Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > Cruise Lines (Mainstream) > Carnival Cruise Lines
Register Forgot Password?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old July 4th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,781
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default To fight or not to fight, that is the question...

I say Not! This is an amazing video someone just told me about. I have never seen anything like it before, and must have missed the bruhaha when it happened! Below is the accompanying commentary..comments?

Carnival Cruise Lines threatens passengers who were assembling peacefully with threats of detainment by federal and local authorities, after the cruise line company refuses to compensate passengers...
Carnival Cruise Lines threatens passengers who were assembling peacefully with threats of detainment by federal and local authorities, after the cruise line company refuses to compensate passengers for a two port cancellation on their four port cruise.

Other Carnival cruise ships on the same itinerary were given a third port to debark at, while the Legend was offered $20 dollars back for port fees. Security guards followed passengers that were seen assembling in the main lobby, internet connections were terminated if passengers tried to upload videos to YouTube, MySpace, or local news channels. Censorship of American's 1st Amendment rights at it's finest. What does Carnival have to say for their companies actions?!!!

__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old July 4th, 2009, 09:55 PM
Thoth's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Miz-sippy
Posts: 1,604
Default

Woe That's certainly interesting isn't it ?
What are they so angry about? Something to do with missed ports of call it seems?
In April my cruise skipped Cozumel and we certainly didn't form a rabble. I was refunded the cost of my shore excursion plus port charges and that was fine with me. It was still a great cruise.
That woman on the video didn't impress me as my ideal table-mate. She seemed to epitomize the spoiled ugly American stereotype. Sure we have a "first amendment right" but that right should not supersede other guests' right to enjoy a tranquil vacation. She seemed to overlook the fact that It's THEIR ( Carnival's) ship. Next time she should book NCL or RCCL, maybe they can reach perfection !
__________________
PAST TRIPS= Enchanted Capri
Carnival: Inspiration, Legend, Valor, Destiny, Holiday, Triumph, Splendor, Fantasy
HAL: Maasdam twice, Statendam, Oosterdam



Read and post cruise reviews


Read and post cruise reviews
/ticker.png">
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old July 4th, 2009, 10:41 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 342
Default

Well I'm sure the 'Federal Authorities' are quaking thinking of having to tangle with the woman on the video.
What idiots!
They are certainly being very disruptive to peace and quiet on the ship if nothing else.
Next time they should read the contract, some ports of call may be omitted and it is always the decision of the Captain. In the case of Roatan it was the Honduran authorities that would not let the ship dock due to Security concerns.
They can take it up when they get back, not start a mutiny like this..
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old July 4th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Michelle1959's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1,188
Default

Yes, these idoits appear to have been much more distuptive to the cruise than any missed ports.

The ships are registered in the Bahamas, not the U.S. so that doesn't mean they have to follow the U.S. laws. The lady in the video IS a moron.
__________________
Past Cruises:
Carnival Imagination w/mom: 03/22/10 - 03/26/10
Carnival Sensation w/son: 07/29/07 - 08/02/07
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old July 4th, 2009, 11:52 PM
Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pickering, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Default

This is typical, not just of Americans, that people think their "rights" follow them wherever they travel.

You have no "First Amendment" rights on a cruise ship, unless it is American flagged. The captain is the boss, and it is a dictatorship, however benign, and he makes the decisions while at sea.

From what I understand, the civil unrest situation in Roatan and weather conspired against making two of the ports. These people would be the first to call their attorneys if they were hurt at either of these ports, and blame Carnival.

These people needed to read their cruise contracts before they shot their mouths off.

Idiots....
__________________
"life is uncertain....eat dessert first...."
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 12:22 AM
shoreguy's Avatar
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckybruce
Idiots....
looks like the same passengers as the Miracle


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZGdNxHDxKo&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nliN2sup72E
__________________
Next up - NCL Epic - Transatlantic 06/24/10 website
http://epicmadhatters.com/

NCL JADE, GEM, PEARL, DAWN, JEWEL, SPIRIT, SUN Pics.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jimalaska
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 08:35 AM
thecruisequeen's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,268
Default




Ports get cancelled for a reason. The Captain just does not decide one morning Hey I don't feel like docking today I think I'll keep the ship at sea.
When ports get cancelled it is for the cruisers benefit. Would I like it...No! Would I understand it....Yes! Would I take the time to attend a meeting like in the video.....Hell No!! you can catch me on my lounger poolside!

I think the lady with the short hair, glasses and dark tshirt just wanted to be on YouTube!! She said it herself "I want this on YouTube."

Meeting like that can turn very ugly so I'm sure it was a big concern for Carnival.

The only thing I don't agree with Carnival was not to keep compensation the same for all their ships and not one ship gets $20, another ship gets another port and another ship gets nothing. Still not enough of a reason to take time out of my cruise to attend a meeting like this.


