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  #61 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 02:17 PM
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I just read an article online regarding one of the defendants' account of what happened.

Based on her testimony, it sounds like it was a case of ripoff and collusion by the police and this cab driver that got horribly out of hand. If she is to be believed, it looks like they tried to intimidate these young people and shake them up and shake them down for extra cab fare. I guess these cops and cab driver had no idea how resillient NYCers are.

Somewhere in between the police's version and the defendants' version is the truth.

I stand by my original thought that this incident has been blown completely out of proposition and the defendants were treated much more harshly than was necessary.

I believe that Carnival is sending a message to Antigua to get their act together. I am sure Carnival knows some stuff that we don't know.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 02:33 PM
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IBCRUZIN': "I guess these cops and cab driver had no idea how resillient NYCers are."

There is a fine line between being resilient and being just plain stupid. I too believe that the truth to this matter lies somewhere between the accused's version, the taxi cab version and the police version. However, I cannot condone ANYONE fighting with police, especially in a foreign country, no matter what the situation. If you feel the police are wrong, contact the US Embassy or US Consulate and let them get involved. That is what they are there for.

And if Carnival is trying to send a "subtle" message then they are wrong to just accept one side of the story. This ruins it all for those of us who don't do stupid things on a cruise.

I also feel this post has been beaten to death and we should move on and await the outcome of this incident.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chief
IBCRUZIN': "I guess these cops and cab driver had no idea how resillient NYCers are."

There is a fine line between being resilient and being just plain stupid. I too believe that the truth to this matter lies somewhere between the accused's version, the taxi cab version and the police version. However, I cannot condone ANYONE fighting with police, especially in a foreign country, no matter what the situation. If you feel the police are wrong, contact the US Embassy or US Consulate and let them get involved. That is what they are there for.

And if Carnival is trying to send a "subtle" message then they are wrong to just accept one side of the story. This ruins it all for those of us who don't do stupid things on a cruise.

I also feel this post has been beaten to death and we should move on and await the outcome of this incident.
There may not have been any opportune time to march theirselves to the local consultate or embassy. That is mighty highbrow of you. In many countries the authorities ARE the crooks. Don't know if this is the case in Antigua but it is not beyond the pale that the police were in collusion with the cabbie.

In Jamaica a few years ago, when the Carnival passengers were robbed at gunpoint. Somehow the police happened on the scene right away, caught the robbers (killed at least one) but none of the passengers property ever turned up? What happened to the property? The police took it. Therefore, if you are being robbed/ripped off/accosted by the local police, the idea "don't fight back just wait until I get to the embassy" may not be an option.

As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship. Carnival is moving 10's of thousands of novice travellers around these 3rd world islands every single week. For the most part Carnival passengers are not sophisticated travellers and may not be accustomed to other cultures, habits, nuances outside of the community they live in. Hence, in many ways, Carnival must play the part of "mama bear" to their passengers. They have to. Carnival does not have the luxury of "waiting until the end of the trial". On my various cruises, I have seen many examples of Carnival saving passengers from their own stupidity. It is included in the price of a cruise ticket.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 03:34 PM
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New Yorkers ought to be used to the difference between licensed and unlicensed cabs - no?

Besides the rate the cab driver wanted is in line with government guidelines. The Brooklyn 6 sated they wanted to pay $50 round-trip, the cabbie wanted $50 come $50 go. It was actually a bargain.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 03:58 PM
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IBCRUZIN': I wasn't trying to start an arguement or be "High brow". I spent over 10 years working in American Embassies and Consulates in Africa where the 3rd world nations are not as friendly as the Carib ones are. And believe me. Embassy folks do know how to work the system. I was merely trying to point out if the group involved had tried to settle this problem in a non-confrontational way it may have never happened. Somewhere, somehow, these individuals have to accept responsibility (at least 75% anyway) for their actions. I find it very interesting that a lot of folks on this board have already decided that the taxi driver was really the problem starter and that the group was merely exercising thier rights. Come on. Get real. I'm signing off this subject as I find it has gotten way out of hand from reality. Most of you have been very fair with comments. However, there were way to many who were ready to blame it all on the cabbie. And for good measure, perhaps taking a ship sponsored tour, albeit more expensive, is really the way to go.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 06:23 PM
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Bob, you need to understand that I was only speaking about a small minority in regards to an otherwise honest people. I know the history of the romany people. It is pointless to debate the point further with someone who clearly does not understand what I am trying to say.
  #67 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 06:23 PM
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green_rd. You are still wrong about the cab fare. I told you in an early post what the deal was. The deal was $50 to go and $50 to come back not $50 aound trip, but on the way back the cabbie changed the fare to $50 to go and $100 to come back. He charged them a surprise extra $50 on the way back. This is what made them unhappy. So he went to the police station. Let me know if you still do not understand the fare agreement. Thanks, OM
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Old September 29th, 2009, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
[As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship.
Or....Read the contract......
What is the Code of Conduct?

