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  #31 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuki
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Again, spot on. One simple test would tell us an awful lot. Did anyone from Carnival ever call this guy after a few days and see how he was doing? Also, maybe Carnival could pony up the cost of air transportation home for sick, elderly passengers instead of having the shrug their shoulder, "should of had travel insurance", attitude that many on here some to have.
There was nothing to say that they didn't run several tests on this man. I can't imagine the Dr. would have just heard that there was blood and said "Get off the ship".

Also... I think expecting Carnival to pay for their airfare is just another example of the "they have deeper pockets, so they should pay" attitude that way too many people have and apply to any company they have any kind of dealings with.

It's the same way that people just expect the cruise lines to pony up when for some reason they have to cancel a cruise on short notice. They are very up front about their policies yet people choose to save money in the short term and then expect the cruise lines to cover their bad judgment.

The man was traveling with family, and said he normally buys insurance, but he just didn't this time. The family was ver

The article also did say that the man was escorted by a cruise line employee. I'd guess it was their port agent... and again the article didn't say how much assistance was, or was not, offered.

I AM NOT unsympathetic to the family. I've been in emergency situations with my own family and it's scary to go through, and know how to deal. But somewhere along the line we do have to accept responsibility for our own actions, and think about consequences when we travel.

I would have loved to take my parent on a cruise, and they'd love to go. However, due to health issues that could rear their head, we both realized it was taking too big a chance.
I know you and most on here aren't intentionally being unsympathetic to the family and like you and the others aren't unsympathetic, I'm not a total bleeding heart who thinks big corporations are evil and should bail out every customer every time...But this guy is 89 years old!!! I think most would agree that, for example, an airline doesn't HAVE to assist passengers in finding hotel rooms if they are stranded due to a blizzard at the airport...But most at least try because it's the right thing to do. If for some reason he just absolutely can't remain aboard and MUST have the right to decide stripped of him, you need to make sure he's safe and do everything you can to get him home. That probably means making sure he can get on the next available flight home and get him the hell out of there. If the airlines won't take him due to his health, then he stays on the ship if he wants to, PERIOD. Sure he has family with him but at 89, I'm doubting his son or whoever, is exactly a spring chicken and not likely much of a bodyguard.

On the one hand many are saying the Carnival doctor is probably nothing to write home about and at the same time, the Carnvial doctor's advice should be taken at all costs. Again, it's about risk assessment and what is the SAFEST thing for this guy and his family (and it's about more than his health condition). You really don't think, in a third world country, the "hospital" will take what they see as some deep pocket tourist for every penny they can? Do you think they care or in most cases have ever heard of "travel insurance" and the non-english speaking person at the hospital desk is going to jump right on the phone to the guy's travel insurance company to settle things while the old guy lays on some non-airconditioned army cot with an IV sticking out of his arm? Does anyone think that if you happen to pick the wrong cab driver for the ride to the hospital he won't take you out in a country like that and kill you and take whatever you have? Some may think it's overdramatic to say that but it happens ALL the time.

A few years back, my job sent me to hear what I thought was going to be a boring speaker and topic on the topic of risk assessment. It was actually fascinating and the lesson learned especially when it comes to big companies is "do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do"....Drop a dime and do the SAFEST thing for the customer as FAST as you can do it. Just do the right thing even if it's going to cost, in this case, Carnival a drop in the bucket to keep him safe...Just think of the opportunity Carnival had here to do something positive for their line and cruising just by do their absolute BEST by this guy...He would have been raving about the great customer service and Carnvial wouldn't be shelling out huge money, probably, in legal fees when a suit comes their way. Dropping a few dollars on this guys behalf would have paid off for Carnival in huge dividends in reputation...But these days, most people find it impossible to see it that way.

