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  #31 (permalink)  
Old September 24th, 2009, 11:56 AM
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green_rd. You are correct, but thats how things go. The cabbie was cheating them out of $50 so what do you do. Everbody has a different take on what to do. Like I said, I'm a chicken I would of weighed my options, payed the extra $50 and got out of the their country never to return. Or a least not get off the ship if I went on a cruise that went back there. So beware, Antigua has a problum so you might want to use the ships tours even tho they cost a lot more. You might be better protected. OM
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Old September 26th, 2009, 01:30 PM
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green_dr. Maybe so, I guess they should have taken an approved tour that was sold on the ship. They chose a "moonlighter" on shore tour instead. I know the people have different ideas on ship sold tours vs shore sold tours. OM
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Old September 26th, 2009, 03:06 PM
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The cabbie made the mistake of not being upfront. The cruisers, while they had a long list of mistakes, could have easily prevented this by asking simply if it was just one way or both ways. Unfortunately, people in their early to mid-twenties are quite impatient. I still am sometimes and I am less than a year from 30. There is a pretty good chance they will not be seeing the United States anytime soon, and if they do, they will probably be banned from Antigua.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 08:32 PM
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Well, the trial starts again next Tuesday. Boy, when this is over I'll bet these people never go there again. Some one said that Carnival is dropping Antigua in Jan, 2010. OM
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Old September 27th, 2009, 11:08 PM
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I would be willing to bet that this grp. has never been anywhere outside of the US and there in lies the problem in that they are in a foreign country and you cannot act like you may do in your home town.My guess is that they will pay a nice fine and wish they had acted more like the normal tourist rather than the ugly American Have seen this type in many of my cruises since the 50,s.
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Old September 27th, 2009, 11:25 PM
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I wouldn't even act that way inside the United States. It is not befitting of a true gentleperson, Southern or no.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 12:41 PM
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In response to Old Man's saying that Carnival may drop Antigua from their itineries, it would be a very shameful day for any company that would allow the actions of 6 completely irresponsible jerks to dictate how they do business. I have been to Antugua many times. My wife lived there for 2 years. We have never been treated poorly in Antigua. Sure, it is a foreign country and a rather poor one. But, I can vouch for the fact that if you behave as responsible folks you will be treated as such in turn. It really fries my a** that these six idiots are giving not only Carnival but the USA a bad name.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 01:26 PM
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one should never pass judgement based upon how the media portrays an incident..(remember I did not evacuate for Hurricane Katrina and what I saw on tv and what was really happening were two very different things)

I would at least wait for the made for tv movie to come out before I render an opinion
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Old September 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM
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Venice: you are most correct. Something about "innocent until proven guilty?" However, as we all know, sometimes perception is accepted as fact. I cannot believe that the "6 innocents" are indeed innocent. I was recently on a cruise (Carnival Liberty) to the Eastern Carib that had a very high passenger count of folks from New York City. Believe me I know. They never let me forget it the whole cruise Now, I am not about to cast stones at anybody and I know better than to stereotype but: I heard several times, no many times: How can these folks live in these dirty towns! Why don't these folks get a job instead of sitting on their porches! etc., etc., etc. I could go further but I think you get the picture. I look for the positive and sometimes have been accused of having on rose colored glasses. As a result, I find comments that belittle others to be in extremely bad taste. OK, off the soapbox. I just hope that the actions of these six are not seen as what all Americans are like.
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Old September 28th, 2009, 05:25 PM
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There is another take to this incident. I will say it b/c it has not been said. Like it or not, it is true.

Had these 6 individuals (some called them idiots) been a different skin color or a bit older, the situation would not have escalated to the level that it did.

While these 6 did not behave in the most advantageous manner, I have witnessed worse behavior from cruise passengers (especially the young, white and drunk) and everyone resolves the situation amicably.

However, there is a negative pre-concieved stereotype about the young, black, urban set and when something happens, the authorities have a tendency to be just a bit more heavy handed than necessary.

It has been my experience that, as hard as it is to believe, the locals on many of these islands treat American minorities (black/latino) with much less respect than what is afforded white Americans. I have seen and experienced it.

The cabbie was wrong and a crook. The young people were foolish.

