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  #61 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 11:15 AM
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I am sorry this gentleman had this happen to him but one has to wonder ... who are these extremely elderly people thinking of when they book these cruises to "third world countries"?

Are they thinking of the other 3,000 cruisers who could have had their cruise completely ruined like on the Holiday a few weeks ago when it had to return to port for an illness (missing Progresso) and then had to back track AGAIN for another emergency evac by helicopter causing the passengers to miss most of their port time in Cozumel.

And who "eats" the cost of reimbursing port charges to every passenger and fielding the hundreds of complaint letters demanding discounts or reimbursements for having their cruise ruined...not to mention the "bad will" it created among cruisers on that ship who were not seasoned enough to understand this can happen??

Carnival already has a minimum "age limit" (6 months of age ~12 months of age for transatlantic cruises).....perhaps they should have a "maximum" age limit?? Just a thought...

Just for the record, the doctor did exactly what he should have done. If someone is bleeding from their mouth and rectum...there is a problem.
My brother in law was minutes away from death from a "free bleed" and the only warning sign he got was just a little blood in his stool and he wasn't 89 years old. He still "felt ok" and if my sister had not insisted that he go to the emergency room immediately...he would be dead.

True, Roatan may not have "our standards"...but when you need a blood transfusion that will save your life...I doubt someone is going to say "never mind...keep your blood...I don't like your "standards." We have had friends who have been missionaries for years in this region and those "poor standards" have served them well.

The bottom line is that the passenger presented what could have been a life threatening case to this doctor and he did what was in the best interest of the cruiser to preserve his life. Especially in a world where if the doctor had allowed him to stay onboard and he bleed out and died...this family would have filed a multi million dollar lawsuit for neglect.
Even if they had signed a waiver, their "excuse" would have been "We only signed the waiver, because the doctor told us it was not that bad."

This is an obvious case where the cruise line can not win....so they erred on the side of preserving a man's life and now folks want to say "shame on them".... how sad.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 11:51 AM
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well put lhp
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Old March 9th, 2008, 12:21 PM
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The passenger who had to get off of the ship spent at least a few days if not more in the hospital in Tampa. Therefore, something had to be wrong with him. Carnival was not wrong for asking the person to leave the ship. Several years ago, my father had to leave the Lengend due to Carnival missplacing his dialysis solutions. We had lunch and went to the life boat drill. I left the ship with him in Ft Lauderdale. We did not have travel insurance and was aware of the risk that we were taking. We spent the next two days on the phone with Carnival and Baxter, getting passport, and securing a flight and hotel to Panama. Carnival reimburesed us all of our expenses, cruise fares for myself, dad, and mom(she stayed on the ship). We are still sailing Carnival. This past December my broter and his wfie went our group. Dad is now on hemo dialysis, which he did iin Cozumel and Grand Cayman. My brother's wife was told to get off of the ship in Grand Cayman because she went to the infirmary shortly before the ship was to depart due to bleeding. Were we mad with Carnival, no. She could have gone with my father to the hospital in Grand Cayman since she was having poblems tha day. Also, on that Victory sailing we had to arrive early to Cozumel and Grand Caymen due to medical emergencies twice. Carnival was not going to take a chance when they were already in port and passenger could get off. They hd no insurance and passport. Carnival gav them a letter to give to customs stating that they were on a cruise. Lucky for them the customs agent in Miami went to school with one of our cousins and was easy on them.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Carnival Cruise Lines to sick passenger: Get off our shi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe323
From USA TODAY:

Feeling sick on a cruise? Be careful what you tell the ship's doctor, lest you suddenly find yourself abandoned on an island far from home.

That, it seems, is the take-away from a front page story this morning in the Tampa Tribune, which reports that Carnival Cruise Lines put a sick passenger ashore on the Honduran island of Roatan last week rather than try to treat him on board.

The paper says 89-year-old Jack Clevenger was celebrating his birthday with his family on the Carnival Legend when he experienced some strange symptoms including blood in his mouth and in his stool. He visited the ship's doctor, who concluded he had internal bleeding and told him he needed to seek medical attention off the ship. The paper says the line then asked him to leave at the next port, which was Roatan.

"They treated us with utter disregard for our safety," Clevenger tells the paper, noting that he and his son had to scramble to find a way off the island and back to the United States on their own. "If we hadn't have had a little bit of money with us, we'd still be in Honduras."

A Carnival spokeswoman told the paper the vessel was about to embark on a two-day sea crossing where it would have been tough to evacuate Clevenger if his condition worsened. Putting him off the ship was the most prudent course.

