the 10 passengers each year whose behavior will cause their own injury and/or demise while not hindering the ability of the other 20 million or so passengers to enjoy their vacation.
Agreed. And supported:

http://www.iccl.org/policies/personal.cfm
http://www.iccl.org/policies/security.cfm

http://www.iccl.org/pressroom/crye_t...y_12-13-05.pdf

• More than 10 million people went on cruise vacations in 2004.
• From reports, it can be estimated that 13 persons (passengers) have gone missing off ICCL member cruise ships in the past two years.
• Therefore in these two years, less than 1 person per 1 million passengers went missing.
Cruise ships: 1 alleged sexual assault per 100,000 passengers (based on statistics produced in a court case)
Approximately 50 cruise ship crimes against U.S. citizens are reported to the FBI each year
Cruise Ships: 1 crime per 200,000 cruise passengers

http://republicans.transportation.ho...spx?NewsID=100

I hold no political affiliation, the above site is simply one addressing the issue. No Elephant/donkey flames please!

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress...cker121305.htm

Phil & Liz
Good research P&L. It supports what has always been my opinion that cruising is probably statistically (and factually) safer than going to work every day. Or, for that matter, sitting at home with the doors and windows locked.

No other vacation destination can boast those low numbers. Stuff happens. But it rarely happens on a cruiseship.

In fact, if you go off on your own at a port and don't return to the ship, you are immediately reported missing to the local authorities and the ship will follow up to make sure you have turned up. No land resort does that. Land resort do not concern themselves with your disapparence until it is time for you to check out of your room. And, they may not concern themselves then!!! You are usually not missed until you are due back home or work. Days and days later.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old July 7th, 2007, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Not worth commenting...
I fear you misunderstand my point.

Extraterritorial offenses against U.S. citizens raise all sorts of thorny issues, such as diplomatic relations, treaties, etc.

Regardless of various U.S. state laws, which are irrelevant, or how you personally feel about a 16-year old fellating a 19-year old, this simply isn't the sort of thing that prompts governments to muster a response. There are more important things going on in the world.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old July 7th, 2007, 11:52 PM
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Aidan, true, there are more, much more, important things needing attention in the world. A 19 year old and 16 year old playing "house" is a commonplace occurrence.

Consider yourself in the father's place. You would probably want to take a pound of flesh out of the young man. The United States does have laws that pertain to American citizens regardless of where they lay their hat for the day. Why do you think the government wouldn't protect its citizens?

A recent case in point... The young man who jumped from the Carnival Ecstasy last week had mental problems afterwards. Recall, he was assaulted by two men who used a pipe on him. They are in the prison system. Now, the case is going to be "enhanced" because the young man couldn't stand the personal pain and killed himself. As a law enforcement officer in the coounty where this crime happened, I am able to personally see what the case entails.

The government will go after the 19 year old if the father files a complaint.

Cheers back to you.

Michael
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old July 8th, 2007, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
The government will go after the 19 year old if the father files a complaint.
As I said, the FBI won't because the kid didn't do anything against Federal law. Here is one (of many) copies of U.S. law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...1_18_10_I.html. If you are going to keep denying it, I'm going to have to be rude enough to ask you to cite a source.

If you mean a foreign government, I ask you to read my previous post.

Cheers, Aidan
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old July 8th, 2007, 02:22 AM
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Kind sir, I am not a rude person unless I have to be and this is not an instance where I have to be. I am not an attorney and I would have to believe you aren't either. So, the point is moot.

Ipodz, go get an attorney's advice... now.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old July 8th, 2007, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorothy
I'm late on this post, but it's really interesting.

First, Paul said:
How often and under what circumstances do you hear about statutory rape cases on land?

Sadly Paul, there is a HUGE case in Atlanta right now because a young man who is 17 and had consensual "***" with his 15 yo GF is sitting in jail on a long, long sentence. It's even getting national coverage, but you're right, this doesn't seem to happen much.

Already pointed out earlier in the thread.....
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:44 pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
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Phil & Liz
Phil and Liz - there are lawyers here. My dh is one. First of all, the first thing my dh lawyer will say is "we don't give legal advise over the phone, much less on a message board." That being said, his best guess, without research (lawyers don't tend to just "know" law BTW, they just know which books to look in!) is this is for maritime law.

