CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums

CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/)
-   Carnival Cruise Lines (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/carnival-cruise-lines/)
-   -   Jones Act Question (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/carnival-cruise-lines/386501-jones-act-question.html)

Snoozeman December 13th, 2011 10:59 AM

Jones Act Question
 
I hope someone can help me with this question.

I have friends doing a B2B on the Carnival Spirit sailing from San Diego to Vancouver. Then sailing on the Spirit from Vancouver to Alaska with final debark in Seattle.

Is this in violation of the Jones act?

ScurvyDog December 13th, 2011 11:53 AM

When we were on the Spirit after leaving Alaska we made a brief stop in Victoria Canada
prior to debark in Seattle which made it comply with the law. Ours was roundtrip from Seattle.

john_galt December 13th, 2011 06:26 PM

As I understand the regulation, a ship using a non-union crew cannot depart from and return to a US port without docking at a foreign port at some point during the voyage. I think the fact the two cruises each begin and end in different countries covers the Jones Act requirement.

I have read that the cruise lines will not allow a passenger to join a cruise in progress under certain conditions. As an example, a passenger who misses the departure from Vancover would not be allowed to join the cruise in Alaska if the ship was not scheduled to make a foreign port call before the cruise ends in Seattle.

Kuki December 13th, 2011 06:50 PM

There was a thread very similar to this (though it was a back to back cruise to Quebec.

Bruce Chafkin, a hotel director on a ship, offered a very good explanation of why it was NOT allowed.

http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/ask...ml

Because this cruise, you're talking about, does not begin and end in the same city, I think the law as Bruce describes wouldn't allow it.

You have to note the difference in definition from a "foreign port" and a "distant foreign port".

Snoozeman December 13th, 2011 07:40 PM

Yes I agree that it does violate the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886.
It's just antiquated.:mad:


What I have been working on is: So What!
Looks like a $300 fine is the only penalty.

I'm sure my friends will cancel one leg, but I am now so curious about this situation. I have an event on May 5th or I would book this myself in order to find out first hand what would happen. I've heard so much BS from people who have no real experience.

zydecocruiser December 14th, 2011 05:07 PM

Are there any countries that are mail order passport mills? :cool:

Snoozeman December 14th, 2011 05:33 PM

I guess they could use the Texas Republic passport.

I don't think it's a big deal. :cool:

I keep hearing that Carnival will cancel one, but I know that is NOT the case. Everything is hearsay. It happened to my friend, my cousin, etc. No one has first hand experience. Carnival pressures people to cancel one, but they won't do it themselves.

Similar to the SOLAS requirements on boat drill--what it says and what they (CCL) say it says are two different things. (did that make since):rolleyes:

Trackypup December 14th, 2011 05:58 PM

I would be shocked if Carnival let this go through. They could be banned from cruising that coast if someone wanted to push it. It goes far deeper than a $300 fine for a willing violation.

Snoozeman December 14th, 2011 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackypup (Post 1405718)
I would be shocked if Carnival let this go through. They could be banned from cruising that coast if someone wanted to push it. It goes far deeper than a $300 fine for a willing violation.

Actually Carnival will let it happen. I confirmed that myself yesterday. Carnival can not facilitate it, but they won't actually stop it either. They just warn you of a possible $300 fine.

If it's as serious as you seem to think and they were going to cancel one, why wouldn't they just cancel it NOW? I think it is more common than most know. Depending on air fares and other variables it may be worth the possible $300.

If it were me I'd do it, but it's not me. Very good friends here in Bosque county though.

Trackypup December 14th, 2011 06:50 PM

That's complete insanity on Carnival's part. From what I understand if they willingly violate the PVSA the vessel can be confiscated with huge fines as well as restrictions on where the line can sail. Why would they be stupid enough to actually let someone book this. I've never seen another cruise line willingly let someone book a cruise that violates the PVSA.

lhp December 14th, 2011 07:09 PM

I have been contacting my US Congressmen for months to do away with the PVSA.

I can't help but think that smaller ships sailing from places like Mobile to Key West or Galveston would work. It would help the East Coast and West Coast as well.

Not only that, but when there are mechanical issues or weather or swine flu.... cruise lines would have much more flexibility.

In my limited research, I believe the official "Jones Act" dealt with Cargo...(which is why folks have always said it is untouchable). But the PVSA appears to be an addendum to the Jones Act that could easily be reversed.

If that is the case, we need to get it revoked.

It definately needs to go....

Snoozeman December 14th, 2011 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackypup (Post 1405726)
That's complete insanity on Carnival's part. From what I understand if they willingly violate the PVSA the vessel can be confiscated with huge fines as well as restrictions on where the line can sail. Why would they be stupid enough to actually let someone book this. I've never seen another cruise line willingly let someone book a cruise that violates the PVSA.

My point exactly. If it were that serious then they wouldn't allow it to happen. Or they would just cancel one. As long as they (CCL) did not facilitate, they are not in violation, the passenger is in violation. At least that is my understanding. Again I bet it happens more than we know.