The Tribune says it took Clevenger and his son two days, three flights and $2,500 to get home to Florida, where Clevenger checked into a hospital. The paper says Clevenger did not have travel insurance, which would have covered some or all of the cost of getting him from the ship to the nearest hospital (or, in some cases, all the way home).
wow.. i've been on that boat... i'm not sure what i think but i'm not like omg i'm never doing carnival again.. i could never do that!
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 03:31 PM
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It would be nice to know if this pax was a vet. I always carry my VA card with me. There are US military services available to that area.

Also, some advice for the region from US gov't is below.....the services from locals are not great down there and do require cash.

Soto Cano Air Base, Honduras
Health care services are performed by the Medical Element. The 1st Battalion, 228th Aviation Regiment performs a variety of airlift support missions throughout Central and South America with UH-60 Black Hawk and CH-47 Chinook helicopters.

U.S. Coast Guard Operations Center by radio or INMARSAT at 305-415-6800. Anyone needing more information can also contact the U.S. Embassy during working hours and request to speak with the U.S. Military Group (USMILGP) office.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1135.html

MEDICAL FACILITIES AND HEALTH INFORMATION: Medical care in Honduras varies greatly in quality and availability. Outside Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula, medical care is inadequate to address complex situations. Support staff facilities and necessary equipment and supplies are not up to U.S. standards anywhere in Honduras. Facilities for advanced surgical procedures are not available. Wide areas of the country, including the popular tourist areas of the Bay Islands, do not have a general surgery hospital. Ambulance services are limited in major cities and almost non-existent elsewhere.
MEDICAL INSURANCE: The Department of State strongly urges Americans to consult with their medical insurance company prior to traveling abroad to confirm whether their policy applies overseas and whether it will cover emergency expenses such as a medical evacuation. U.S. medical insurance plans seldom cover health costs incurred outside the U.S. unless supplemental coverage is purchased. Furthermore, U.S. Medicare and Medicaid programs do not provide payment for medical services outside the U.S. However, many travel agents and private companies offer insurance plans that will cover health care expenses incurred overseas including emergency services such as medical evacuations. It is important to ensure that you have adequate medical evacuation coverage prior to your trip to Honduras. When making a decision regarding health insurance, Americans should consider that many foreign doctors and hospitals require payment in cash prior to providing service and that a medical evacuation to the U.S. may cost tens of thousands of dollars. Uninsured travelers who require medical care overseas often face extreme difficulties. When consulting with your insurer prior to your trip, ascertain whether payment will be made to the overseas healthcare provider or whether you will be reimbursed later for expenses you incur. Some insurance policies also include coverage for psychiatric treatment and for disposition of remains in the event of death.
Useful information on medical emergencies abroad, including overseas insurance programs, is provided in the Department of State's Bureau of Consular Affairs brochure, Medical Information for Americans Traveling Abroad, available via the Bureau of Consular Affairs home page.

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Old March 9th, 2008, 03:36 PM
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lhp,
With all due respect you are missing some vital facts. You are evidently an entry level cruiser who seldom ventures outside the relatively tame (and somewhat boring) Caribbean.

FACTS:
A very large segment of the cruise industry depends almost entirely on elderly repeat cruisers, who cruise to all corners of the world. As a general rule, the longer and more exotic the cruise, the older the average age of the passengers. I have been on several 30 day plus cruises where many of the ports were in third world countries and the average age of the cruisers was well over 70, perhaps 75! I hardly think that Cunard, Holland America, Crystal and other 5 star lines want to go bankrupt by imposing an "age limit." That would kill their business. Passenger carrying freighters do have an age limit usually 75 or 78, but that is because they have no elevators, no doctors and no health facilities.

Besides lhp, some elderly folks are in remarkably good shape, and senior citizens are NOT the only ones who are prone to health problems or developing health problems.

I hope this will help answer your question, "... who are these extremely elderly people thinking of when they book these cruises to "third world countries"?" They are the very lifeblood of the cruise industry, that's who they are. People of all ages enjoy our cruise addiction. It is not restricted to the young. Far from it.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old March 9th, 2008, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSFP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ready2board
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJones
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One simple test would tell us an awful lot. Did anyone from Carnival ever call this guy after a few days and see how he was doing? Also, maybe Carnival could pony up the cost of air transportation home for sick, elderly passengers instead of having the shrug their shoulder, "should of had travel insurance", attitude that many on here some to have. I know that would really take such a huge chunk out of their billions, but somehow, I think they could manage
I agree! Carnival's deep pockets should have ponied up for air fare, etc. That would save me so much money on my cruises! No more insurance. If something happens the big THEY are responsible. .. I like it..