We welcome you aboard and wish you a wonderful vacation on our vessel. We want every guest to have a truly enjoyable cruise experience. Therefore, please be considerate of your fellow guests while on board. Carnival will not tolerate any behavior affecting the comfort, enjoyment, health, safety or well-being of other guests or our crew. We reserve the right to to refuse or discontinue passage to anyone who, in Carnival's judgment, is conducting themselves in a manner that adversely affects the cruise experience of others. Please refer to paragraphs 6(b) and 24 of your ticket contract for more details on this important policy.

Now, one could say their behavior was off the ship and not directly affecting other passengers, but once on board if they were to carry on about how they were treated ashore and how Carnival must make it right....

Phil & Liz
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
[As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship.
Or....Read the contract......
What is the Code of Conduct?

We welcome you aboard and wish you a wonderful vacation on our vessel. We want every guest to have a truly enjoyable cruise experience. Therefore, please be considerate of your fellow guests while on board. Carnival will not tolerate any behavior affecting the comfort, enjoyment, health, safety or well-being of other guests or our crew. We reserve the right to to refuse or discontinue passage to anyone who, in Carnival's judgment, is conducting themselves in a manner that adversely affects the cruise experience of others. Please refer to paragraphs 6(b) and 24 of your ticket contract for more details on this important policy.

Now, one could say their behavior was off the ship and not directly affecting other passengers, but once on board if they were to carry on about how they were treated ashore and how Carnival must make it right....

Phil & Liz
What does the code of conduct have to do with the situation at hand? We cannot and should not speculate on how they may have behaved once onboard. I don't see them making a disturbance on the ship that would warrant them being put back off the ship. That is a ridiculous assumption.

The cabbie was wrong. Plus, at the point they asked to be let out of the cab and the cabbie took them somewhere else, would that not be considered kidnapping?

I don't know what happened but the more I learn about what went down, the more it stinks. Those were barely adults, probably on their first vacation. So unfortunate that the cabbie decided to try to rip them off. How unfair.

If the police was in collusion with the cabbie or just decided to back up the cabbie in his wrong deed, they are in big trouble. This is not going away quietly. If this is what happened (and Carnival would know), Carnival is not happy. Carnival can't get involved for liability purposes but they can send a message to the Island of Antigua that this will not be tolerated.

How to send such a message you ask? Pull your ship from the island for a time. Message sent. Message received.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
[As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship.
Or....Read the contract......
What is the Code of Conduct?

We welcome you aboard and wish you a wonderful vacation on our vessel. We want every guest to have a truly enjoyable cruise experience. Therefore, please be considerate of your fellow guests while on board. Carnival will not tolerate any behavior affecting the comfort, enjoyment, health, safety or well-being of other guests or our crew. We reserve the right to to refuse or discontinue passage to anyone who, in Carnival's judgment, is conducting themselves in a manner that adversely affects the cruise experience of others. Please refer to paragraphs 6(b) and 24 of your ticket contract for more details on this important policy.

Now, one could say their behavior was off the ship and not directly affecting other passengers, but once on board if they were to carry on about how they were treated ashore and how Carnival must make it right....

Phil & Liz
What does the code of conduct have to do with the situation at hand? We cannot and should not speculate on how they may have behaved once onboard. I don't see them making a disturbance on the ship that would warrant them being put back off the ship. That is a ridiculous assumption.