However, . . . . . . . did the cabbie get arrested for ripping off the tourists?
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Old September 28th, 2009, 05:45 PM
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Can't agree. Six white drunken Americans fighting with police would have been arrested just as easily. This isn't about race. It's about stupidity!!!
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Old September 28th, 2009, 08:14 PM
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I thought it went without saying that age was a factor, but I would not be inclined to think race would be. I find it intolerable and incomprehensible that one would jump so quickly to race. Fact of the matter is the largest part of Caribbean islanders are of African or Spanish descent. Sure there are some French, Dutch, and English islands, but the largest number by far were settled by the Spaniards. With such a mixture of ethnicities, the police force in Antigua would certainly have had people of all skin colors on it. I do believe that African Americans from urban areas would have had a distrust of the police, but that would be natural given the large amount of racism in many police departments in the United States. It is a sad statement of our society, but nevertheless true. For the record I am of primarily Caucasian descent(with a large proportion of Native American(Cherokee) and a small portion of Black Dutch(German Gypsies) as well) so I have no bias for or against anyone.
  #43 (permalink)  
Old September 28th, 2009, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chief
Can't agree. Six white drunken Americans fighting with police would have been arrested just as easily. This isn't about race. It's about stupidity!!!
Race is the pink elephant in the room that everyone tries to ignore.

I am pretty sure if this group had been middle age or white-skinned, their interaction with the police would have not been so harsh. Yes, the group behaved foolishly, however, the authorities on these islands know that these mega-cruiseline expect their passengers to be allowed to return to the ship if at all possible. For example, the Costa Rican incident when the robber was killed. It was a justifiable self-defense but, no one missed the ship while it was investigated. Older, white passengers were given the benefit of the doubt.

As far as Carnival removing Antigua from their itineraries. I believe they have only rerouted a couple of their future cruises. It sends a message. They did the same thing to the Costa Rican port of call when there was an uproar in Costa Rico and the authorities considered having the gentleman involved return to face charges. Carnival dropped that port of call and, as a result, the authorities dropped their contention that the gentleman had to return to Costa Rico. Carnival then reinstated the port of call on their itineraries.

It does Carnival no good to have their passengers detained. It is bad press.

Now, as a middle aged black woman, I would have handled the situation differently. I would not have argued with the cab driver until I got back to port. At the port, I would have gotten out of the cab, handed him what we agreed to initially and walked away. If the cabbie wanted to create a scene and the police wanted to side with the cabbie, it would have been in full view of all of the other cabbies, merchants, port authorities and returning passengers. Not likely. Nobody enjoys a good scene like I do.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old September 28th, 2009, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
I thought it went without saying that age was a factor, but I would not be inclined to think race would be. I find it intolerable and incomprehensible that one would jump so quickly to race. Fact of the matter is the largest part of Caribbean islanders are of African or Spanish descent. Sure there are some French, Dutch, and English islands, but the largest number by far were settled by the Spaniards. With such a mixture of ethnicities, the police force in Antigua would certainly have had people of all skin colors on it. I do believe that African Americans from urban areas would have had a distrust of the police, but that would be natural given the large amount of racism in many police departments in the United States. It is a sad statement of our society, but nevertheless true. For the record I am of primarily Caucasian descent(with a large proportion of Native American(Cherokee) and a small portion of Black Dutch(German Gypsies) as well) so I have no bias for or against anyone.
Since you are not of Afro/Latin descent, you get to found it intolerable. Minorities don't have that luxury.

Regardless of the ethnic makeup of the islands, one has to understand the true social make up of these islands and the silent resentment many islanders feel towards tourists, especially cruise passengers. The islands look predominately Afrocentric in ethnic makeup but the financial and prosperity is still in the hands of the Euro/American movers and shakers. There is no EEOC or the like to make things fair. Hence, the locals learn early to give deference to those of Euro descent because those are more than likely the owners, bosses, rule makers and, until very rcently, the biggest chunk of tourists. For many it comes naturally. The same sense of deference is sometimes not extended to those that look the most like the locals. Sometimes intentional, sometimes not. Is it racism? Not in the sense that we here in the USA view racism. It is just the social order of things.

Also, when cruise passengers are in port, the authorities spend all day babysitting these short term visitors. I can imagine that by the time this young, urban, abrasive group descended on the police, the police had had their fill. Things got out of hand. Trust me, no way, no how did a bunch of young African Americans from Brooklyn "attack" the police unprovoked. They would know that would end badly. Have you ever read how the police in NYC deal with urban, black, young, male????

Now, untravelled cruise passengers have a habit of getting off of these mega-liners with the misguided notion that the locals on the island are there for the pleasure of the cruise passengers. Some tourists are not as pleasant or agreeable as they should or could be.

However, they no more deserve to spend weeks and weeks in jail while this is ironed out than the retired marine deserved to be stuck in Costa Rico. Why is it necessary to ruin their lives? When they missed the ship, they learned their lesson.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 01:05 AM
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Were not the police and taxi driver also black?
I went to Antigua last year and most of the locals ( 91%) just happened by chance to be of African ancestry.
This issue transcends race.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Had these 6 individuals (some called them idiots) been a different skin color or a bit older, the situation would not have escalated to the level that it did.