In my post on this I said "If it isn't already apparent"...meaning up to that point no one claiming to be a lawyer gave their opinion, and as you say likely would not in this forum. So the OP should be seeking elsewhere.


For Panama (Carnival's country of registry) it's 12 for males and 18 for females.

Georgia (my state) 16 for all
Delaware 16 male, 18 female
Illinois 17 for all
Iowa 14 for male, 16 for female
Montana 16 for male, 18 for female
dorothy


Age of Consent in the United States, by state.

Alabama........16
Alaska.........16
Arizona........18
Arkansas.......16
California.....18
Colorado.......16
Connecticut....16
D.C............16
Delaware.......12
Florida........18
Georgia........14
Hawaii.........16
Idaho..........18
Illinois.......16
Indiana........16
Iowa...........14
Kansas.........16
Kentucky.......14 [1]
Louisiana......17
Maine..........14
Maryland.......16
Massachusetts..18
Michigan.......16
Minnesota......16
Mississippi....18 [2]
Missouri.......16
Montana........16
Nebraska.......16
Nevada.........16
New Hampshire..16
New Jersey.....16
New Mexico.....13
New York.......17
North Carolina.16
North Dakota...18
Ohio...........16
Oklahoma.......18
Oregon.........18
Pennsylvania...14
Rhode Island...16
South Carolina.16
South Dakota...16
Tennessee......18
Texas..........17
Utah...........14
Vermont........15
Virginia.......16
Washington.....18
West Virginia..16
Wisconsin......18
Wyoming........18
FOOTNOTES:
[1] Age 16 if the man is 21 or older.
[2] If the female is over 12, the statute applies only to virgins.
Contributed by:
Bill Casti <quire@vector.casti.com>


dorothy[/quote]
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old July 8th, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Sorry Phil, info such as I posted is best not gathered on the internet, but at legitimate law libriaries (which are also online, but for lawyers who pay ridiculous fees to be able to use them). I had a little help from my dh at a search on one of his law libraries, so I know the info I listed was correct.

That being said, states change such laws all the time, so it may be that some of it is dated, but the legal search system my husband uses is as up to date as is possible.

I think the internet, rightly so in many cases, lulls all of us into thinking that just because it's on the internet it's "right." I guess it's the 21st century version of "I read it in the paper, it must be true."

dorothy
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Old July 8th, 2007, 11:38 AM
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when it comes down to it, more people are cruising these days then in past years. with more people cruising-more incidents are bound to happen.
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Old July 8th, 2007, 05:27 PM
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How old did the girl say she was? When my nearly 21 year old son & nephew went on a cruise a couple of years ago they met two sisters who said they were 19 & 20. (Trust me, they looked 19 & 20) Turned out they were 15 & 18, so . . . sometimes girls lie about their age. Where were the girls parents? If I had a 15 year old daughter she would not be running amok on a cruise ship without some kind of supervision.
I'd immediately seek the advice of an attorney, this could get ugly real fast.
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Old July 8th, 2007, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
I am not an attorney
I disagree strongly with the idea that only attorneys can read or comprehend the law. If that were the case, how would policemen who are not lawyers know who to arrest? They would not know any laws because they could not comprehend them by reading them!

I posted a link to United States law. There are many others, including a government site. The incident described by the OP is not a violation of U.S. law in my opinion. If you disagree, post the relevant statute and I will reconsider my stance.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old July 8th, 2007, 07:56 PM
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Aidan, looking at the US Code, I agree that because it states that an adult is someone who is 16 years of age or older or if the alleged offender is less than 4 years in age difference, then there is no violation according to the United States Government.

However, if this occurred in Texas, he would be going straight to the pen. Texas Penal Code, Chapter 21; Section 21.11 Indecency With a Child. A child is described as ...."younger than 17 years of age...".