I agree with all about one thing, it's a lesson for everyone. I agree the family should have planned better. While I still disagree that travel insurance is the key issue here, they should of had it. Overall though, I think if even part of this story is true, Carnvial made a horrible call that could have cost some lives.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 05:27 PM
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just a little food for thought. what says a cruise ship should even have an infirmary, planes don't, trains, don't, hotels don't, resturants don't? cruise ships have them as a courtesy to cruisers. most ships are relativly close to land at all times and somone could easily be removed by coast gaurd if needed. they are set up to treat sea sickness, minor scrapes and cuts, that kind of stuff. i am no doctor but if i had an 89 year old man come to me bleeding from both ends i would highly recomend he get to a real medical facility 3rd world country or not. are the doctors on cruise ships even doctors or or they physicians assistants that have limited skills? surly we don't know the whole entire story on this one
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 05:48 PM
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As someone in the medical community, in particular the cardiovascular area, I find the statement "simple coronary or simple heart attack" hard to accept from a lay person. There is no simple heart attack. There are not sufficient facilities or equipment to fully diagnose the severity of ACS on any vessel, save the Navy ships, of which I have personal knowlege..
Bloodwork for enzymes, 12 lead ECG, nuclear stress test, and coronary angiograms are the standard of care for ACS.

There was a thread in the past where members were advised against making legal judgements when they are not lawyers. The same should apply here for medical professionals.

I won't be calling lawyers hacks on here and I don't like a lawyer calling a doctor a hack.

Medical professionals make tough decisions every minute of the day. The only ones to question these decisions are the patients and lawyers. When you are the one who has to make these tough calls then you have a say.

This passenger should not be traveling without insurance. I do agree that the ship should have made more effort to ensure this passenger boarded a plane for home within 24 hrs.

There are US military facilities in the region of Honduras and given his age this passenger was likely a veteran entitled to military facility treatment. Calling the Coast Guard or the US Navy Medical Command would have been a prudent step.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 05:56 PM
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I know you and most on here aren't intentionally being unsympathetic to the family
That's totally inaccurate. I am very sympathetic to the man, and what happened to him. I am unsympathetic on some points probably because 1. I've been there 2. his family who should have been responsible for him, did nothing but show bad judgment.

I've done some searches, and come up with at least more sides to this story.
- Carnival did send him ashore with a Carnival employee (most likely a port agent who generally handles these types of things) The man and his son still refused to go to the hospital.
- Carnival did offer assistance onboard, including free phone calls if the family wanted to look at flight options. The family ignored all offers because they were still insisting they wanted to remain on the ship.

As for rgwiaz question... the Doctors onboard the ships are Physicians, not any type of medical assistants, and there are trained nurses onboard. But in most cases they aren't ER specialists, nor surgeons. And there's no requirement for them to have US accepted degrees. In fact most are trained elsewhere.

I think some of the folks who say the man should have been left to complete the cruise on the ship have lost sight of the symptoms he presented with ---- bleeding from the mouth and blood in his stool.
There obviously was something wrong!

I also have personal experience with this... as it happed to my father a few months back. After many Cat scans, an MRI and a colonscopy, in the hospital , they still couldn't determine what the cause was.
But he was getting blood transfusions on a regular basis to keep him alive.
Eventually the bleeding did stop. But even with all the diagnostic tools available in a modern hospital they could not determine the actual problem.

Diagnosis of problems a patient is presenting isn't an easy task. And in this case I have no doubt the Dr. was taking the path that with his training he believed to be the best for his patient..... not because he thought it would be more fun to put these people off the ship.

Could his diagnosis be wrong? SURE! But I think it's also wrong do presume he made it because he didn't want to be bothered by the situation.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 06:07 PM
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rqwiaz,
Here's some food for thought for you. A cruise ship is basically a floating small town. Would you live in a town with no medical help? I certainly would not. Planes trains and hotels are seldom away from good medical facilities for more than an hour or two, a few hours at most. Contrary to what you say, ships are frequently not "relatively close to land" at all. The notion that the coast guard is always handy to take a passenger in distress off is silly. I have been on ships in the middle of the Pacific ocean, In Antarctica, In the third world where no modern medical facilities are available at all and there is no coast guard for thousands of miles.