Just my opinion!
__________________
CQ's Cruise Resume

Vision Of The Seas
Independence Of The Seas
Allure Of The Seas
Carnival Breeze
Oasis Of The Seas x3
Liberty Of The Seas x4
Freedom Of The Seas x3
Navigator Of The Seas x2
Explorer Of The Seas x2
Voyager Of The Seas
Enchantment Of The Seas
Rhapsody Of The Seas
Majesty Of The Seas
Monarch Of The Seas
Sovereign Of The Seas
Celebrity Mercury
Carnival Victory
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 10:33 AM
getsemani1's Avatar
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 113
Default

Couldn't these disgruntled passengers be banned from ever cruising on Carnival again?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 53
Default

What a waste of vacation time!!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 12:40 PM
Member
Familiar Face
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 90
Default all this for $20?

I thnk I would have given the woman in the dark tshirt her port fees myself if that would have shut her up.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 01:59 PM
misguidedangel's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 1,670
Send a message via ICQ to misguidedangel
Default

It is really sad to see that these ugly americans can't see what the Captain sees. The Captain only tells the passengers what they need to know and not that there is A) political unrest and you could be in danger, B) Truly bad weather, or C)Told DO NOT come to the port from the port authorities reasons.

Do these people not realize the cruise line or captain doesn't do these changes on a whim or just because they feel like it. What was nice about my cruise last September on the Liberty was how well behaved everyone was when we were told at the port our route had changed! Some people moaned and groaned, but when it was said that we'd be dangerously close to the hurricane, everyone soon realized that OK, so we make the best of it and have a good time. Better to go somewhere else and have a good time than to be sailing hours away from an approaching hurricane and possibly missing a port or two because of the path of said hurricane!
Many were disappointed, but everyone agreed our safety was first priority.
__________________




1991 Holiday
2007 Victory & Triumph
2008 Conquest & Liberty
2009 Valor, Freedom, and Splendor
2010 Glory and Liberty
2011 Glory

I gotta go where it's warm.....

Over 40 victim of fate.....
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,781
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

I do wish the term "Ugly American" would not show up on any postings anymore, I would rather see the term, ugly tourist, or, ugly traveler. I think this is better suited, because, we know there is ugly everywhere...jmho
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 02:44 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip
I do wish the term "Ugly American" would not show up on any postings anymore, I would rather see the term, ugly tourist, or, ugly traveler. I think this is better suited, because, we know there is ugly everywhere...jmho
Me too!

It is UGLY to call people by that term.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Ron Ron is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,288
Default

I've kept my mouth shut regarding the " ugly American" thing to the point where I can't keep it shut any longer.
There's ugly enough in the world everywhere.--not just Americans. Yes, there's Americans who are idiots. The lady in the video and her small band were idiots, whether American, Russian, Canadians or whatever.
The Americans who freed Europe in WW1, including my grandfather, weren't considered " ugly"--- the Americans who had to go back and die in the hundreds of thousands in WW11 to free Europe again, including my father, weren't considered " ugly".
I guess I was considered " ugly " when I went to Vietnam.
So, if you want to keep hurling insults, give us ( Americans ) a break and pick on some Canadians, French, Polish, Mexican, etc.

Misguided angel, there seems to be a slant toward Americans in your past posts but this is the first time Ive commented. I've had it. Enough with the insults. You don't have to like us--just don't keep insulting 99.99 % of us.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 03:06 PM
colorcrazie's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tampa Bay area
Posts: 2,706
Default

I could swear that woman used to live in my condo building! Doesn't look like her, but totally acts like her, so maybe they are just related.
How can people be so egocentric that they think everything revolves around their wishes and desires. Somehow, I think that shows up more on vacations. Especially from people who save up for a long time for their dream vacation, then think that entitles them to have everything go their way. Sigh. Sadly, these are the types who will never get a clue and, much as I love the internet, it gives them a broaden platform for venting their anger at the world for it not being what they want it to be.
Marty
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 03:40 PM
Kamloops Cruiser's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,130
Default

On any ship even American flagged vessels , the captain has the ultimate
authority with regards to the operation of the ship. NCL America captains have the authority to bypass or change ports.
Even when then the ship is docked the captain has the ultimate authority over the ship, crew and passengers. If he decides to leave earlier or later is at his discression.
Not even the port authority or police can tell hime to leave .
The health authorities (police or Port ) can recommend something to the captain . The final decision is his and only his.
The only time the captain releases his authority is when the pilots take over the finiancal liability of the ship.
__________________





Ships Sailed:

SS Ithaca , Volendam , Mariner of the Seas (x2) , Veendam , Coral Princess , Island Princess (x3) , Emerald Princess,Sapphire Sapphire (x3),Diamond Princess
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colorcrazie
I could swear that woman used to live in my condo building! Doesn't look like her, but totally acts like her, so maybe they are just related.
How can people be so egocentric that they think everything revolves around their wishes and desires. Somehow, I think that shows up more on vacations. Especially from people who save up for a long time for their dream vacation, then think that entitles them to have everything go their way. Sigh. Sadly, these are the types who will never get a clue and, much as I love the internet, it gives them a broaden platform for venting their anger at the world for it not being what they want it to be.
Marty
This was all done for the benefit of the camera.
It's like a celebrity thing.