The OP never said exactly where the alleged violation occurred, just while on the cruise.
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Old July 8th, 2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
In this particular case, the incident doesn't appear to be a violation of U.S. Federal law...
Aidan
This particular case perhaps, but in another case that involved an adult and a minor, it does appear as though a federal charge can be made.
In that case the man was found not guilty.
"A well-known former Los Angeles Police Department spokesman, who now lives in Colorado, is on trial in federal court, accused of touching two 12-year-old boys inappropriately on a cruise ship. Roderick Bernsen was indicted on charges of abusive sexual contact with a minor after the boys said he touched them in the steam room of the Diamond Princess cruise ship last September."

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
I am not an attorney
I disagree strongly with the idea that only attorneys can read or comprehend the law. If that were the case, how would policemen who are not lawyers know who to arrest? They would not know any laws because they could not comprehend them by reading them!

I posted a link to United States law. There are many others, including a government site. The incident described by the OP is not a violation of U.S. law in my opinion. If you disagree, post the relevant statute and I will reconsider my stance.

Cheers, Aidan
With all due respect, I didn't say only attorneys can read or comprehend the law. Although attorneys tend to do other things besides just reading and understanding code. Westlaw and other online law libraries have an amazing way of linking you to other points of law, including citing other law or code that the man on the street simply doesn't have access to without a full law library.

If everyone could read and understand all code and all laws, there wouldn't be law school.

However, my point wasn't so much about interpreting law, but giving legal advise on the internet (or anywhere else for that matter) when you are not a licensed attorney. It's not really any different than asking someone a symptom for an illness and telling them what medicines to take, or how to go about "curing" the disease.

dorothy
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2007, 04:31 PM
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I don't think anyone on this thread is giving bonafide "legal advice". I think everyone is just voicing their opinion on a very interesting scenario.

As far as getting medical advice from a non-doctor, I always get medical advice from other people. I listen to it gladly and follow what seems prudent and disregard the rest. Everyone has the cure for a chest cold, or a tummy ache. No need for medical school graduates for that.

The same with the comments on this thread. This is not an online, "type-in" legal clinic. It is a bunch of cruisers who are taking their past experiences, adding some known facts and a lot of imagination and coming up with what they personally think the situation is now or will be in the future.

No harm at all.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old July 9th, 2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
I don't think anyone on this thread is giving bonafide "legal advice". I think everyone is just voicing their opinion on a very interesting scenario.

As far as getting medical advice from a non-doctor, I always get medical advice from other people. I listen to it gladly and follow what seems prudent and disregard the rest. Everyone has the cure for a chest cold, or a tummy ache. No need for medical school graduates for that.

The same with the comments on this thread. This is not an online, "type-in" legal clinic. It is a bunch of cruisers who are taking their past experiences, adding some known facts and a lot of imagination and coming up with what they personally think the situation is now or will be in the future.

No harm at all.
I guess it depends on how you see legal advise. People on this thread have posted conflicting opinions (which are presented as facts) on age of consent, jurisdiction, including federal laws, whether US law applies or not, and maritime law. It's the "known facts" that worries me. I'm afraid lots of posters have issued what they consider "known facts" when in fact they might not be.

What I guess I meant is that the OP should seek legal counsel, or legal opinion, on this matter before deciding what their actions might be for their son.

Remember, if the girls' family decides to pursue this, it's potentially a young man's life at stake.

I retract the doctor stuff, IBCRUZIN'. I guess I was thinking of not consulting a doctor for something serious. Heck yes I depend on friends to give me a new cold remedy!

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Old July 9th, 2007, 05:01 PM
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Wow, You guys have been busy since I last saw this post. Are we ready to take it to the Supreme court yet?


Bottom line: Suckee needs to play more bingo, and start thinking with his brain, and not his willie.

If this had happened, and he went running down the Lido screaming Monica, Monica, he would have been saved from this.

But, I don't think it even happened. Why would anyone in their right mind, come on a public board and tell everyone what the boy said happened, when it could very easily go to court one day, and trace back to the original poster?
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Old July 9th, 2007, 05:03 PM
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I can not believe so many are getting so upset over this thread.
It was supposed to have happened back in May, apparently nothing has happened, and I still say nothing will. Ain't no prosecutor got time for a case that has no evidence and it's a 'his word against hers'.
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Old July 9th, 2007, 05:14 PM
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Well at this point, if the girl and her dad every do come back, it is definitely his word versus her word. If I am not mistaken, the girl has either digested the evidence or discarded it. In which case, if the boy even admits to having seen the girl around the ship, . . . well then, he has an even bigger problem.