There are frequently elderly people aboard cruise ships, indeed they are the bread and butter of the cruise industry. On a week long cruise, just as you would expect in a town of 2,500 people, it is not unusual for someone to have a heat attack or a stroke. Indeed it is not uncommon for someone to die. It is very common for guests to have severe sunburn, or jelly fish stings or cuts or sprained ankles and all forms of injuries and unforeseen ailments.

Finally, there is a centuries old tradition of medical facilities and doctors being available on ships carrying passengers at sea.

And yes, the doctors on cruise ships are in fact real doctors, licenced to practice medicine usually, in my experience either in the U.S., Canada or the U.K. Some of them are very competent indeed. I have seen them treat infections fractures serious sprains, various forms of injuries, suture cuts, prescribe antibiotics and on one cruise administer dialysis to kidney patients. They are certainly capable on many ships at least of doing emergency surgery, such as an emergency appendectomy.

so, "...what says a cruise ship should even have an infirmary...?" the answer to your question is threefold:

Tradition
Common sense
Demand of the cruising public
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old March 6th, 2008, 06:32 PM
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Phil and liz,
you say, "Bloodwork for enzymes, 12 lead ECG, nuclear stress test, and coronary angiograms are the standard of care for ACS."

Yeah, and those things are available in the local 'hospital' in Roatan or in half a dozen south American ports where I have been, or in African ports or South Pacific ones? You've gotta be kidding. Some of them don't even have antibiotics or rudimentary sanitation! One day and this man would have been in Tampa Florida! His life was unnecessarily risked just to avoid liability for Carnival, IMHO. You don't have to agree but that's the way I see it.

You say, "When you are the one who has to make these tough calls then you have a say."

Really!! I've got a flash for you!! I'm a consumer of those 'medical decisions.' I don't want to be a victim. As long as 90,000 Americans a year are dying from 'medical mistakes' I'll be as critical as I please. I was a judge for 5 years who saw some of the appalling results of many of those medical mistakes. Please be advised that there are frequently more points of view than your own. You should consider them all.

For your information, I have never sued a physician, nor would I, but I have represented several who were sued for malpractice. I am not your enemy.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 07:11 PM
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Kuki, I was going to suggest that carnival probably had a representative with him when he was moved off the ship to make certain he had options. Glad you beat me to it and showed he did.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 08:05 PM
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Kuki...

You're right about the sympathetic line...That was a mistake while I was writing quickly and I meant to say exactly how you put it...I know you and almost everyone on here is very sympathetic to the guy and his family even though some of us disagree on how things were handled...My goof on that one
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
Phil and liz,
you say, "Bloodwork for enzymes, 12 lead ECG, nuclear stress test, and coronary angiograms are the standard of care for ACS."

Yeah, and those things are available in the local 'hospital' in Roatan or in half a dozen south American ports where I have been, or in African ports or South Pacific ones? You've gotta be kidding. Some of them don't even have antibiotics or rudimentary sanitation! .
I guess maybe you should rethink traveling to these harsh areas in your future. you never know when you might require emergency care that a cruise line can not give you. What if your appendix burst, you had a heart attack (no line in the world would keep you on board) or you got extremely ill in some other way. You'd find yourself in a 3rd world country so fast your head would spin.

What im getting at, there is always a risk when you travel. You accept some risk when you do so. Being ill on a cruise ship and expecting someone to diagnose and fix the issue when they arent equiped to do so is just plain silly.

If you were in Jamaica or Africa and you broke your leg or had a heart attack...where would you go??? wait it out in your all inclusive resort??? Hope it gets all better???

I'm very confused. I still think they did the right thing.
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Old March 7th, 2008, 12:21 PM
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Nursy Poo,
Of course there is always a risk when you travel. I guess you didn't read all of my posts on the subject. My point is that I have seen medical emergencies in third world areas where the ship's medical staff acted with more courage and with better judgment than to simply dump a sick man to the vagaries of third world medicine. if your experience has been different, so be it.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 01:38 PM
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About 10 years ago, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law went on a cruise. He was not feeling all that hot, but they decided to go anyway.