While these 6 did not behave in the most advantageous manner, I have witnessed worse behavior from cruise passengers (especially the young, white and drunk) and everyone resolves the situation amicably.

However, there is a negative pre-concieved stereotype about the young, black, urban set and when something happens, the authorities have a tendency to be just a bit more heavy handed than necessary.
Pre-conceived? I wonder when this word is used. Did the passengers have a "pre-conceived" idea about the island/driver/cops?

I doubt the color of the skin would have mattered but the age most likely would have... is that a "pre-conceived" notion?

I tend to think the driver had an "in" with the police and I think things got out of hand rather quickly. I personally as an "older" white man would not have wanted to be in that situation... and feel sure I would not have been. I would have understood the fees upfront or would not have gotten into the cab. Cheap usually ends up costing more.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 07:39 AM
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"Had these 6 individuals (some called them idiots) been a different skin color or a bit older, the situation would not have escalated to the level that it did. "

Bulls..., quit playing the race card. These people were idiots no matter what their skin color and now need to pay ther piper.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 08:04 AM
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Remember there were also 5 or 6 of their compatriots who chose not to get involved. Some people, regardless of race, are just idiots. Alcohol is color blind. I think that is why race has been ignored. If they had not assaulted the police the police probably have been able to resolve the situation.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 08:25 AM
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I am fully aware of the injustices in this world and personally take up the banner to make it a better world. Technically, if you take into account my gypsy heritage, that makes me a different kind of ethnic minority. Gypsies are universally mistrusted throughout Europe but I am proud of the heritage. I am also a practicing Wiccan, so I am of a religious minority. In my area, people consider Wiccans(witches) to be as bad or worse than African Americans because they believe Wiccans worship the devil even though we don't even believe in such a figure. Bottom line, I get where you are coming from about being defensive due to people's prejudices over something, and I certainly do not tolerate it and will correct those who are intolerant, even if it means putting my own freedom at risk. I believe in standing up for what is right. In the case of these six, I would say a combination of their youth and backgrounds undoubtedly led to them making one stupid mistake after another. This wasn't an issue of race so much as age and where they lived causing them to be most impetuous. If you reread the article, it becomes clear that age is the major factor here and nothing else.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoth
Were not the police and taxi driver also black?
I went to Antigua last year and most of the locals ( 91%) just happened by chance to be of African ancestry.
This issue transcends race.
Would most people in USA be able to tell the difference between a Pakistani person and an Indian? They are similar in appearence, however, the two countries have had issues for years. My point is just because the police and the taxi driver were black doesn't mean there wasn't a race issue. I will admit I have no idea if race was an issue, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

worked in a salon, we came to work in the morning and someone spray painted the KKK phone number on the side of the building. My African American co worker quit that same day. It made me sad to see, but I can't blame her for quitting. She had kids and was worried about her safety. The area of town this happened in was a middle class neighborhood. Sometimes if it doesn't happened to you directly you can miss it.

In this case I think age and acohol may have played a big role in what happened. Don't forget 6 people were not charged at all. They witness the action, but didn't get involved. If it was truely a race issue I would think all involve would be charge. Unless of course the 6 people not charged were Caucasian. When ever I read stories like this I have more questions then answers. The only people who know the truth are the people involved.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 10:12 AM
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I think to the prejudiced, the actual ethnicity between a Pakistani and Indian would not matter. They would see both as inferior. I think the world would be better off if such people were not allowed to exist, but unfortunately this is an imperfect world so a target of any kind of prejudice, whether ethnic, religious, or some other form, must simply develop tough skin and deal with it. I know I have, unless I know someone is using a term in a derogatory way, then I simply correct them without resorting to their level.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Brad okay this isn't going to make you happy. I have dealt with Irish travellers (gypsies). If you had gypsy blood, but are not apart of the culture then you are most likely an honest person. The Irish Travellers I had experience with are not honest. Even enough I'm in California this article descibes it best. http://fraudtech.bizland.com/travelers.htm I think most people don't realize why Gypsies (travellers) are mistrusted in Europe. I understand it perfectly and it has nothing to do with race. The society of the Irish Travellers is set up for the con artist.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 10:44 AM
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I think we are going astray on this topic ...I still think there is a whole lot more to this story then what we are reading(on all 3 sides, the tourist, the taxi driver and the police) and it has to do more with conduct and reaction then anything else we may want to surmise about it...the eye witness account of the 6 that did not become engaged in this situation, should lend valuable insight into the real deal and would render the postings on these boards somewhat without factual basis
Carnival's response to this situation is understandable...a subliminal message is one that states that if they had been on the ship's sponsor tour, this situation would not have developed...Any veteran cruiser knows that if you elected to do your own thing on the islands there are certain risk attached and I too, would have the cab driver take me back to the ship first, and then if there was a dispute about payment it should have been handled differently with a better outcome

