There are different rules for closed loop cruises. So the example above, the ship leaves and returns to Port Canaveral so the ship only has to visit a foreign port, not a foreign distant port. It's like the Hawaii cruises from LA...they do LA return, but hit Ensenada for an hour or two to satisfy the PVSA. What they can't do is LA to Honolulu one way without hitting a Foreign Distant port. You'll see the one way Hawaii cruises all start or end in Vancouver to get around this.
OK, got it. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees :-). Guess I'm getting along in years. Anyway, thanks for the explanation.
Hi - it's Customs and Border Protection's responsibility. A lot of times the cruise lines are clueless about being in violation...especially if the cruises are booked separately. Then they turn their passenger manifests over a couple of weeks before the cruise. That's when you can usually expect a call that you have to cancel if the cruise line didn't catch it at first.
Just out of curiosity....who is it that tracks the passenger to know they have violated?
If its the ship, then the "company" knows of the violation at some point.
If it is not the ship, who "orders" the ship to bill/fine the passenger?
Is it DHS, ICE, Treasury, Justice Dept? I
Is the Hotel Director enpowered with authority by some entity?:neutral:
Good questions. It's DHS and I think it happens more than we know and the ships avoid it unless it is noticed by DHS. They (DHS) fine the ship and the ship passes along the charges. At least that's what I understand.
I bet that HAL violates it a lot because of their HQ being in Seattle. Sales, TA's, Marketing, Cruise Management are not exempt and I bet they do it in order to save air fares. For example: If John Heald was on this cruise he would be in violation if he was brand ambassador, but not if he was the Cruise Director. Weird. The regulations say that crew involved in the everyday function of the ship are exempt. The only exception I found was for spouses of officers traveling with them on the ship.
....That's when you can usually expect a call that you have to cancel if the cruise line didn't catch it at first...
This is where you and I disagree. The HAVE TO CANCEL part. I was assured that they will not cancel you if you say that you are not cancelling. You sail at your own risk.
In my example they know it now. Why don't they cancel now.
Good questions. It's DHS and I think it happens more than we know and the ships avoid it unless it is noticed by DHS. They (DHS) fine the ship and the ship passes along the charges. At least that's what I understand.
I bet that HAL violates it a lot because of their HQ being in Seattle. Sales, TA's, Marketing, Cruise Management are not exempt and I bet they do it in order to save air fares. For example: If John Heald was on this cruise he would be in violation if he was brand ambassador, but not if he was the Cruise Director. Weird. The regulations say that crew involved in the everyday function of the ship are exempt. The only exception I found was for spouses of officers traveling with them on the ship.
The law doesn't apply to staff..only Passengers. This is how they get around entertainment getting on and off, John as a cruise director would loosely fall under this.
We're going to have to agree to disagree with your second post as you're the only person I've ever read saying you don't have to cancel. Everyone else has been forced to cancel or has not been able to book in the first place if it's a sharp rep doing the booking. I believe you mentioned on CC that you were unable to get the fact in writing from Carnival that they'd let you book and you would be responsible for the fine. It's not a if you're caught, Customs will catch it and will fine the cruise line.
And let me ask you this...in the past, there have been lots of reports of people having to cancel after final payment when the cruise lines failed to catch the original booking... if the cruise line is willing to just say whatever, you're responsible if you get caught...why would they offer people $300+ OBC for the passenger's trouble or offer to rebate their changes in airfare? a cruise line would not do that out of pocket expense if it could just let you sail those itineraries at your own risk.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
Last edited by Trackypup; December 15th, 2011 at 09:01 PM.
The law doesn't apply to staff..only Passengers. This is how they get around entertainment getting on and off, John as a cruise director would loosely fall under this.
We're going to have to agree to disagree with your second post as you're the only person I've ever read saying you don't have to cancel. Everyone else has been forced to cancel or has not been able to book in the first place if it's a sharp rep doing the booking. I believe you mentioned on CC that you were unable to get the fact in writing from Carnival that they'd let you book and you would be responsible for the fine. It's not a if you're caught, Customs will catch it and will fine the cruise line.
And let me ask you this...in the past, there have been lots of reports of people having to cancel after final payment when the cruise lines failed to catch the original booking... if the cruise line is willing to just say whatever, you're responsible if you get caught...why would they offer people $300+ OBC for the passenger's trouble or offer to rebate their changes in airfare? a cruise line would not do that out of pocket expense if it could just let you sail those itineraries at your own risk.
Depends on what you mean by staff. It may, and probably includes everyone on board, but it does not include all cruise line employees. It depends on their function. They cite several examples.
The in-writing part was not me. It was someone who asked for a guarantee in writing. I replied to him that CCL would never put anything in writing. They would not do anything to help facilitate them.
I don't know anything about any OBC being offered...I'm not following you on that. If they are fined, they pass that charge on to the pax.