On the cruise he started bleeding internally and was air lifted off the ship to Columbia. The hospital/doctors refused to do anything until they had $10,000 USD cash; no credit card, no checks, cash.

My sister-in-law had retired from IMB as a vice president so she make a call. That day, a gent flew to Columbia with a suitcase filled with $100 bills. The doctors could not stop the bleeding and he died.

Now things start to get dicey. Transporting a body from Columbia back to the USA.

The bottom line is that sometimes you don't have any say in where you are going to get medical attention once you leave the ship. The ship's medical staff did all that they could. So, do you let him die on the ship on in some foreign hospital? The ship's medical staff felt that he would get better medical care in Columbia than on the ship.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 02:02 PM
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Default Should be some kind of waiver...


If person is not contagious and is not putting anyone else in harms way, and chooses NOT to get off the ship to seek medical attention as directed or advised by ship doctor.. Isn't there some kind of waiver they can sign to allow them to stay onboard against Ship Doctors advise and accept all liabilites for doing so?
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Old March 7th, 2008, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarAndShar

If person is not contagious and is not putting anyone else in harms way, and chooses NOT to get off the ship to seek medical attention as directed or advised by ship doctor.. Isn't there some kind of waiver they can sign to allow them to stay onboard against Ship Doctors advise and accept all liabilites for doing so?
~S
No. If the Captain orders you off, off you go.

"5(b) Carnival and the Master each reserves the right to refuse passage, disembark or confine to a stateroom any Guest whose physical or mental condition, or behavior would be considered in the sole opinion of the Captain and/or the ship's physician to constitute a risk to the Guest's own well-being or that of any other Guest or crew member."

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_T..._contract.aspx
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old March 7th, 2008, 02:13 PM
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......No. If the Captain orders you off, off you go.
It wasn't me......I had nothing to do with it!



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Old March 7th, 2008, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Should be some kind of waiver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainEdwardJohnSmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Shark
......No. If the Captain orders you off, off you go.
It wasn't me......I had nothing to do with it!



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Of course not... 8)
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Old March 7th, 2008, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Should be some kind of waiver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Shark
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarAndShar

If person is not contagious and is not putting anyone else in harms way, and chooses NOT to get off the ship to seek medical attention as directed or advised by ship doctor.. Isn't there some kind of waiver they can sign to allow them to stay onboard against Ship Doctors advise and accept all liabilites for doing so?
~S
No. If the Captain orders you off, off you go.

"5(b) Carnival and the Master each reserves the right to refuse passage, disembark or confine to a stateroom any Guest whose physical or mental condition, or behavior would be considered in the sole opinion of the Captain and/or the ship's physician to constitute a risk to the Guest's own well-being or that of any other Guest or crew member."

http://www.carnival.com/CMS/Static_T..._contract.aspx
thank you, cut and dry, said it all. the guests own well being was at risk. Just sorry it was in honduras instead of Mexico or some other more modern country.
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Old March 7th, 2008, 09:16 PM
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We can all chose to disagree or agree, each his own. We all have opinions...

The fact is its the cruise lines choice and they had a difficult decision to make. I'm absolutley sure they took no pleasure in putting a 90 yr old man off the ship. I'm sure the TRULEY had his best interest at heart. It was very unfortunate that it happened in Honduras, but that was just where it happened. That doesnt appear to be anyones fault. I'm also more than a little sure that Carnival probably realized they could get flack for what happened, and still thought about the passangers safety.

there are facilities in honduras, now mind you there is the kind of care you would recieve in a 3rd world country with little money and then there are facilities that cost more money that the basic citizen doesnt visit. could be if he had money he could have been seen there, but no matter, the MD thought it was beyond the cruise lines means to treat, and he had a decision to make. It sucks for that family. I still wish they could have sought treatment SOMEWHERE before a 3rd flight and shuttle back to his personal physician. Sounds a little stubborn
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Old March 8th, 2008, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
One simple test would tell us an awful lot. Did anyone from Carnival ever call this guy after a few days and see how he was doing? Also, maybe Carnival could pony up the cost of air transportation home for sick, elderly passengers instead of having the shrug their shoulder, "should of had travel insurance", attitude that many on here some to have. I know that would really take such a huge chunk out of their billions, but somehow, I think they could manage
I agree! Carnival's deep pockets should have ponied up for air fare, etc. That would save me so much money on my cruises! No more insurance. If something happens the big THEY are responsible. .. I like it..