Your in Vancouver, make some calls to some customs folks and see what they say about it. They would probably be more likely to tell us how common it may be since it's a US deal and not Canadian. I bet they know.

JoeMo December 14th, 2011 10:49 PM

I re-read the original post and it appears to me..... The first cruise begins in the U.S. and ends in Canada. The passengers MUST debark. ( Cruise ended) The second cruise begins in Canada and ends in the U.S.. ( Second cruise ended ) Sounds like the requirements of the Jones act have been fulfilled.

Kuki December 14th, 2011 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lhp (Post 1405729)
I have been contacting my US Congressmen for months to do away with the PVSA.

I can't help but think that smaller ships sailing from places like Mobile to Key West or Galveston would work. It would help the East Coast and West Coast as well.

Not only that, but when there are mechanical issues or weather or swine flu.... cruise lines would have much more flexibility.

In my limited research, I believe the official "Jones Act" dealt with Cargo...(which is why folks have always said it is untouchable). But the PVSA appears to be an addendum to the Jones Act that could easily be reversed.

If that is the case, we need to get it revoked.

It definately needs to go....

It applies to Passenger Vessels... which include airplanes, trains, and I would assume busses.

Kuki December 14th, 2011 11:07 PM

Again.. I'd encourage those reading this thread to read the posts on the same subject by Bruce Chafkin in this other thread. Here's that link again.

I think it explains the situation very well.

http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/ask...ml#post1401548

Trackypup December 14th, 2011 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeMo (Post 1405751)
I re-read the original post and it appears to me..... The first cruise begins in the U.S. and ends in Canada. The passengers MUST debark. ( Cruise ended) The second cruise begins in Canada and ends in the U.S.. ( Second cruise ended ) Sounds like the requirements of the Jones act have been fulfilled.

Nope. It's where you board and where you disembark in this case boarding in San Diego and disembarking in Seattle. 100% violation of the PVSA as there is no visit to a foreign DISTANT port.

zydecocruiser December 14th, 2011 11:18 PM

In this context, the "Jones" act is protectionism to protect an industry that died out long ago. To protect USA jobs that haven't existed this century. In many ways, exactly what the USA opposes other countries doing.

It would have died long ago except unions are opposed.

For NCL to cruise Hawaii took union approval and an act of Congress.

Since I think just about every major airline has now gone bankrupt, there are no major US cruise lines left, and even bus and train companies have gone bankrupt, the law, much like the Cuban embargo, is a historic FAILURE, and an embarrassment to law makers and Americans alike. Since only Americans are impacted, it is laughable to the rest of the world and yet another example of bureaucratic hypocrisy.

Of course we all know that Congress persons' main objective is to keep being reelected and lobbyists and/or unions happy.

Snoozeman December 14th, 2011 11:20 PM

I don't disagree with Bruce's comments at all.

The entire act is only a few (9-10) pages, short for a Gov't document. Just reread it for second time tonight. Doesn't say anywhere that it can not be done, just that there is a fine if you do. There is no penalty to cruise line beyond the $300 per passenger.

That's all I am saying..you do not HAVE TO cancel one of the mentioned cruises, but be prepared to pay the fine if you don't.

Snoozeman December 14th, 2011 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackypup (Post 1405757)
Nope. It's where you board and where you disembark in this case boarding in San Diego and disembarking in Seattle. 100% violation of the PVSA as there is no visit to a foreign DISTANT port.

Correct....

Trackypup December 15th, 2011 12:12 AM

I just read 13 pages on this on CC. Carnival was swearing it was all fine..no problem then boom..you must cancel one of your cruises. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable making air arrangements over something that I knew was in violation. NCL did the same thing until 2 weeks before the cruise. Not a position I'd put myself in.

Master Chief December 15th, 2011 12:23 PM

Getting into this discussion a little bit late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoozeman (Post 1405529)
I hope someone can help me with this question.
I have friends doing a B2B on the Carnival Spirit sailing from San Diego to Vancouver. Then sailing on the Spirit from Vancouver to Alaska with final debark in Seattle.

Is this in violation of the Jones act?

Am I missing something here? As I understand the regulation, a ship using a non-union crew cannot depart from and return to a US port without docking at a foreign port at some point during the voyage. San Diego (US Port) to Vancouver (Foreign Port) Vancouver (Foreign Port) to Alaska (US Port) appears to meet the provisions of the Jones Act.

Seems to me all is fine.

Trackypup December 15th, 2011 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Chief (Post 1405802)
Getting into this discussion a little bit late.



Am I missing something here? As I understand the regulation, a ship using a non-union crew cannot depart from and return to a US port without docking at a foreign port at some point during the voyage. San Diego (US Port) to Vancouver (Foreign Port) Vancouver (Foreign Port) to Alaska (US Port) appears to meet the provisions of the Jones Act.

Seems to me all is fine.