I never once thought about race in this situation...What came to mind was that they did not have alot of travel experience on cruiseships...I bet the 6 that stayed out of it, had previous travel experience..I'm also wondering if alcohol was involved..I bet the 6 that were arrested wished they had just gone ahead and paid the $$$$ because it has cost them much more because of their actions
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Old September 29th, 2009, 10:56 AM
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Just looking at the Antigua Sun Online report from last Friday. It includes testimony of one of the defendants. They clearly believed (or are claiming) that the fare was to be $50 round trip.

"As like Shoshonnah, her sister, Rachael too said the agreement with the taxi operator was for a sum of US$50 round trip. She said they were transported from Heritage Quay to Jolly Beach and about 1:30 p.m. Medica returned for them." http://www.antiguasunonline.com/news...ist-trial.html
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Old September 29th, 2009, 11:20 AM
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I understand that some gypsies in Europe are not to be trusted. You have your good in bad in every group. What many people fail to realize is that many of the various Gypsy clans have very skilled horse trainers and very skilled entertainers. When it comes down to it, the real issue is people do not trust those that are different from them. This could be as simple as Americans in a foreign country. Many of the citizens of these countries expect Americans to be like what they see in the media. Of course the media does not exactly paint a pretty picture of American culture. Some of the problems Americans encounter overseas can be attributed to this phenomena, if you really stop to think about it. My point was jumping to ethnocentric prejudices is poor reasoning, instead of taking the time to understand why this may have happened. I think it really boils down to the Americans misunderstanding a foreign culture and expecting things to be as they are in the United States. Hence, it happened due to ethnocentrism.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 11:33 AM
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Brad I think you have a good point. When people go on a cruise ship they sometimes don't make an effort to understand the countries they are visiting. They don't understand the cultural difference and the legal differences. Then they are often surprised that the forgein country isn't like America.

When I went to Italy I understood the cultural differences. The Italians don't tip the same way we do in America. The tourist are more likely to be pick pocketed in Italy (I had a money belt). The Italians don't always stand in the line the same way we do. In Italy you do not hand money directly to the cashier it always goes on a tray.

I traveled with 5 other people (family members) who didn't bother to understand a thing about Italy. My hubby kept tipping everyone and was upset when people didn't form a proper line. I tried explaining it to him. He just could not stop tipping. He did get over the line thing. We had a very nice Venetian man at the hotel who explained things to my hubby. He was on the night shift, that is one of my fond memories of Venice is listening to my hubby and the man from the hotel talk about the differences bewteen America and Italy. It was a very interesting discussion. He was super polite and patient.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
I understand that some gypsies in Europe are not to be trusted. You have your good in bad in every group. What many people fail to realize is that many of the various Gypsy clans have very skilled horse trainers and very skilled entertainers.
Could you be more racist? The comment is absurd to begin with and condescending. If you inserted something else for gypsies you would be banned for those comments. I've been gone for a while but see you are still up to your games.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Bob, I was was not speaking from a prejudicial stand point, but rather from a historical understanding. I have no personal prejudices against any one group. I was simply commenting on the fact that some of the gypsy peoples had turned to thievery and trickery for a living. Unfortunate though.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 12:55 PM
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I apologize to the readers. I never meant to imply that race was the sole and only reason for this happening. Not at all.

The main reason seems to be that these very young, very untravelled, rather rowdy group of Brooklyn young people went "Billy Badd Azzed" with the cab driver and the police.

Common sense should tell you that the fare was not based on roundtrip.

I can only imagine the scene. I wager that the women caused the escalation.

What I don't get is why, if there was a fare dispute, did they just not get out of the cab or pay the $50? Why, if there was a misunderstanding did the cabbie just not leave them at the beach?

I live in Brooklyn, New York. I know how abrasive some of our younger adult citizens can be.

It was not racism in the formal sense. Not at all.

However, on one hand you may have a group that has a built in distrust/dislike for police. On the other hand, you have a group of police who have a built in intolerance for what they may consider to be unacceptable "urban" behavior. Throw in a little money dispute, some alcohol, too much testoterone (sp?), a couple of chicks that won't shut their traps and you have a HOT MESS on your hands.

Oh well. How it is resolved soon.
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Old September 29th, 2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
Bob, I was was not speaking from a prejudicial stand point, but rather from a historical understanding. I have no personal prejudices against any one group.
It is so blatant that you do not even understand it. You state something and spout that you have no personal prejudices.... It would be funny if it was not so sad.
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