Oh.. Guess the price of cruising for all of us would then have to go up.. Someone's gotta pay.. so do we pay a reasonable price to protect our responsible selves, or do we spread it out and all pitch it into a pot to cover the masses? .. little more money, but what the hey!
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Old March 8th, 2008, 01:33 AM
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JJones,
I don't know what your age is, or what your circumstances are, but apparently you can't see yourself or your loved ones in some sort of medical emergency. I turned 66 today, so I guess I can.

Carnival Corporation Owns a number of cruise lines that depend almost entirely on older, upscale, repeat, cruisers. These lines include Holland America, Seaborn and Cunard and to some extent Princess as well. Without these older, repeat passengers, Carnival Corporation would be bankrupt -- out of business. The Sr. Cruisers of whom I speak, travel by cruise ship on longer more exotic routes to all corners of the world. Younger, entry level, Caribbean beach cruisers cannot sustain a viable cruise industry, at least not as it is presently constituted.

The older repeat cruisers, the bread and butter of the industry, choose cruising as their preferred means of travel, at least in part, because they are assured that each ship they sail on will have a competent physician and reasonably good medical care for most medical emergencies. Otherwise, believe me, they would stay at home or choose another way to travel.

It is, therefor, decidedly NOT in Carnival Corp's financial interest to treat people as this old man was treated, or as the old gentleman who was unceremoniously dumped to die in Columbia according to one of the posts was treated. With that, you cannot argue.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 02:13 AM
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The older repeat cruisers, the bread and butter of the industry, choose cruising as their preferred means of travel, at least in part, because they are assured that each ship they sail on will have a competent physician and reasonably good medical care for most medical emergencies. Otherwise, believe me, they would stay at home or choose another way to travel.
Rich.. whether Carnival , or any other line... whoever believes the ships are equipped to hand any serious medical emergency is dead wrong.

Minor problems, like broken limbs, can be handled. Need an appendectomy or something similar and you're in serious trouble on a ship... unless they can evacuate you or are close to a port.

The very best ability might be to stablize a patient with some conditions for a short time. Sadly, to expect any of them can do any more than that is a fantasy.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 03:36 AM
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Old March 8th, 2008, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuki
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The older repeat cruisers, the bread and butter of the industry, choose cruising as their preferred means of travel, at least in part, because they are assured that each ship they sail on will have a competent physician and reasonably good medical care for most medical emergencies. Otherwise, believe me, they would stay at home or choose another way to travel.
Rich.. whether Carnival , or any other line... whoever believes the ships are equipped to hand any serious medical emergency is dead wrong.

Minor problems, like broken limbs, can be handled. Need an appendectomy or something similar and you're in serious trouble on a ship... unless they can evacuate you or are close to a port.

The very best ability might be to stablize a patient with some conditions for a short time. Sadly, to expect any of them can do any more than that is a fantasy.
And what is so hard to understand about these pearls of wisdom?
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Old March 8th, 2008, 07:43 AM
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for those of you who feel Carnival should have paid for this mans transportation (and assumably his son also) to a "better" hospital to his liking...ok, i'll bite.

Now....who benefits from this? What about the man who's leg is broken and wants to be seen by an ortho dr asap in the States? Should his travel expenses be paid also? What about the woman who is suffering debilitating migraines and wants to see her neurologist in Texas today...does Carnival pay for her to get home?