It's not a foreign port it needs to visit..It's a foreign DISTANT port. No port in North America fits this description.

Snoozeman December 15th, 2011 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Chief (Post 1405802)
Getting into this discussion a little bit late.



Am I missing something here? As I understand the regulation, a ship using a non-union crew cannot depart from and return to a US port without docking at a foreign port at some point during the voyage. San Diego (US Port) to Vancouver (Foreign Port) Vancouver (Foreign Port) to Alaska (US Port) appears to meet the provisions of the Jones Act.

Seems to me all is fine.

I believed the exact same thing and when my friends called and asked me I told them that on face value it seems like it is fine. Just as you outline above. But I thought I would need to confirm it because that's something I need to know. Well upon research I was not correct as Vancouver is considered a 'near' foreign port. If it's a closed loop cruise it satisfies the requirement, but since the ship originates in San Diego and ends up in Seattle (two different US cities) they must visit a 'far' foreign port.

The question I now have after researching this very thoroughly is how big a deal is it really. I suspect it's not as big a deal as most imply. I think it's a $300 fine and that's it. That's the maximum penalty. I think it can be done and is done more often than we know. But one does it at their own risk.

Snoozeman December 15th, 2011 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackypup (Post 1405768)
I just read 13 pages on this on CC. Carnival was swearing it was all fine..no problem then boom..you must cancel one of your cruises. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable making air arrangements over something that I knew was in violation. NCL did the same thing until 2 weeks before the cruise. Not a position I'd put myself in.

I read through all that too. I think there was actually one person who knew the answer to my now basic question as to how common it is really done. It's like admitting you don't do boat drill, so few will admit they knowingly do it. His answer was that they fine the line $300 and the line then puts it on your sail&sign card. I believe it is that simple.

Master Chief December 15th, 2011 02:26 PM

OK, i buy "distant port" but how far is a "distant port?" Is Victoria Island, Canada where some of the ships stop before going to Seattle a distant port? Seems like splitting hairs here. Yea, I know, that's exactly what the Gov wants you to do. Seems there would be more interest in the immigratiojn front then the port to port front. Oh well, I'll just stay on the East coast :-)

Donna December 15th, 2011 03:40 PM

So, the,( in this case) $300 question, what makes it a near foreign port compared to a distant one, is there a # of miles???

Trackypup December 15th, 2011 04:42 PM

From what I understand is it's not measured in mileage..and it's Vancouver Island, not Victoria Island. Nothing in North America satisfies this rule...the closest is South America or one of the ABCs..Aruba, Bonaire or Curacao. So when ships do the LA to Ft. Lauderdale, they're fine as there are stops in South America as well as usually Aruba.

I've never, ever read anyone able to actually book something that violates the PVSA..only people that have had to pay the fine because they've had to disembark because of an emergency.

Master Chief December 15th, 2011 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trackypup (Post 1405815)
From what I understand is it's not measured in mileage..and it's Vancouver Island, not Victoria Island. Nothing in North America satisfies this rule...the closest is South America or one of the ABCs..Aruba, Bonaire or Curacao. So when ships do the LA to Ft. Lauderdale, they're fine as there are stops in South America as well as usually Aruba.

I've never, ever read anyone able to actually book something that violates the PVSA..only people that have had to pay the fine because they've had to disembark because of an emergency.

Yes, it is Vancouver Island. My bad. Not to be picky, when you say North America do you mean the actual continent? I ask because the Carnival Dream out of Port Canaveral goes to Nassau (foreign) then St. Thoms (US) and then St, Maarten (foreign) and then back to Port Canaveral. I assume that Nassau and St. Maarten meet the foreign port requirement? And are "distant" anough?

Trackypup December 15th, 2011 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Chief (Post 1405816)
Yes, it is Vancouver Island. My bad. Not to be picky, when you say North America do you mean the actual continent? I ask because the Carnival Dream out of Port Canaveral goes to Nassau (foreign) then St. Thoms (US) and then St, Maarten (foreign) and then back to Port Canaveral. I assume that Nassau and St. Maarten meet the foreign port requirement? And are "distant" anough?

There are different rules for closed loop cruises. So the example above, the ship leaves and returns to Port Canaveral so the ship only has to visit a foreign port, not a foreign distant port. It's like the Hawaii cruises from LA...they do LA return, but hit Ensenada for an hour or two to satisfy the PVSA. What they can't do is LA to Honolulu one way without hitting a Foreign Distant port. You'll see the one way Hawaii cruises all start or end in Vancouver to get around this.

Trackypup December 15th, 2011 05:28 PM

Coles notes on PVSA:

Does your cruise start in a US Port? If No..stop reading. If Yes… does you cruise end in a US Port? If the answer is No, stop reading….. If it’s the same US port where you started…. stop reading….if a different US port… does your cruise go to South America or Aruba, Bonaire or Curacao, Tahiti, basically any other continent than North America…if yes, you’re fine…if no, you’re likely in violation of the PVSA.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1