The cabbie was wrong. Plus, at the point they asked to be let out of the cab and the cabbie took them somewhere else, would that not be considered kidnapping?

I don't know what happened but the more I learn about what went down, the more it stinks. Those were barely adults, probably on their first vacation. So unfortunate that the cabbie decided to try to rip them off. How unfair.

If the police was in collusion with the cabbie or just decided to back up the cabbie in his wrong deed, they are in big trouble. This is not going away quietly. If this is what happened (and Carnival would know), Carnival is not happy. Carnival can't get involved for liability purposes but they can send a message to the Island of Antigua that this will not be tolerated.

How to send such a message you ask? Pull your ship from the island for a time. Message sent. Message received.
Could you post a link to where you found the factual EVIDENCE that the cabbie was wrong and/or that the police were/are,may be, in collusion with the cabbie.

NOT a media report as that is the reporter's opinion, it is not factual evidence of anything.
Not a bulletin board comment, again purely an opinion.
Not a blog, again opinion.

But factual evidence, do you have a link to an actual FACT?
  #71 (permalink)  
Old September 29th, 2009, 10:49 PM
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I don't see how anyone can expect Carnival , or any cruise line to be responsible for how people behave or misbehave on these islands and ports of call. Carnival is a conveyance--nothing more --nothing less---they take you to a certain location as a fare paying passenger on a vehicle--that vehicle being a ship. If you get off and make an ass of yourself and get in trouble, then how is Carnival to blame? Being novice travelers can't have any role in this-- I guess by saying " novice travelers " you are meaning they've never been anywhere and therefore don't know how to act outside New York and so should be excused from their actions.

I guess if I flew to Vegas and got into a fight in a casino with the staff and police and had never been there before, I should be excused because I was a " novice traveler " and too, it would partially be the airlines fault because they were the ones who flew me there in the first place.
Too funny.
  #72 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 08:01 AM
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OM: I know what you posted, but when I read the following last week, I returned to my original stance. In the end, it doesn't help anybody for you and I to argue about this.

Quote:
Just looking at the Antigua Sun Online report from last Friday. It includes testimony of one of the defendants. They clearly believed (or are claiming) that the fare was to be $50 round trip.

"As like Shoshonnah, her sister, Rachael too said the agreement with the taxi operator was for a sum of US$50 round trip. She said they were transported from Heritage Quay to Jolly Beach and about 1:30 p.m. Medica returned for them." http://www.antiguasunonline.com/news...ist-trial.html
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron
I don't see how anyone can expect Carnival , or any cruise line to be responsible for how people behave or misbehave on these islands and ports of call. Carnival is a conveyance--nothing more --nothing less---they take you to a certain location as a fare paying passenger on a vehicle--that vehicle being a ship. If you get off and make an ass of yourself and get in trouble, then how is Carnival to blame? Being novice travelers can't have any role in this-- I guess by saying " novice travelers " you are meaning they've never been anywhere and therefore don't know how to act outside New York and so should be excused from their actions.

I guess if I flew to Vegas and got into a fight in a casino with the staff and police and had never been there before, I should be excused because I was a " novice traveler " and too, it would partially be the airlines fault because they were the ones who flew me there in the first place.
Too funny.
No. Please do not simplify my post.

Whether or not you agree. Carnival does indeed look out for their passengers. They are very concerned about the safety, well being and happiness of their passengers. Sorry but Carnival is not a form of common carrier but rather the vacation destination. The Islands are but a quick reprieve from the activities on the ship.

Now, if you book yourself into an all inclusive resort and wandered off on your own and got into some sort of trouble, the resort is not legally responsible for your well being. However, it does not help the resort (or in this case the cruiseline) if stories like this pop up on a too regular basis. It just doesn't help anyone.

No one is above the law but. . . . exactly what part did the "law" (a.k.a cops) play in this escalating into this mess? No one knows but those that were present. As I read further, I am not saying the young people are completely innocent but I believe more of their version than I do the police/cabbie. Remember, the police have more in stake here than these young people. When this is over, the young people go home, go about their lives, repair their wrecked finances, get new jobs, etc. The police on the other hand are fighting to save their jobs/careers. If these kids are found not guilty and sue, what do you think happens to these particular police on this little island? Not a lot of good civil servants jobs on that island.