Oh.. Guess the price of cruising for all of us would then have to go up.. Someone's gotta pay.. so do we pay a reasonable price to protect our responsible selves, or do we spread it out and all pitch it into a pot to cover the masses? .. little more money, but what the hey!
Why don't we at least be logical. I really don't think that if the cruise lines give complimentary airfare home to very ill, ELDERLY passengers stranded in third world countries (or God forbid their families with them) that it's going to drive the price of cruising up one bit. How many times a year does this scenario play out?....very rarely. Yes, I know people get ill on cruises all the time and action has to be taken to get them to hospitals etc. But 90 yr olds in Honduras, I'm guessing, is pretty rare. Hopefully, after you visit this thread, you'll visit the ones asking how to get free upgrades on cruises and jump all over those folks....I mean, those folks are trying to con Carnival too aren't they and driving up the cost of your next cruise to a completely unaffordable level just like coach airfare home for this guy would have?? If it's out of question for them to pay for it (and we can debate that til we're blue in the face), maybe they could have at least made sure he got somewhere to make travel arrangements so he could pay for it himself.

You're right. We should all give this 90 yr old guy a strong lecture on personal responsibility. I'm guessing he's probably a war veteran, has raised a family, worked hard, sacrificed and contributed more than alot of us put together...Just a hunch. I think the idea is that when a person is 90, we cut them a little slack. But for all of you who stick your self righteous chests out and sound the personal responsibility alarm, I realize you don't discriminate due to age. I think next time I get a call at work about a senior who has been phone scammed, I'll just tell them they are out of luck and refuse to take a report from them. After all, we put warnings on the news every year to be careful about these things. I'll tell them it was their PERSONAL responsibility to know about the scam and no tax money can be spent investigating their incident.

Again, if Carnival had just gone above and beyond for this guy everyone would be cheering them on as the greatest company in the world...NO one would be complaining that they gave him free anything, just praising them for doing the right thing. Of course, I guess they had their "gate agent" tag along with him for awhile. That was awfully diplomatic of them.
Spoken like a true socialist, IMO.

How often do these events happen? How about on each of the last two Carnival Freedom cruises - check out John Heald's blog for proof. How about on two of my five Smokefree Paradise cruises - and that is the one's that I know of.

My guess is that this type of situation happens much more frequently than is advertised - what we have here is a family that chose to take a risk (travel without travel insurance at least covering the 90 year old passenger).

This situation is no different than the 20-something year old who has to choose between a hot car or an economy car and health insurance policy. He chooses to buy the hot car, then expects the government to cover his health expenses when he totals the car.

Life is full of decisions - we should be responsible for the decisions that we make. In this case, the family decided to take the risk of traveling with a 90-year old and no insurance to cover the chance that the 90-year old could have health issues. They suffered the consequences of their own decision.
Wait a minute now. Why are you dragging the elderly gentleman's family in to it? I thought it was his PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL responsibility that if he's traveling, then by God, age 90 or not, it's up to HIM to make sure he has insurance. You can't have it both ways...Personal responsibility is an INDIVIDUAL thing, at least according to you and many others here. He alone should take the heat, right? Having anyone else looking out for him be it Carnival, the government or yes, even his family, isn't being personally responsible on his part is it?...Therefore, you might want to check YOURSELF before calling ME a socialist.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 04:37 PM
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They should have just made him walk the plank!!!

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Old March 9th, 2008, 04:39 PM
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I'm a nurse. I know that bleeding from the mouth and anally can be something very serious. If cruisers think you are going to get big city Emergency Room treatment on ANY cruise line you are very foolish. Think of it as more of a small town clinic. They are not prepared for something as serious as a possible internal bleed.
We have no idea from the article what the man's medical history is. I am sure there are very few tests that can be run in a ship's infirmary. It might have required a colonoscopy or other invasive tests that CANNOT be run on the ship.
The best course of action would have been for the man and his son to go to the hospital on Roatan and see what they might come up with as to tests they wanted to run. And then decided whether to go on home or not. Our medical office had a patient call us from Hawaii once. My Dr. talked to the Dr. there but since my Dr. was not there and not doing the checking all he could do was defer to the Dr. on sight.
It is doubly difficult to treat unknown patients with limited resources. The Dr. on the ship did the best thing for the patient not knowing nor being able to determine from where he was bleeding.
It is no ones fault but the patients that he did not have travel insurance and thus no recourse. It is not the fault of the ship's Dr. nor is it Carnival's. This whole incident would have turned out quite differently with travel insurance.
Please people, don't think of a ship as a little America with all of the perks including a fine well equipped ER. It is not possible.
My friend and I went down to their Infirmary when we were on the Liberty and took a little tour. It is a fair sized ship and had a nice facility but it is not a big city state of the art ER. Go take a look the next time you cruise. You can get treated for some quickly treated sicknesses but if you are or may become critical you should not be on the ship.
I don't care what the cost of the trip or if it's just 4 days. Get insurance!
Do you think it would be fun to be critical and in the hospital in even Nassau with hospital bills piling up and it would cost a fortune to get you home?
Remember the guy traveling with the case of TB on an airline? Do you realize what it must have cost a lot of agencies including the airlines to track people he came into contact with?
Use your heads cruisers. Don't hide illnesses, take the Dr.'s advice (I wonder if the patient checked with his Dr. before he went on the cruise.) and I mean your own and the ship's.
And don't ever think nothing will happen to you or your family.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 04:40 PM
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Actually 'socialism' is accomplished by governments -- not by companies providing reasonable safety and service to their customers. That's a part of capitalism -- two entirely different things.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhp
I am sorry this gentleman had this happen to him but one has to wonder ... who are these extremely elderly people thinking of when they book these cruises to "third world countries"?