All the above "could" be considered life threatening...fat emboli's, brain tumors, bleeds, etc...all potential problems that could be argued. If carnival pays for one transport, it will need to be prepared to pay for everyones illnesses and expenses. THen hey, we'd all save on insurance But like another poster stated, those 800.00 pp balcony suites will now cost us 1400 to help cover costs of people not smart enough to be responsible enough to cover their own butts with travel insurance!

Ok so i'm being a little sarcastic here. But honestly i am having trouble fathoming why a lot of people here think the cruise line should be responsible for him NOT having vacation insurance. I'm sure the insurance companies will love being put out of business by the kind heartedness of the cruise lines paying for everyones misfortunes, and the other passengers loving being rerouted to another port because someone was ill and didnt like the hospital in the port he was in earlier that day.

I'm rambling, but the scenerio's are endless. Mayhem and the end of the world as i know it.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 09:37 AM
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i agree completly with nurseypoo5
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Old March 8th, 2008, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nurseypoo5
for those of you who feel Carnival should have paid for this mans transportation (and assumably his son also) to a "better" hospital to his liking...ok, i'll bite.

Now....who benefits from this? What about the man who's leg is broken and wants to be seen by an ortho dr asap in the States? Should his travel expenses be paid also? What about the woman who is suffering debilitating migraines and wants to see her neurologist in Texas today...does Carnival pay for her to get home?

All the above "could" be considered life threatening...fat emboli's, brain tumors, bleeds, etc...all potential problems that could be argued. If carnival pays for one transport, it will need to be prepared to pay for everyones illnesses and expenses. THen hey, we'd all save on insurance But like another poster stated, those 800.00 pp balcony suites will now cost us 1400 to help cover costs of people not smart enough to be responsible enough to cover their own butts with travel insurance!

Ok so i'm being a little sarcastic here. But honestly i am having trouble fathoming why a lot of people here think the cruise line should be responsible for him NOT having vacation insurance. I'm sure the insurance companies will love being put out of business by the kind heartedness of the cruise lines paying for everyones misfortunes, and the other passengers loving being rerouted to another port because someone was ill and didnt like the hospital in the port he was in earlier that day.

I'm rambling, but the scenerio's are endless. Mayhem and the end of the world as i know it.
Sounds like a type of socialized health care that a certain politician or two wants us to have. That's the answer, have Carnival pay for it. LMMBO.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 02:58 PM
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As for me, I don't want carnival "to pay for it." I am not a fan of socialized medicine. And I certainly agree that there is no excuse for not having insurance. That's just plain dumb.

As for what they can or can't do, that depends. If decent medical facilities are nearby, of course that is the preferred course of action. But that is not always the case. For a ship, loaded with septuagenarians, that will be out of reach for several days -- say in mid-Pacific, or Antarctica, or on the African coast where there are no properly equipped medical facilities, to fail to have a competent physician, a supply of clot busting drugs, and minimal surgical facilities would amount to negligence per se. As I said before, it is very much in the financial interest of the cruise line to have such things -- both from the marketing point of view and the liability point of view.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
As for me, I don't want carnival "to pay for it." I am not a fan of socialized medicine. And I certainly agree that there is no excuse for not having insurance. That's just plain dumb.

As for what they can or can't do, that depends. If decent medical facilities are nearby, of course that is the preferred course of action. But that is not always the case. For a ship, loaded with septuagenarians, that will be out of reach for several days -- say in mid-Pacific, or Antarctica, or on the African coast where there are no properly equipped medical facilities, to fail to have a competent physician, a supply of clot busting drugs, and minimal surgical facilities would amount to negligence per se. As I said before, it is very much in the financial interest of the cruise line to have such things -- both from the marketing point of view and the liability point of view.
Point taken. Then again, who says that the ships do not carry clot busters, small surgical supplies (sutures etc), things you might find in a free standing urgent care clinic, such as iv fluids and such, but remember even free standing urgent care clinics send the serious patients by ambulance to a hospital.

I really do not think the ships have no resources to help those in acute distress. Perhaps to assist in someone suffering a heart attack, the first few minutes mean life and death. But I also know for a fact that the ship will be getting them OFF that ship at the first opportune moment. They wont be shipping them a few hundred miles away from the nearest facility, they would send them to the nearest facility, by boat, helicopter whatever.