The situation got out of hand b/c the kids were angry and the cops did not handle themselves much better.

Come on, who really believes that these young people "attacked" the cops just 'cause???? That is ridiculous.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan40
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
[As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship.
Or....Read the contract......
What is the Code of Conduct?

We welcome you aboard and wish you a wonderful vacation on our vessel. We want every guest to have a truly enjoyable cruise experience. Therefore, please be considerate of your fellow guests while on board. Carnival will not tolerate any behavior affecting the comfort, enjoyment, health, safety or well-being of other guests or our crew. We reserve the right to to refuse or discontinue passage to anyone who, in Carnival's judgment, is conducting themselves in a manner that adversely affects the cruise experience of others. Please refer to paragraphs 6(b) and 24 of your ticket contract for more details on this important policy.

Now, one could say their behavior was off the ship and not directly affecting other passengers, but once on board if they were to carry on about how they were treated ashore and how Carnival must make it right....

Phil & Liz
What does the code of conduct have to do with the situation at hand? We cannot and should not speculate on how they may have behaved once onboard. I don't see them making a disturbance on the ship that would warrant them being put back off the ship. That is a ridiculous assumption.

The cabbie was wrong. Plus, at the point they asked to be let out of the cab and the cabbie took them somewhere else, would that not be considered kidnapping?

I don't know what happened but the more I learn about what went down, the more it stinks. Those were barely adults, probably on their first vacation. So unfortunate that the cabbie decided to try to rip them off. How unfair.

If the police was in collusion with the cabbie or just decided to back up the cabbie in his wrong deed, they are in big trouble. This is not going away quietly. If this is what happened (and Carnival would know), Carnival is not happy. Carnival can't get involved for liability purposes but they can send a message to the Island of Antigua that this will not be tolerated.

How to send such a message you ask? Pull your ship from the island for a time. Message sent. Message received.
Could you post a link to where you found the factual EVIDENCE that the cabbie was wrong and/or that the police were/are,may be, in collusion with the cabbie.

NOT a media report as that is the reporter's opinion, it is not factual evidence of anything.
Not a bulletin board comment, again purely an opinion.
Not a blog, again opinion.

But factual evidence, do you have a link to an actual FACT?
I can't state facts b/c I was not there. I can, however, state my opinion which is what I did. I have no obligation to provide proof to my opinion.

I believe the young people more than I believe the police/cabbie.

No way, no how did those urban young folks "attack" the police unprovoked. Those are Brooklyn young folks. The cops just opened up a can of "WhupAzz" and got more than they bargained for. I believe the cabbie/police didn't expect the kids to defend themselves.

Hmmm, must not know anyone from NYC!!!

I just don't believe the kids started the physical encounter. They probably mouthed off to police that are not used to being mouth offed to and when the cops grabbed/pushed/punched one of them, it was on.

That is a scenario I can believe.

Another thing to remember. . . . There is no telling how often this happens in Antigua. This may very well have been a well used scam. The average cruise passenger would have paid the extra money out of fear. I would not have paid but most passsengers would have paid just to get out of the situation. These were not your average Carnival passenger (middle-aged, white from Small Town, USA).

This has happened before. This cabbie just picked the wrong bunch.

Sorry, right now I am believing the kids over the cops.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 10:01 AM
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The Antigua Sun newspaper has the latest info today (Wed. 9/30/09). Go on the web and follow the story and read it for yourself. The reporters do a good job of reporting. There is a new story everday. Also, some of the other storys about Antigua are interesting. Makes you glad that you live in the good ole USA. OM
  #76 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 10:20 AM
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I personally believe that the passengers were taken advantage of, but were also complicit in the events due to not getting clarification(something you should obviously do in unfamiliar surroundings). Yes, New Yorkers are tough, but I find it hard to believe that they would lack that much judgment. Even gang members would have sense enough not to start something in a foreign land, as they would know they would have no back up and no way home. I think in the end we can call this a case of the foolishness of youth. First thing you do before you leave for another country is register with the local Embassy or Consulate. First thing you do if you are charged with a crime is to identify yourself as an American and ask to call the Embassy/Consulate or ask for it to be called upon your behalf. You never answer a single question in a foreign country without a lawyer present. I am assuming these kids did not even think to do this and likely assumed the laws were the same as what they are used to. These kinds of assumptions have been the reasons why American citizens have spent years in a Mexican prison before over slight infractions caused out of ignorance of the law. I would assume the case would be the same in Antigua or any other nation.
  #77 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 11:21 AM
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I just finished catching up on some of the news articles regarding this situation as reported by the Antigua Sun newspaper.