Agreed, they pass on the fine...but what's been happening is that because the cruise lines have allowed bookings and then not realized until much later that they're in violation of the PVSA, they've been coughing up on board credit to the people that they've made cancel their cruise because the line never should have allowed the booking in the first place. They've been paying both OBC and air change fees...that's what I'm questioning..if they ever said..sure cruise at your own risk and you pay the fine, they'd be no way they'd cough up OBC and air fees for their mistake, they'd just take the booking and deal with the $300 fine if it came up.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
Agreed, they pass on the fine...but what's been happening is that because the cruise lines have allowed bookings and then not realized until much later that they're in violation of the PVSA, they've been coughing up on board credit to the people that they've made cancel their cruise because the line never should have allowed the booking in the first place. They've been paying both OBC and air change fees...that's what I'm questioning..if they ever said..sure cruise at your own risk and you pay the fine, they'd be no way they'd cough up OBC and air fees for their mistake, they'd just take the booking and deal with the $300 fine if it came up.
OIC....yes I bet your right. If someone books it and the line doesn't notice and gets fined. The pax could say they should have been told about it..they probably do just issue a credit equal to fine. I can see that.
That's basically what they (CCL) were doing in the call to my friends...telling them that THEY would be responsible for the $300 fine if it was issued. Sure.
I think they (cruiselines) try to 'scare' them into cancelling first and if that doesn't happen issue the warning of the potential $300 fine. They would prefer not to deal with it so that is their approach.
Did you see the latest response to your post on CC? Someone tried to book the same as your friends and were told no. They offered to pay the fine and were still told no.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
Did you see the latest response to your post on CC? Someone tried to book the same as your friends and were told no. They offered to pay the fine and were still told no.
No did not see it....I really don't go over there much...only did for this topic.
After all I'm a mod here at Cruisemates.
The one you mention it sounds like the difference would be that they were trying to book and Carnival would not book anyone if they know it upfront..that would be facilitating again. My friends already have two confirmed bookings. It's a great option...air from Texas to San Diego is cheap and the cruise is cheap.
No did not see it....I really don't go over there much...only did for this topic.
After all I'm a mod here at Cruisemates.
The one you mention it sounds like the difference would be that they were trying to book and Carnival would not book anyone if they know it upfront..that would be facilitating again. My friends already have two confirmed bookings. It's a great option...air from Texas to San Diego is cheap and the cruise is cheap.
Please report back if they actually are able to take the two cruises. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
I'm somewhat surprised that Carnival would even allow the cruise, which is against the law (even if you don't like the law) to be booked.
And really aghast that a representative of Carnival would say... ah, it's ok, they'll only have to pay the fine if anyone happens to notice.
I would guess that if it was discovered that Carnival was intentionally selling cruises that contravened the act they would be in for much more serious problems than a simple $300 fine.
I'd also imagine that Carnival Corp. wouldn't have a supportive view of one of their representatives explaining their position in those terms.
The main problem is how the bookings are linked.
I booked Princess from LA to Vancouver . Then Vancouver to Seattle via Victoria . Princess cancelled both bookings because the combined cruise is from La to Seattle . The only way I could of done it was if had
1 - overnight in Vancouver
or
2 - Changed Princess cruises in Vancouver ( different ships)
In effect you can't sail from California to Seattle or Alaska without contravening the "Jones Act".
The cruise line computer cancelled this cruise about after booking.
Paradise from LA to Catalina, Ensenada, and back. Missed the first day and boarded in Catalina. Carnival charged me $300 for that Jones act violation. Could have avoided the charge by boarding in Ensenada, but would have missed 2 days of a 4 day trip.
Paradise from LA to Catalina, Ensenada, and back. Missed the first day and boarded in Catalina. Carnival charged me $300 for that Jones act violation. Could have avoided the charge by boarding in Ensenada, but would have missed 2 days of a 4 day trip.
Thanks for reply. Evidently it is that simple. A fine of $300 for a violation. I had some who have done it confirm with me by PM. If the trip itinerary works and it's worth it to them they do it. (i.e. you live in Southern California and if your airfare is $300 to Seattle or Vancouver you might as well take the cruise and fine)
BTW--my friends ended up canceling the first leg of the B2B.
Paradise from LA to Catalina, Ensenada, and back. Missed the first day and boarded in Catalina. Carnival charged me $300 for that Jones act violation. Could have avoided the charge by boarding in Ensenada, but would have missed 2 days of a 4 day trip.
I really don't think the fine was for the Jones Act . More of a administrative penal the Carnival demanded , even thou they said it is "Jones Act "penalty.
Thanks for reply. Evidently it is that simple. A fine of $300 for a violation. I had some who have done it confirm with me by PM. If the trip itinerary works and it's worth it to them they do it. (i.e. you live in Southern California and if your airfare is $300 to Seattle or Vancouver you might as well take the cruise and fine)
BTW--my friends ended up canceling the first leg of the B2B.
From reading posts it does seem like Carnival is the only cruise line willingingly circumventing (or look the other way) the PVSA.
If a time comes where they are caught, they would be in very big doo doo me thinks.