I agree it sucked to be let off a port you didnt want to be let off of, but it happened, and it happened because they thought he needed immediate medical attention, the kind the ship isnt prepared to offer. Clot busters would have killed him if he had had a bleed...obviously, so that argument is null, but if he had had a bleed requiring him to be opened up and operated on, its not feasible to assume a ships Dr could do surgery like that. Who is the Anesthesiologist? What OR would they do this in? Who would assist? Anything possibly requiring that sort of care would have to be taken else where. The diagnostic tools needed to sort a bleed out are large, and often require exploratory surgery. Carnival just doesnt have that sort of facility on board, nor does the Queen Mary for that matter.

Again, i think if someone were having a heart attack, and they were away from port, then i do honestly believe the Dr would do everything in his power, and would have some of the things your talking about, but no matter if its Miami or Timbuktoo, that patients getting shipped off at the first oppurtunity! It could save his life rather then ending it.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 04:00 PM
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"who says that the ships do not carry clot busters, small surgical supplies (sutures etc), things you might find in a free standing urgent care clinic, such as iv fluids and such,..."

Nursey, no one says -- in fact from having the ship's physician as a table mate for part of a recent far East cruise, I know they do have those things and in that case, certainly the skill to use them. (It was Holland America, which of course is a Carnival company)

Finally, as I said it depends on where you are. Where is the place you would off load them to if you are 1000 miles from the nearest island in the middle of the pacific? Or you are in the Antarctic, three days from the nearest medical facility better than what's on the ship? (I've been in both of those places, and I know for a fact that if someone would have had an attack of acute appendicitis, it could have been yanked on ship saving the patient's life.) I'm sure you will also agree that there are many places in the world where getting them off the ship is not a step up. Many lack even hypodermic needles, or basic sanitation. There are countless places on this planet where people die by tens of thousands from malaria, dysentery or infections, and where a burst appendix is still a death sentence. You won't be dumping any guests in those places -- if you want to stay in business.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 04:48 PM
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One simple test would tell us an awful lot. Did anyone from Carnival ever call this guy after a few days and see how he was doing? Also, maybe Carnival could pony up the cost of air transportation home for sick, elderly passengers instead of having the shrug their shoulder, "should of had travel insurance", attitude that many on here some to have. I know that would really take such a huge chunk out of their billions, but somehow, I think they could manage
I agree! Carnival's deep pockets should have ponied up for air fare, etc. That would save me so much money on my cruises! No more insurance. If something happens the big THEY are responsible. .. I like it..

Oh.. Guess the price of cruising for all of us would then have to go up.. Someone's gotta pay.. so do we pay a reasonable price to protect our responsible selves, or do we spread it out and all pitch it into a pot to cover the masses? .. little more money, but what the hey!
Why don't we at least be logical. I really don't think that if the cruise lines give complimentary airfare home to very ill, ELDERLY passengers stranded in third world countries (or God forbid their families with them) that it's going to drive the price of cruising up one bit. How many times a year does this scenario play out?....very rarely. Yes, I know people get ill on cruises all the time and action has to be taken to get them to hospitals etc. But 90 yr olds in Honduras, I'm guessing, is pretty rare. Hopefully, after you visit this thread, you'll visit the ones asking how to get free upgrades on cruises and jump all over those folks....I mean, those folks are trying to con Carnival too aren't they and driving up the cost of your next cruise to a completely unaffordable level just like coach airfare home for this guy would have?? If it's out of question for them to pay for it (and we can debate that til we're blue in the face), maybe they could have at least made sure he got somewhere to make travel arrangements so he could pay for it himself.