That being . . . . "you can't fix stupid." :evil: :evil:
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Old July 9th, 2007, 05:20 PM
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Old July 9th, 2007, 05:39 PM
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First of all, this a "hot" topic, so I want to say thank you and congrats to all for keeping cool heads. This message board is great that people can disagree so civilly.

Yes, I did say something about "how often do you hear about statutory rape in every day life (on land), then I talked to my wife (I have no kids) - my stepdaughter when in high school always dated older guys, so a case could have been made at any time. She is now just 21 and married to a 29 year old.

In any case, there was a lot of that going on in her group. However, one of her friend's had a father and he did report the case, and I hear the young man served maybe a year. That is a hard thing to do.

My personal opinion about this, however and based on my recent research, is that it is not a matter of whether or not any state law applies, it is purely up to the FBI to investigate and bring charges, and as someone said, first the father must make a formal complaint, then the FBI has to look at the facts, in the absence of hard evidence (sorry) after the fact (months later now) I doubt they will take this case, because it will be he said/she said, and historically they don't touch those cases.

I could be wrong. The FBI could change policy at any time, but there are some frustrated people out there who consider themselves victims in cases where the FBI did not act. And I am not saying that is right, I am just saying that is the way it is.

I asked before if anyone had ever heard of a civil suit in a case like this, and I don't think I got an answer (I have not been here for a few days). But that could be the only recourse, and it sounds unlikely to me.

Bottom line, if you have a teenage daughter on a cruise, either you trust her, or you watch her every minute, because if she decides she wants to "hook up" with someone when you are not looking chances are you will not have much recourse once that cruise is over.

If you did complain during the cruise, they would take the report and file it with the FBI - probably even do tests and seal the "crime" scene. That would be a different story, but again my gut says that unless there were signs of force, or the girl was 15 or younger, etc.... I doubt if much would happen. (This last part is purely opinion and conjecture!!)

Lets not be disingenuous here. Ships are still at the mercy & whim of the FBI when crimes occur. We are fortunate that crime happens so infrequently on ships, but when it does happen, the guarantees of follow up are not the same as if you are in your home town. The ship will help you, but it is ultimately up to the individual to make reports and keep tabs (write notes, times, keep records, etc etc etc) on what is happening.

If I told you anything different I would not be being fully honest. It can get tough for "victims". Fortunately, it is easy NOT to be a victim on a ship as long as you take personal responsibility. For a dad, I think I have already spelled out what that means.

Now, I have spoken to Royal Caribbean about ship law matters, and they are putting uniformed guards on the Soveriegn class ships already. their job will be include interacting with passengers and trying to stop these things before they happen. I don't know for a fact what Carnival is doing right now.
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Old July 9th, 2007, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
Now, I have spoken to Royal Caribbean about ship law matters, and they are putting uniformed guards on the Soveriegn class ships already. Their job will include interacting with passengers and trying to stop these things before they happen. I don't know for a fact what Carnival is doing right now.
I am very happy to hear this news, as I had posted earlier in this thread about the need for more visible security and more vigorous enforcement on behaviour. There is a new cruise terminal being built at the Houston ship channel that will cater to RCI so perhaps Liz and I will be taking a look at what RCI has to offer in the coming months.

Another interesting thing here lately is the 2 "new" folks and they both have strange threads....ipodz and maciap. It just doesn't pass the smell test.

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Old July 9th, 2007, 11:21 PM
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Carnival already has "uniformed" security officers on the ships. You usually don't see them until at night and they tend to hang out near the clubs and 24 hour pizza counter. They are not armed but they are indeed in security-looking grey uniforms. Very alert and stern faced.

Sometimes you just can't stop or control hormone-crazed young people. All you can do as a parent is pray and hope some of what you have drilled into their hard heads have stuck to one or two of their operating brain cells. If, after all the prayers and all the talks, they still don't listen, don't beat yourself up too much. One of the hardest job in the world is the job of parent to a teenager. Its tough.

And, sometimes, the best lessons learned are the hard ones you learn on your own.
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