I bet the Captain was watching and having a quiet chuckle.... saying "Knock yourself out folks". Wish I could have seen him!
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 04:17 PM
wakedreams's Avatar
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 533
Send a message via Yahoo to wakedreams
Default

That is exactly why ships are not registered in the USA.

International travel does not offer us the freedoms we take advantage of every day.

God Bless America. Happy 4th everyone!
__________________
Carnival Inspiration 2/2011
Carnival Splendor 2/2010
Carnival Imagination 8/2009 B2B
Carnival Triumph 11/2008
Carnival Celebration 10/2007
Carnival Victory 11/2006
Disney Wonder 1/2006
Carnival Legend 10/2005
Carnival Victory 3/2005
Carnival Triumph 8/2004
Carnival Sensation 6/2002
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 04:30 PM
MrPete's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 487
Send a message via AIM to MrPete
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by funmaker
What a waste of vacation time!!
That's what I'm thinking. Someone setting the lemmings ire, and the crowd mentality sets in.

I have better things to do besides congregating with some people who look like they haven't missed ANY of the meals served.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 07:04 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 342
Default Re: all this for $20?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cals granny
I thnk I would have given the woman in the dark tshirt her port fees myself if that would have shut her up.
\


Good one!
I would have taken up a collection with you..
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pickering, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron
I've kept my mouth shut regarding the " ugly American" thing to the point where I can't keep it shut any longer.
There's ugly enough in the world everywhere.--not just Americans. Yes, there's Americans who are idiots. The lady in the video and her small band were idiots, whether American, Russian, Canadians or whatever.
The Americans who freed Europe in WW1, including my grandfather, weren't considered " ugly"--- the Americans who had to go back and die in the hundreds of thousands in WW11 to free Europe again, including my father, weren't considered " ugly".
I guess I was considered " ugly " when I went to Vietnam.
So, if you want to keep hurling insults, give us ( Americans ) a break and pick on some Canadians, French, Polish, Mexican, etc.

Misguided angel, there seems to be a slant toward Americans in your past posts but this is the first time Ive commented. I've had it. Enough with the insults. You don't have to like us--just don't keep insulting 99.99 % of us.
You might want to read this before commenting further.

Read the whole thing. It's quite interesting, and you might not feel so insulted.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American
__________________
"life is uncertain....eat dessert first...."
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 07:30 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,781
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

Quote:
Read the whole thing. It's quite interesting, and you might not feel so insulted.



Nope, still don't like it.....
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pickering, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip
Quote:
Read the whole thing. It's quite interesting, and you might not feel so insulted.



Nope, still don't like it.....
The "key" word in the entire Wiki entry is "stereotype". Nobody of any intelligence believes all Americans are like that. Not even misguidedangel, I'd venture.

HOWEVER....some are...and this video clip amply demonstrates this.

It's interesting the term was actually coined by an American writer.

I can certainly understand why you don't like it.
__________________
"life is uncertain....eat dessert first...."
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Ron Ron is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,288
Default

I read the item you suggested but I still feel it's in bad taste to refer to a specific race, nationality, etc in terms that are derogatory to the whole when it's a handful that usually causes the problems.
I'm not one to try to start a political argument here and I won't but since my chains been jerked, I'll stand for what I believe in.
If you have read many of my posts, you'll see I don't list all the cruises I've been on, don't advertise when I'm going, how many I have booked at present, etc. or when I get back I usually don't comment on people I saw who acted in bad taste, whether they were French, German, American or Canadian. But since I feel that it was in bad taste to throw about 99.99% of us into the mix of a handful of idiots, assuming that they were even all Americans to begin with,I will conclude with a couple things:
(A) How do all the people from Canada bear to be around all the ugly Americans in Florida in the wintertime? Just curious.
(B) I never mentioned this at all, especially on the computer in anyway, shape or fashion until now-- a few years ago on the Mariner of the Seas we were scheduled to stop at Grand Cayman. Having been there many times, my wife and I both knew the night before that unless the water calmed significantly we would not stop as it's a tender port. Sure enough, it was announced next morning that due to the rough water we would not be making the stop.
All the hell raising I heard from anyone was from 4 older men from Quebec ( which if I'm not mistaken is still a part of Canada).
I finally told one of them that they should be grateful that the Captain didn't put their butt in a tender as they could have very well drowned had he done so.
Point is, I didn't go around the rest of the cruise or posting on the internet about those " ugly Canadians."
We're all human--not perfect in anyway. Most people wherever their from are good people--there's always a few.
I would have to think that since we have 10 times the population of Canada, it's likely we have more nuts that does Canada.
Happy sails to all--wherever you're going and wherever you're from.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old July 5th, 2009, 10:54 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckybruce
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip
Quote:
Read the whole thing. It's quite interesting, and you might not feel so insulted.