Are they thinking of the other 3,000 cruisers who could have had their cruise completely ruined like on the Holiday a few weeks ago when it had to return to port for an illness (missing Progresso) and then had to back track AGAIN for another emergency evac by helicopter causing the passengers to miss most of their port time in Cozumel.

And who "eats" the cost of reimbursing port charges to every passenger and fielding the hundreds of complaint letters demanding discounts or reimbursements for having their cruise ruined...not to mention the "bad will" it created among cruisers on that ship who were not seasoned enough to understand this can happen??

Carnival already has a minimum "age limit" (6 months of age ~12 months of age for transatlantic cruises).....perhaps they should have a "maximum" age limit?? Just a thought...

Just for the record, the doctor did exactly what he should have done. If someone is bleeding from their mouth and rectum...there is a problem.
My brother in law was minutes away from death from a "free bleed" and the only warning sign he got was just a little blood in his stool and he wasn't 89 years old. He still "felt ok" and if my sister had not insisted that he go to the emergency room immediately...he would be dead.

True, Roatan may not have "our standards"...but when you need a blood transfusion that will save your life...I doubt someone is going to say "never mind...keep your blood...I don't like your "standards." We have had friends who have been missionaries for years in this region and those "poor standards" have served them well.

The bottom line is that the passenger presented what could have been a life threatening case to this doctor and he did what was in the best interest of the cruiser to preserve his life. Especially in a world where if the doctor had allowed him to stay onboard and he bleed out and died...this family would have filed a multi million dollar lawsuit for neglect.
Even if they had signed a waiver, their "excuse" would have been "We only signed the waiver, because the doctor told us it was not that bad."

This is an obvious case where the cruise line can not win....so they erred on the side of preserving a man's life and now folks want to say "shame on them".... how sad.
Does it dawn on you that he's 90? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the stess and the fact that he is, rightfully so, petrified of taking on a third world medical and social system is likely worse for his health and safety than getting back on the ship? Don't you realize, at that age, his safety and comfort likely mean a great deal more to him than where he can get the best blood test? If you were in his shoes, even at our younger age, wouldn't you want to at least be given the option of getting back on the ship if you didn't have something contagious? Older people may be able to adapt enough to going on a well planned vacation with people close to them. But overall, they HATE change, frightening situations where they feel helpless and not having a say so about what happens to them.

It just floors me how, to many folks on here, there is ZERO difference in how you deal with someone whether they are 19 or 90. No disrespect, but it's obvious that many (I know not all) haven't had to work around or serve people of all age groups.