This is a hot mess!!!! The powers that be in Antigua are operating under the assumption and it seems as though Carnival did indeed pull the Victory from Antigua as a direct result of this mess.

According to news articles, other islands have special police in place to handle any dispute between tourist/cruise passengers and the locals. The idea is to get the cruise passengers back on the ship if at all possible.

The big honchos in Antigua are in an uproar. I am sure heads will roll over this. The cabbies on the island as well as the independant tour guides are all saying that their business is way way down as a result of this incident.

I still side with the kids.

According to testimony, the cops grabbed the arm of one of the young men from behind and the young man, not knowing who was grabbing him, shook the cop's hand off of his arm. At that point, the cop tried to arrest the young man and when his friends ask why was he being arrested, some associates of the cop jumped into the discussion and started swinging on the passengers. The passengers not knowing that these other people (both men and women) were cops because no one identified themselves or had on a uniform except the initial police officer (whom the female passengers initially ran up to for help), defended themselves because it seemed that these people in shorts and flip flop were trying to pull them into a garage like building.

I believe it. I also read some of the posts from the news website. Seems as though the police in Antigua have a bad rep and are known to bully people.

Oh well, that can of whupazz is really opened now.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 11:33 AM
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I guess these were options that the tourists were not aware of:
Quote:
If the tourists had done any, or all of the following: (1) Stolen 230 million dollars from the Medical Benefit Scheme. (2) Became the Prime Minister and have sex with an 11 year island girl. (3) Looted 11 million dollars from the airport fund. (4) Looted 6 million dollars from the treasury ship registry fund. (5) Giveaway Guiana Island for millions under the table. (6) Sell Antigua diplomatic passports to Columbian drug dealers for millions of dollars. (7) Import weapons from Israel and resell them to the Columbian drug dealers for millions. (8) Murdered a young girl and her medical student boyfriend because they observed a government sanctioned illegal drug operation. (9) Conspired with Rappaport to monopolize the importation of oil and stolen 30 million dollars from the treasury. (10) Paid Asot 12 million dollars of government money for land that is valued at only 2 million.

They would have gotten away with all of the above. There would have been no trial. What the hell were these tourists thinking? In Antigua we throw the book thrown at you for petty crime. Listen here you tourists, in the future, if you are not going to commit a “Sanford Size” fraud, you are gonna be sent straight to jail for your petty criminal activity.
from a reply to the story on ASO

Once again the $50 r/t fare is referenced in the testimony. I think it was a misunderstanding that went horribly wrong when both the cops (not in NYC blues) and some of the pax got together. There seem to be no real winners here. Except maybe St. Maarten.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_rd
There seem to be no real winners here. Except maybe St. Maarten.
You are so right.

However, it does my heart good to know that Carnival did not just leave those passengers and pretended that this incident didn't happen.

Carnival is not responsible for them but these were very young people and to allow this to happen to them without redress would have been the most hurtful thing. I hope these young people know that while they are going through this nightmare, they are making waves throughout the cruise industry and these port of call are now on notice that the local powers that be must police the interaction/victimization of their tourists.

For this I am appreciative of the way Carnival is handling this situation.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
Bob, you need to understand that I was only speaking about a small minority in regards to an otherwise honest people. I know the history of the romany people. It is pointless to debate the point further with someone who clearly does not understand what I am trying to say.
Sad, you really don't realize how bad you have it. Can't help the ones who cannot see...