Paradise from LA to Catalina, Ensenada, and back. Missed the first day and boarded in Catalina. Carnival charged me $300 for that Jones act violation. Could have avoided the charge by boarding in Ensenada, but would have missed 2 days of a 4 day trip.
But that's a little different from what was being proposed. Carnival didn't willingly let you book something that was illegal. You missed the ship, they allowed you to catch it for a penalty. Both breaking the PVSA, but definitely different scenarios.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
My friends cancelled (on their own) the first leg of the cruise.
This was a learning experience for sure. My initial thoughts were wrong. There is no doubt that doing this is a violation of the PVSA.
Also I have discovered that various cruise lines handle this in different ways (as Kuki notes above). HAL, X, CCL do it differently..that's one reason we have so many different answers. I am very confident in what would have happened and if I didn't have a conflict would consider booking this myself just to personally confirm. Thanks to those that sent personal proof, I know you do not want to draw undo attention to this situation.
I think if we could eliminate the 'coastwise' options of the PSVA it would open up many more cruising options on the west coast. It can be done, the 'Coastwise Laws' are already separated from the rest of the act.
I have been contacting my US Congressmen for months to do away with the PVSA.
I can't help but think that smaller ships sailing from places like Mobile to Key West or Galveston would work. It would help the East Coast and West Coast as well.
Not only that, but when there are mechanical issues or weather or swine flu, cruise lines would have much more flexibility.
In my limited research, I believe the official "Jones Act" dealt with Cargo...(which is why folks have always said it is untouchable). But the PVSA appears to be an addendum to the Jones Act that could easily be reversed.
If that is the case, we need to get it revoked.
It definitely needs to go.
I totally agree! If there was no PVSA, we could have cruises from Boston to Miami. The only reason no cruise lines schedule East Coast cruises like that is that stupid law. So many ports of call are on that side of the United States and here I am stuck with only a couple Bahamas cruises, a Gulf of Mexico cruise, and Caribbean cruises unless I drive 7 hours to Fort Lauderdale. None of those itineraries appeal to me and neither does the cruise line (NCL) that makes no stops. Imagine not having to pay hundreds of dollars to fly over 3,000 miles because you could drive to the embarkation port!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackypup
Nope. It's where you board and where you disembark in this case boarding in San Diego and disembarking in Seattle. 100% violation of the PVSA as there is no visit to a foreign DISTANT port.
The original post describes two cruises. That means it does satisfy the PVSA because each cruise starts in one country and ends in another. Debarkation for most people will be in Vancouver because that is where the first cruise ends. What is wrong with that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackypup
It's not a foreign port it needs to visit. It's a foreign DISTANT port. No port in North America fits this description
This thread does make me think about my first cruise. It complies with the PVSA, but I thought, "That cruise is similar to mine!" because I will sail from LA to Vancouver in the Sapphire Princess northbound repositioning cruise. If Seattle was going to be the port I debark at, that would be a violation of the PVSA because Victoria is not a distant port - only within driving distance of Seattle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackypup
From what I understand is it's not measured in mileage.
I've never, ever read anyone able to actually book something that violates the PVSA. Only people that have had to pay the fine because they've had to disembark because of an emergency.
Tracky, how can you call a port distant if it is not measured by mileage? The word mile refers to distance, so that does not make any sense.
If passengers have to pay a fine for debarking before they get to the distant foreign port, I hope cruise insurance covers it. The last thing you want to do during an emergency is give the government $300.
Two cruises, three cruises, six cruises..doesn't matter. It's where you board and where you disembark if it's two different US ports you need to visit a foreign DISTANT port. Distant is now measured by mileage, it is anything not in North America.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
Two cruises, three cruises, six cruises..doesn't matter. It's where you board and where you disembark if it's two different US ports you need to visit a foreign DISTANT port. Distant is now measured by mileage, it is anything not in North America.
It would only be one passenger, not the cruise line, who must pay $300 because the original plan was to take two BTB cruises.
It would only be one passenger, not the cruise line, who must pay $300 because the original plan was to take two BTB cruises.
The ship is fined, they then pass that on to the passenger. You cannot intentionally break the PVSA a cruise line will not let you book anything. Accidents happen and people have to leave ships. Not sure if your insurance would cover that $300 or not.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
This should be fixed by now! People have been complaining for years .
We were looking at an Alaska cruise ending in Vancouver, then a Panama Canal cruise beginning in Vancouver. We can't do it . The PVSA is a PITB!
There should be nothing wrong with what you describe. Talk to a supervisor. Doing the Panama Canal they MUST hit a foreign distant port. They're wrong if they won't let you book.
__________________ Cruised: Celebrity, HAL, NCL, Princess & Royal Caribbean
Upcoming: Celebrity Equinox - Eastern Med. Hawaii - land trip Royal Princess - Transatlantic
There should be nothing wrong with what you describe. Talk to a supervisor. Doing the Panama Canal they MUST hit a foreign distant port. They're wrong if they won't let you book.
Looking forward to cruising!
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