So many on here will send out their unyielding cyber love and prayers to a fellow board member who's pet has died etc with the obligatory "if there is anything I can do" post. But Carnival treats this guy the way they did and it's just this tough luck, shoulda been insured mentality by so many here. Insured or not, whether Carnival helped with his fare home or not, it sure seems they left him hanging or at least half hanging. They had a responsibility to have enough civility to make sure he got to a decent doctor (if one existed). They had the same moral obligation to make sure that he had someone reputable to arrange travel with no matter who was going to pay for it. They needed to make sure he had a decent place to stay if he didn't end up being hospitalized. My questions still stands, did anyone from Carnival ever follow up with him a few days or weeks later and see how he was doing? Most of you expect them to do so if your cabin steward wasn't on the ball and you filled out your comment card, right?...Think this guy was entitled to the same thing? Those same comment cards ask if they met or exceeded your expectations of the cruiseline...When the chips were down and it REALLY counted, as in this case, do you think they met his? If some can't see the difference between moral obligation, civility and "doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do" and socialism then I pitty your cowardice. His family would have filed suit if he passed away? How do you know? Do you know anything about their background, religion or anything else to make that blanket statement. Maybe they would have thanked Carnival for not making their Dad get off the ship in some third world hell hole and keeping him safe and comfortable if that regretful scenario had presented itself. There are way too many law suits, agreed. But not everyone sues everytime for everything despite what you see in the media.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 05:16 PM
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The man had his son with him and if I remember correctly two or three others in his party elected to stay on board. He was not traveling alone.
If you are traveling with an elderly person you must be ready to help them out in case of problems. If they are as frail and worried as ready2board seems to think elderly people are you had better be doubly prepared to deal with them.
I have been on a trip where an older frail woman decided on her own to go along with a woman who had not invited her because of her frailty. She was always winded and lagging and sitting and holding everyone up on the tour. It was a nightmare for everyone else who had paid good money to enjoy the tour. I have heard of equally disturbing accounts from others.
So don't be so quick to blame everyone else when something goes wrong for a passenger. He had people with him and it was their responsibility to take care of him. Which they did. However I think the main problem here was no travel insurance which meant he could not be taken care of in the most expedient way. Again I say that is not Carnival's responsibility. How many times do sites have to tell people to get insurance? It is irresponsible not to.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badknees
The man had his son with him and if I remember correctly two or three others in his party elected to stay on board. He was not traveling alone.
If you are traveling with an elderly person you must be ready to help them out in case of problems. If they are as frail and worried as ready2board seems to think elderly people are you had better be doubly prepared to deal with them.
I have been on a trip where an older frail woman decided on her own to go along with a woman who had not invited her because of her frailty. She was always winded and lagging and sitting and holding everyone up on the tour. It was a nightmare for everyone else who had paid good money to enjoy the tour. I have heard of equally disturbing accounts from others.
So don't be so quick to blame everyone else when something goes wrong for a passenger. He had people with him and it was their responsibility to take care of him. Which they did. However I think the main problem here was no travel insurance which meant he could not be taken care of in the most expedient way. Again I say that is not Carnival's responsibility. How many times do sites have to tell people to get insurance? It is irresponsible not to.
Badknees..I respect your opionion as a nurse. You folks are everyday heros and you make some good points especially that everyone SHOULD have the insurance. But God, please tell me it's about more than "Carnival isn't responsible"...It's funny how who is responsible is almost literally programmed into most of these days and the first thing most think about rather than what is the most humane thing. Sounds like most of the parents I deal with at work...."Couldn't have been MY kid". About 90 pct of the posts are about that rather than what they might have done or learned as a company from the experience or any true caring of how the man was treated or came out of it in the end.

I realize that there is every chance that you may have, but have you ever been to a hospital in a third world country? I'm not the experienced traveler of the world but I've had that experience as a visitor and to get minor treatment as I'm sure many others on here have. I also realize they aren't ALL the same. However, they tend to be frightening, dangerous and dirty whether you're young or old. We tend to think in our minds of a hospital being like here in the states. If the facility was even air-conditioned in a country like this during a sweltering, summer day it would be surprising, trust me. Is that really what's best for this guy? If they see you are American, they are likely to take you for whatever they can. They don't charge everyone the same, even though that's almost unimaginable to most who have only experienced "our" system. Good luck telling them all about your "travel insurance". They are likely going to give you a deer in the headlights look, if they even understand english well enough to have a clue what you're talking about. Sure you can probably settle up with your insurance later. Initially though, having it and a dollar in a third world hospital will probably buy you a cup of coffee until you get home.

No not all seniors are frail and scared. My 99 yr old grandma next door was peddling the hell out of her excercise bike a half hour ago while I was over there. She's almost completely independent, but if for some reason she had to change her routine drastically, it would be extremely difficult for her. It's just been my experience that is the case with most (again not all) seniors. If the town decided they were going to take her house away from her to widen the street, don't you think it would probably be more of a strain on her than the couple in their 20's across the street? Of course it would. Would you expect a rep' from the town to sit down, take a bit more time with her and explain why this hypothetical situation is happening? I would hope so. Remember, at 90, I'm guessing this guys son was probably "up there" a bit himself and not exactly able to completely look out for everyones well being. Doesn't anyone understand that the language barrier itself would creat a huge problem & danger for these folks?

Simply put, we're not a country that treats our elderly with nearly as much dignity and respect as say, most Asian countries. Although we pay alot of lip service to it until the chips are really down. I've thought it sad that "parenting" classes are now the popular thing...That classes are now needed to teach someone this skill. But now the same classes are forming on how to deal and treat the elderly...I'm starting to think they ARE necessary judging from some of the posts on here . Just remember we're all, God willing, going to be that frail old woman on your tour someday. Babies cry, older people sometimes hold things up for us etc. But Jesus, is that really your definition of a "nightmare"? By the way, was there no one, not even any "gentlemen" in your group, who could have let this lady take their arm and helped her through the rest of the tour. Such compassion and chivalry these days! I know, it wasn't "their" responsiblity to help her, right? If I hadn't done something to help this lady, my wife would disown me...Rightfully so.