Now about the "kids"... When all sides are complete I believe they will be shipped off the island as fast as the higher ups can. I bet a new police station will be built near the port and taxis will be required to have identification to enter the port area.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 02:07 PM
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Bob, you think me a fool. I just simply see the world as it is and try to understand other cultures. How many Americans are wise enough to do the same? I may sometimes come off as cold, but I do see the injustices in this world. I also see that nobody does anything about them, and that is something I intend to correct, even if I am the only one doing so.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsfamily
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
Bob, you need to understand that I was only speaking about a small minority in regards to an otherwise honest people. I know the history of the romany people. It is pointless to debate the point further with someone who clearly does not understand what I am trying to say.
Sad, you really don't realize how bad you have it. Can't help the ones who cannot see...

Now about the "kids"... When all sides are complete I believe they will be shipped off the island as fast as the higher ups can. I bet a new police station will be built near the port and taxis will be required to have identification to enter the port area.
and I bet you are 100% correct!!!
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Old September 30th, 2009, 02:40 PM
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IBCruzin, nobody is 100% correct. What is important is that each and every person strives to make this world a better place while preserving the different cultural heritages. In the end, what it is about is learning to respect each other.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 03:03 PM
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Folks, I have no clue as to the actual facts of the situation. But, I do know the facts of other, similar events. Friends got into a hassle in Jamaica. No opportunity to call a lawyer or consulate, or anybody else. They were manhandled into separate rooms at the police station. The wife was a former street kid who had the sense to realize that how we handle things in the US has NOTHING to do with what can and does happen elsewhere. She climbed out of a window and ran back to the ship. Her hubby spent a month in a large holding cell with a large group of local criminals. They gave him a sheet of newspaper to use as bedding...if he could hang onto it, which he didn't. No furniture and sanitary facilities consisted of a bucket in the corner which constantly overflowed. Wife called hubby's dad, who flew down and "bailed" his son out to the tune of thousands of dollars.

This is a sadly common scam in poor countries. The police are NOT there to protect tourists. And often, they work with other locals to find reasons to arrest people and then use the term "bail" when it is really a way of extorting money out of people. I almost got arrested for soliciting in Mexico once because I crossed my legs the "wrong" way. Cop said that putting my ankle up on the opposite knee, which I had done to retie my shoe was how prostitutes advertise. Talked my way out of it, but is was a close one.

Trying to engage the US Embassy or consulate or whatever only works if the US has one in that country and if the country is civilized enough to follow basic procedures. Don't expect that in tiny, dirt poor countries. To do so is naive and could land you in more trouble.

I don't want to discourage people from going. Most people in most of the world are good people. But, please don't expect to find things the same there as here. If they were the same, why travel?
Marty
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Old September 30th, 2009, 03:28 PM
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I am reasonably sure the US has a diplomatic mission to Antigua, but whether or not procedures will be followed is anyone's guess no matter how civilized the nation. There are dirty cops in every country after all.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
IBCruzin, nobody is 100% correct. What is important is that each and every person strives to make this world a better place while preserving the different cultural heritages. In the end, what it is about is learning to respect each other.
Loosen up. . .

I believe Bob's take on the final resolution is 100% correct. And yes, sometimes people are 100% correct. 100% Perfect no but 100% correct on certain assertions, quite often is the case.

Example: I predicted 2 years ago that Barack Obama would be elected president. I was 100% correct.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colorcrazie
Folks, I have no clue as to the actual facts of the situation. But, I do know the facts of other, similar events. Friends got into a hassle in Jamaica. No opportunity to call a lawyer or consulate, or anybody else. They were manhandled into separate rooms at the police station. The wife was a former street kid who had the sense to realize that how we handle things in the US has NOTHING to do with what can and does happen elsewhere. She climbed out of a window and ran back to the ship. Her hubby spent a month in a large holding cell with a large group of local criminals. They gave him a sheet of newspaper to use as bedding...if he could hang onto it, which he didn't. No furniture and sanitary facilities consisted of a bucket in the corner which constantly overflowed. Wife called hubby's dad, who flew down and "bailed" his son out to the tune of thousands of dollars.

This is a sadly common scam in poor countries. The police are NOT there to protect tourists. And often, they work with other locals to find reasons to arrest people and then use the term "bail" when it is really a way of extorting money out of people. I almost got arrested for soliciting in Mexico once because I crossed my legs the "wrong" way. Cop said that putting my ankle up on the opposite knee, which I had done to retie my shoe was how prostitutes advertise. Talked my way out of it, but is was a close one.