You're right. We should all give this 90 yr old guy a strong lecture on personal responsibility. I'm guessing he's probably a war veteran, has raised a family, worked hard, sacrificed and contributed more than alot of us put together...Just a hunch. I think the idea is that when a person is 90, we cut them a little slack. But for all of you who stick your self righteous chests out and sound the personal responsibility alarm, I realize you don't discriminate due to age. I think next time I get a call at work about a senior who has been phone scammed, I'll just tell them they are out of luck and refuse to take a report from them. After all, we put warnings on the news every year to be careful about these things. I'll tell them it was their PERSONAL responsibility to know about the scam and no tax money can be spent investigating their incident.

Again, if Carnival had just gone above and beyond for this guy everyone would be cheering them on as the greatest company in the world...NO one would be complaining that they gave him free anything, just praising them for doing the right thing. Of course, I guess they had their "gate agent" tag along with him for awhile. That was awfully diplomatic of them.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ready2board
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJones
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One simple test would tell us an awful lot. Did anyone from Carnival ever call this guy after a few days and see how he was doing? Also, maybe Carnival could pony up the cost of air transportation home for sick, elderly passengers instead of having the shrug their shoulder, "should of had travel insurance", attitude that many on here some to have. I know that would really take such a huge chunk out of their billions, but somehow, I think they could manage
I agree! Carnival's deep pockets should have ponied up for air fare, etc. That would save me so much money on my cruises! No more insurance. If something happens the big THEY are responsible. .. I like it..

Oh.. Guess the price of cruising for all of us would then have to go up.. Someone's gotta pay.. so do we pay a reasonable price to protect our responsible selves, or do we spread it out and all pitch it into a pot to cover the masses? .. little more money, but what the hey!
Why don't we at least be logical. I really don't think that if the cruise lines give complimentary airfare home to very ill, ELDERLY passengers stranded in third world countries (or God forbid their families with them) that it's going to drive the price of cruising up one bit. How many times a year does this scenario play out?....very rarely. Yes, I know people get ill on cruises all the time and action has to be taken to get them to hospitals etc. But 90 yr olds in Honduras, I'm guessing, is pretty rare. Hopefully, after you visit this thread, you'll visit the ones asking how to get free upgrades on cruises and jump all over those folks....I mean, those folks are trying to con Carnival too aren't they and driving up the cost of your next cruise to a completely unaffordable level just like coach airfare home for this guy would have?? If it's out of question for them to pay for it (and we can debate that til we're blue in the face), maybe they could have at least made sure he got somewhere to make travel arrangements so he could pay for it himself.

You're right. We should all give this 90 yr old guy a strong lecture on personal responsibility. I'm guessing he's probably a war veteran, has raised a family, worked hard, sacrificed and contributed more than alot of us put together...Just a hunch. I think the idea is that when a person is 90, we cut them a little slack. But for all of you who stick your self righteous chests out and sound the personal responsibility alarm, I realize you don't discriminate due to age. I think next time I get a call at work about a senior who has been phone scammed, I'll just tell them they are out of luck and refuse to take a report from them. After all, we put warnings on the news every year to be careful about these things. I'll tell them it was their PERSONAL responsibility to know about the scam and no tax money can be spent investigating their incident.

Again, if Carnival had just gone above and beyond for this guy everyone would be cheering them on as the greatest company in the world...NO one would be complaining that they gave him free anything, just praising them for doing the right thing. Of course, I guess they had their "gate agent" tag along with him for awhile. That was awfully diplomatic of them.
Spoken like a true socialist, IMO.

How often do these events happen? How about on each of the last two Carnival Freedom cruises - check out John Heald's blog for proof. How about on two of my five Smokefree Paradise cruises - and that is the one's that I know of.

My guess is that this type of situation happens much more frequently than is advertised - what we have here is a family that chose to take a risk (travel without travel insurance at least covering the 90 year old passenger).

This situation is no different than the 20-something year old who has to choose between a hot car or an economy car and health insurance policy. He chooses to buy the hot car, then expects the government to cover his health expenses when he totals the car.

Life is full of decisions - we should be responsible for the decisions that we make. In this case, the family decided to take the risk of traveling with a 90-year old and no insurance to cover the chance that the 90-year old could have health issues. They suffered the consequences of their own decision.
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