Funny how the same words and terms keep getting used over and over in every post when it comes to this guys experience....Law suit, Responsible, Blame,Fault, Insurance, liable and so many others....Amazing what we've become.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 07:31 PM
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Readytoboard and badknees.
I think readytoboard has nailed the character of third world medicine perfectly. They are also likely to demand a ton of cash up front before they provide ANY treatment at all. (Witness the post, some back, about the man who died in Columbia in part because he had no ready $10,000!!)

Now forget about this man's age for a minute. Imagine that during a cruise, your wife or husband or your child suddenly develops a serious, but not immediately life threatening condition. You are one day out of Tampa Florida or some other port with excellent medicine, and that's where you and your family decide you want to go -- but the cruise line insists, against your will and your judgment on throwing your loved one off the ship and putting him or her at the mercy of third world medicine which you consider totally inadequate. That is the issue! Either ashore or at sea, the patient should have some say except in the most dire of circumstances.

One other point: The condescension toward the aged here is appalling. Do you think people lose their faculties when they become 80 years of age? I just turned 66 last week and I am still far brighter and more capable than the average 30 year old. I am not being immodest when I say that, it is simply true. I also have the privilege of knowing and associating with a great many WWII Vets who are in their 80s. Some of them put me in the shade. Finally, I have been privileged to cruise all over the world with people in their 70s and 80s and a few in their 90s. Invariably they are people who cruise now because they were extraordinarily successful in life. I have learned a great deal from them. They are among the most intelligent, productive, creative people I have ever met. They do not need condescension from any of you. These are the people who literally invented every facet of the wonderful lives we enjoy today, (including the cruise industry) and who made the world a safe place for us to exist in.

There -- that is my speech on behalf of the senior citizens to whom we all owe so much.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 07:46 PM
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Rich...sent you a PM.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
lhp,
With all due respect you are missing some vital facts. You are evidently an entry level cruiser who seldom ventures outside the relatively tame (and somewhat boring) Caribbean.

FACTS:
A very large segment of the cruise industry depends almost entirely on elderly repeat cruisers, who cruise to all corners of the world. As a general rule, the longer and more exotic the cruise, the older the average age of the passengers. I have been on several 30 day plus cruises where many of the ports were in third world countries and the average age of the cruisers was well over 70, perhaps 75! I hardly think that Cunard, Holland America, Crystal and other 5 star lines want to go bankrupt by imposing an "age limit." That would kill their business. Passenger carrying freighters do have an age limit usually 75 or 78, but that is because they have no elevators, no doctors and no health facilities.

Besides lhp, some elderly folks are in remarkably good shape, and senior citizens are NOT the only ones who are prone to health problems or developing health problems.

I hope this will help answer your question, "... who are these extremely elderly people thinking of when they book these cruises to "third world countries"?" They are the very lifeblood of the cruise industry, that's who they are. People of all ages enjoy our cruise addiction. It is not restricted to the young. Far from it.
Bon Voyage
Then I guess that means you cruise "at your own risk".

Chit happens...if you choose to travel to third world countries then be prepared for events like these. Again, if this man had been seriously ill, forget that he wasnt, lets say he had esophogeal varices for a moment....then he couldnt get the treatment on board he needed to survive.

I guess what this boils down too is that you think the ships doctor should have let him stay on board as requested. Do you think that would have been prudent of the physician? I know had it been my dad and the ships doctor let him stay, i probably would have sued if he died also....esp if we were at high seas and he suffered.

At any age we all take risks walking out our front door in the morning...but to travel to all ends of the world and believe that the infirmary on board can do it all is just not logical. If as you say, the cruise lines make most of thier money on the elderly, then I have to say, its up to the elderly to carry insurance, and to expect that perhaps they may eventually have to visit a third world hospital.

Its the risk you take. (we all take, no matter what age as was mentioned)
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Old March 10th, 2008, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Now forget about this man's age for a minute. Imagine that during a cruise, your wife or husband or your child suddenly develops a serious, but not immediately life threatening condition. You are one day out of Tampa Florida or some other port with excellent medicine, and that's where you and your family decide you want to go
Ah.. we managed to leave off the scenario where the cruise had two days out to sea before returning to their home port... so including the day they disemarked the man and his son it was THREE days. It wasn't like they were going to be back in the US the next morning.

And also ignoring that they suggested the ill passenger visit a hospital OR fly back to the United States ASAP.

It's also possible that had the ill passenger had insurance he could or indeed may have have flown to another closer US destination the same day, with quality of care he felt better with. It appears the fact was he took connecting flights to get to his own home area hospital.

Also the classifying the incident as "not immediately life threatening"??? Who is it that should make that determination? The layman, or the physician? Are doctors 100% all of the time? Certainly not! But I think most people would take their judgment over the guy who stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night.