Trying to engage the US Embassy or consulate or whatever only works if the US has one in that country and if the country is civilized enough to follow basic procedures. Don't expect that in tiny, dirt poor countries. To do so is naive and could land you in more trouble.

I don't want to discourage people from going. Most people in most of the world are good people. But, please don't expect to find things the same there as here. If they were the same, why travel?
Marty
Excellent post!!!!
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old September 30th, 2009, 04:16 PM
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And Bob is completely full of himself. I tend to look at how the small details fit in the big picture. Looking at this situation through the eyes of an American lifestyle is foolhardy at best, and is at the heart of ethnocentrism(the belief that your own culture is superior to other cultures), as compare to cultural relativism(comparative study of cultures). I think these kids simply did not make an effort to even attempt to understand the culture there and that is the most likely culprit. I am not saying people should not have opinions, just to have opinions that are well grounded in facts within the grand scheme of things. People who go into another culture believing their culture is superior are an easy target to be knocked down a few notches by the locals.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad813
And Bob is completely full of himself. I tend to look at how the small details fit in the big picture. Looking at this situation through the eyes of an American lifestyle is foolhardy at best, and is at the heart of ethnocentrism(the belief that your own culture is superior to other cultures), as compare to cultural relativism(comparative study of cultures). I think these kids simply did not make an effort to even attempt to understand the culture there and that is the most likely culprit. I am not saying people should not have opinions, just to have opinions that are well grounded in facts within the grand scheme of things. People who go into another culture believing their culture is superior are an easy target to be knocked down a few notches by the locals.
I believe none of what you say here is applicable to the situation at hand.

What initiated this encounter has nothing to do with the "culture" of Antigua.

Base on various accounts of what transpired, there was some sort of modification of the fee to take these 11/12 people where they wanted to go. The cabbie quoted $50 but after the kids got into van, the cabbie changed it to $100 for whatever reason.

Now, no where in what I described above leaves room or the necessarity to "understand" or learn another country's custom.

What this cabbie attempted to do used to be done in NYC on a regular basis to foreign vistiors being picked up from the area airports. Often these tourist were given completely round about routes costing them hundreds of dollars for a $50 ride. It go so bad that the Taxi and Limosuine commission finally had to crack down. There is now a flat rate to go anywhere into Manhattan from the airport. When you enter a taxi at a NYC area airport, you are given a ticket with the cab's id no and an general estimate of the cost of your trip. On this ticket is the phone number to file a complaint and clear instructions on what to do if you feel you have been a victim of some sort of ill-treatment or scam.

This is in NYC. Not a foreign country. Therefore, the idea that the cabbie was trying to rip these kids off is not farfetched. It happens everywhere where there is not strong and clear regulation and enforcement.
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Old September 30th, 2009, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil&Liz
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Originally Posted by IBCRUZIN'
[As far as Carnival is concerned, I am sure these young people are banned from ever cruising on Carnival again. However, Carnival cannot have their passengers detained. Short of drugs, murder, terrorism or some other very serious, very violent act, the passenger MUST be allowed to return to the ship.
Or....Read the contract......
What is the Code of Conduct?

We welcome you aboard and wish you a wonderful vacation on our vessel. We want every guest to have a truly enjoyable cruise experience. Therefore, please be considerate of your fellow guests while on board. Carnival will not tolerate any behavior affecting the comfort, enjoyment, health, safety or well-being of other guests or our crew. We reserve the right to to refuse or discontinue passage to anyone who, in Carnival's judgment, is conducting themselves in a manner that adversely affects the cruise experience of others. Please refer to paragraphs 6(b) and 24 of your ticket contract for more details on this important policy.

Now, one could say their behavior was off the ship and not directly affecting other passengers, but once on board if they were to carry on about how they were treated ashore and how Carnival must make it right....

Phil & Liz
What does the code of conduct have to do with the situation at hand?
What the above has to do with is your assumption that the ship MUST let them return. No--they MUST NOT. No carrier MUST allow a pax back on. THAT is the error here. That is why the code was quoted. It states that they may refuse passage.

Phil & Liz
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