Nope, still don't like it.....
The "key" word in the entire Wiki entry is "stereotype". Nobody of any intelligence believes all Americans are like that. Not even misguidedangel, I'd venture.

HOWEVER....some are...and this video clip amply demonstrates this.

It's interesting the term was actually coined by an American writer.

I can certainly understand why you don't like it.
The person using the term is the ugly one.

It's only purpose is to offend and the user knows that- and no literary connotation or explanation is needed in order to justify it's use,or suggest it is harmless- just use some courtesy and civility.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2009, 12:04 AM
Thoth's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Miz-sippy
Posts: 1,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip
I do wish the term "Ugly American" would not show up on any postings anymore, I would rather see the term, ugly tourist, or, ugly traveler. I think this is better suited, because, we know there is ugly everywhere...jmho
I was the first to throw the term "ugly American" into this thread.
What I actually used was "ugly American stereotype". Meaning she acted according to a stereotype of which I disagree.
As a native born US citizen I realize everywhere I go that I'm an ambassador for my country and people will judge my hometown location by my actions.
Most of the staff on these ships are not from the USA and how people in Poland, Philippines, Russia, Haiti, and so on perceive Americans depends on how we treat the staff on our cruise. When these staff members go home they tell everybody all about us. It's called the halo effect where if we get treated well by one individual we tend to consider all the group favorably.
It can go the other way also.
__________________
PAST TRIPS= Enchanted Capri
Carnival: Inspiration, Legend, Valor, Destiny, Holiday, Triumph, Splendor, Fantasy
HAL: Maasdam twice, Statendam, Oosterdam



Read and post cruise reviews


Read and post cruise reviews
/ticker.png">
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2009, 09:19 AM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: conway, mass
Posts: 102
Default

Maybe the English Navy had it right 200 years ago when someone was disrespectful to the captain, they were flogged in front of the whole ships crew. Like it or not, the captain of a ship or airplane is in charge.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2009, 10:22 AM
billbelt's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dallas Texas
Posts: 312
Default Angry Woman

I watched just enough of the video to know that some of these passengers should not take up cruisng, flying or any travel for that matter. Things are going to happen in the travel industry and one must learn to cope with those incidents.Some of ther statements made by the passengers such as suing, it's an American Company, federal officials, etc. , are for the most part just lost words.. Such actions will not lead to any of these passenger's satisfaction. These just don't float. You should have your facts straight and know what your legal actions can be before you start "spouting off" in front of others!!!
__________________
Bill A. Belt
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2009, 12:01 PM
Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pickering, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron

(A) How do all the people from Canada bear to be around all the ugly Americans in Florida in the wintertime? Just curious.

*It's warm...we're cold...we'll put up with anything so we don't freeze.

(B)
All the hell raising I heard from anyone was from 4 older men from Quebec ( which if I'm not mistaken is still a part of Canada).

*Not if you ask them....

__________________
"life is uncertain....eat dessert first...."
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old July 6th, 2009, 12:02 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Benicia, CA
Posts: 816
Default

Funny how this loud mouth moronic lady's rant led to an ugly american discussion. Granted if I were her husband I would have jumped overboard where I could probably hear her whining as I sink to the bottom. She like a lot of people is speaking thru ignorance. She has no idea what her cruise contract said nor does she have a clue what nationality her ship is registered under. She wants her 15 minutes of fame where channel 13's ratings would plummet if viewers had to see and hear her obnoxious face. Hope she stays on land and she can moan till the cows come home.
__________________
1995-Jubilee
1996-Imagination
1998-Destiny
1999-Paradise
1999-Sun Princess
2002-Pride
2004-Pride
2006-Pride
2008-Valor and Glory
2009-Spirit and Splendor
2010-Freedom of the Seas and Mariner of the Seas
2010-Carnival Spirit
2011-Carnival Dream
2012-Allure of the Seas and Navigator of the Seas
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the fight earl Cruise Jokes & Trivia - Just For Laughs 4 October 6th, 2009 08:52 PM
To fight or not to fight, that is the question Trip Chit - Chat for Cruisers 33 July 9th, 2009 05:33 PM
Cheetos fight Phil&Liz Chit - Chat for Cruisers 5 July 1st, 2009 06:35 AM
How the fight started.... Inis46 Cruise Jokes & Trivia - Just For Laughs 2 April 13th, 2008 07:48 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:59 AM.
design by: Themes by Design

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1