There's a lot of scenarios we can consider.... and there were alot of odd decisions made.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 12:38 PM
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Considering what happened to one of the best posters here, the Captain, for daring to disagree, I hesitate to do so.

Kuki, an issue like this one is never entirely black and white, all one way or another. In the real world, things are never that clear-cut. There are almost always two sides to consider, and excellent arguments for both points of view.

If you choose not to consider the facts I posed in MY scenario that's up to you. But assuming THOSE facts, I'd certainly opt for Tampa, how about you? Please also consider that it is a fact that in the United States alone, 90,000 (that's not a misprint) people a year die due entirely to "mistakes" made by doctors and other medical professionals. For every one who dies, at least three others are harmed in some way, often with devastating results. It has been my lot in life, by virtue of my former job, to see a lot of those mistakes up close and personal. Perhaps that is why I am less trusting of the 'decisions' of medical types than you are. I believe that informed patients should always have a say in choosing between alternatives. Being thrust, against your will into third world "medicine," is a potentially life endangering event.

Of course staying on board might be too in the most dire of circumstances, and neither of us has sufficient facts to know what the case was here.

It does strike me (from what I know, and I don't pretend to know all the facts) that the wishes of the patient and his family were not sufficiently considered or heeded, and that indeed they were disregarded in a somewhat callous and cold manner.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
Considering what happened to one of the best posters here, the Captain, for daring to disagree, I hesitate to do so.

Kuki, an issue like this one is never entirely black and white, all one way or another. In the real world, things are never that clear-cut. There are almost always two sides to consider, and excellent arguments for both points of view.

If you choose not to consider the facts I posed in MY scenario that's up to you. But assuming THOSE facts, I'd certainly opt for Tampa, how about you? Please also consider that it is a fact that in the United States alone, 90,000 (that's not a misprint) people a year die due entirely to "mistakes" made by doctors and other medical professionals. For every one who dies, at least three others are harmed in some way, often with devastating results. It has been my lot in life, by virtue of my former job, to see a lot of those mistakes up close and personal. Perhaps that is why I am less trusting of the 'decisions' of medical types than you are. I believe that informed patients should always have a say in choosing between alternatives. Being thrust, against your will into third world "medicine," is a potentially life endangering event.

Of course staying on board might be too in the most dire of circumstances, and neither of us has sufficient facts to know what the case was here.

It does strike me (from what I know, and I don't pretend to know all the facts) that the wishes of the patient and his family were not sufficiently considered or heeded, and that indeed they were disregarded in a somewhat callous and cold manner.
It would appear this patient and his family did not make an informed decision in choosing between alternatives as far as travel.

Phil & Liz
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:37 PM
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Phil and Liz, one of the purposes of this board, IMHO, should always be to advocate for passengers -- the cruising public -- there is little need to advocate for the cruise lines when there is a reasonable conflict between the two.

In any event I would say we have flogged this poor horse to death. It is an issue about which reasonable minds can, and do, differ. As for me, I don't want to be booted off the ship in some third world backwater with lousy and unpredictable medical standards unless I am literally at death's door. Even then, I might well be better off on the ship. If you want to disagree, fine, but the patient's rights must be considered.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
Considering what happened to one of the best posters here, the Captain, for daring to disagree, I hesitate to do so.

.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Old March 10th, 2008, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Considering what happened to one of the best posters here, the Captain, for daring to disagree, I hesitate to do so.
Rich...

For as long as this thread has gone on with all sorts of various opionions and arguements, as well as many others with people disagreeing and discussing their thoughts and their opinions, your rather cheap implication above shows surprising little insight, especially considering the past profession you like to speak about.

Reasonable discussions and even heated debate of a topic relating to cruising are welcome. But when those involved resort to name calling it's no longer a debate, it's mud slinging instead of a carrying on a well reasoned arguement. At that point it becomes obvious that valid arguements are over run by emotion, or the name caller has simply run out of even elemental reasonable arguements.

At that point the contributions lack any value to anyone, and those situations are exactly where the rules of the User Agreement CruiseMates has are set to draw the line at.

The poster you refer to had crossed that line quite a number of times, and had been asked prviately on numerous occassions to stick to those rules. And chosen repeatedly to chose to ignore them.

I respectively suggest you stick to "judging" when you have facts, rather than conjecture.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:17 AM
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Calm down Kuki I'm not your enemy, unless you are really looking for one. I had no intent of riling you up. Being hostile and mad at everyone all the time gets you nowhere. All I know is what I've been told by others by PM. I've heard nothing from you. Don't shoot the messenger. I haven't heard your side at all. Nor did I see any name calling by the party in question who I honestly thought was a valuable member of this board (although a fiery guy like you too). Not saying there wasn't any name-calling, but you haven't told your side. And honestly Kuki, I don't need any public dressing down from you or lectures from anyone. I didn't ask for that , and I don't deserve it. Settle down, relax, take a deep breath. It's all cool. If you are mad at someone, try to be mad at the right people -- not your friends. Because that's what I've always considered myself to be.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Rich....I'm not mad at you or anyone. I appreciate everyone who comes here and contributes valuable info and exchanges. If everyone came and agreed on everything we wouldn't have much of a discussion going, would we?

As I've said often.. on topic debates are great because it drives people to think about the different opinions.

However in my last post I responded to the portion of YOUR statement which I quoted. because it was an obvious "shot", that wasn't called for, and was unnecessary.

You've admitted that you only knew what were you told by one person via PM, yet you took the shot anyway, which is even less understandable.

And as far as the Capt. I wasn't involved at all with his "attack" in any way. It wasn't directed at me, and I had "no dog in that race". I was only responding to the unfairness of your comments, and what the portion I quoted implied.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:45 PM
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As the OP on this I have sat back and let the discussion take its course. Now I agree its time to let it go interesting as it is.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 04:16 PM
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Read your contract, please. It tells you that the Captain will make those decisions for you. If you don't like that, then don't cruise. You can't accept the rules and then change them when they no longer suit you. I've done yoga on board and can barely stay up- which I have no problem doing on land! Do any of us really want SURGERY under those circumstances? Please remember that with electronic media your meaning can only be inferred from the actual words that you use. Emoticons help but please reread before posting if you don't want people to misunderstand you. If you do want that, then post away!!!
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Old March 11th, 2008, 06:07 PM
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Oceanmom, lets take some hypothetical country: No hypodermic needles no sanitation, no antibiotics, no up to date medical equipment or techniques of any kind. Do you, "really want surgery under those circumstances?" Many such places exist throughout the world. Would you want to be unceremoniously tossed out in a place like that?

I know what the contract says, oceanmom, I'm a lawyer by trade. It's not a matter of the contract. It's a matter of common sense and proper treatment of your customers. If you treat enough of your customers badly, enough of the time, you won't stay in business -- it's as simple as that.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 06:11 PM
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O.K. Kuki, If you think I was out of line, I appologize. But I still didn't deserve a public dressing down. IMHO. I'm sure you understand that when something happens to one of our menmbers we are curious as to why. If there is no explanation, naturally we become more curious. Human nature.
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Crystal Harm, Aust., N.Z., '94
Royal Odyssey, AK,'96
Old Cr. Pr. Canal, '97
RCCL, Carib, 1998
Volendam, Car, 2000
Ryndam, 35 day S. Am., Antarctica, '03
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Old March 11th, 2008, 06:27 PM
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I'm just getting sick hearing all the third world bashing, the doctors in the so called third world countries do train on the same anatomies as the docs. in N.America they might not have all the up to date equipment, but they're just as qualified as any other docs.
And think about it how many hundreds of other passengers are on the ship ?
they'd all be screaming if their travel plans are all screwed up , plus place the responsibility where it should be, at 89 yrs.old i would not take a day trip out of my back yard without the proper medical ins. much more a cruise outside the country. All big corporation can sometimes seem unfeeling but they see the bigger picture when we tend to look only at the moment.
so give Carnival a chance.

ps. I do not own carnival shares or have any sense of loyalty to them
Charles
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Old March 11th, 2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richstacy
O.K. Kuki, If you think I was out of line, I appologize. But I still didn't deserve a public dressing down. IMHO. I'm sure you understand that when something happens to one of our menmbers we are curious as to why. If there is no explanation, naturally we become more curious. Human nature.
Rich... here's my last word on this particular exchange... (maybe )

Our job, and our goal at CruiseMates is to draw more people into participating in the web site, not chase people away from it.

We don't spend our time monitoring the boards for the fun of seeing who the next one we can "pick off" will be to give us our kicks.

In fact it's a VERY rare occurance for us to take the step of asking someone to move on, or banning them from the site. We actually have a much higher threshold than most sites in tolerating the occassional inappropriate post. We take pride in gently prodding people to express their dissenting opinions in a respectful manner. We encourage those to express those opposing views, and do not suggest they refrain from posting what may be unpopular.

If you or anyone is curious about the methods, though I think it's plainly obvious by following the boards, you can certainly inquire of us privately via email or private message. All of the staff are very accessable.

Your post initially publicly laid out the implication that if you disagree with the staff on the site, you're at risk of being banned. And therefore it called for an equally public response.

It wasn't intended to 'dress you down". It was to clear up an unfair and untrue assertion.

I'll repeat again.... respectful disagreement, dissention, and opinion are welcome. Disrepect is not acceptable, and is not tolerated. It's the latter that chases visitors away from the site, not the former.
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