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  #1 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2001, 07:26 PM
Buffy
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Default Why Do You All Hate Children

pamda wrote:
>
> Hi, Buffy ...
>
> Tots on cruise ships has historically been a hot topic.
>
> Don't worry that you started a discussion. That's what we
> are here for, so long as it doesn't get nasty.
>
> In the best of all possible worlds, you could do as a friend
> did. Bring along an au pair and take two adjoining cabins.
> That way, when you and Mr. Buffy are done for the evening,
> the au pair can hit the disco and you can leave the door open
> so you can hear the baby.
>
> That said, the problems associated with carting along a
> toddler are not insignificant. From the frazzled young
> parents I've observed chasing kids on cruise ships, it
> doesn't look like a very romantic or relaxing vacation for
> Mom and Dad.
>
> Keep in mind that babysitters are usually staff members who
> sit when it suits them.
>
> Overall, I'm in the camp that says "not such a great idea" ...
>
> pamda -- CM First Time Cruisers Hostess

Au pair?!! Good grief what kind of advice is that? I cannot believe the elitist attitude of some here. I just came for advice on taking my two year old son on a cruise not to be insulted. A few of you have been pleasant, most of you seem so uptight at the thought of children cruising. Believe it or not some children are well behaved.

Buffy
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2001, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Your initial question was "Should I take a 2 year old on a cruise". Now it appears that you did not want opinions other than "Yes of course you should take a 2 year old on a cruise". I am sorry that you do not like the varied opinions that you received. But please do not assume that persons who consider a 2 hour dinner marathon every night too much to expect of a toddler, child haters. On the contrary they have the child's welfare at heart. If you want to go on the cruise go and take your child but do not expect the 2 year old to have a ball.
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Old June 30th, 2001, 08:46 PM
Dale
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Hi Buffy, sorry to find you so upset. As to what cruiseline would be good for young children, it looks like you received good advice.
Point taken about well behaved children. When my daughter was two she was an absolute living angel. We could take her anywhere and she was so sweet and well behaved that everyone loved her. Must admit my husband and I used to wonder about "the terrible twos" because we never experienced them. Unfortunately we were unaware that she was saving all those upsets and tantrums until her teens. Then we received a double whammy of absolute hell!

Your post was headed "should I take my two year old" and I think most people saying no, still were only trying to help. The great thing about this board is you get advice from real people and their experiences. From the responses you now know what ships are better suited to your child, information about baby sitting services, and yes, that some people have had bad experiences with badly behaved parents (because they are the problem, not the kids). Also I know that many on this board are parents and so they also know that sometimes it is great to get away from the kids, no matter how much we love them. So I hope you take all the advice, weigh up what is best for you and keep coming back here.
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Old June 30th, 2001, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

I have to say Buffy, most of the responses were actually favorable. I am in my forties (no children) and have had both pleasant and not so pleasant experiences on my cruises with small children on them. But, I've also had adults I've come in contact with that were not always pleasant! I think the key is to find the right ship for the maximum activities and fun for your little one. I don't know if Century is that ship. It was rather subdued with a slightly older crowd when I sailed on her. If you can't stomach Disney (not everyone can) Royal Caribbean has a pretty good children's program and might have more children on board for your child to play with. Just a thought. Have a wonderful family vacation.
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Old June 30th, 2001, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

<Au pair?!! Good grief what kind of advice is that? I cannot believe the elitist <attitude of some here. I just came for advice on taking my two year old son on a <cruise not to be insulted.

<Buffy

Buffy,
I've reread the thread on this topic, and must say I didn't see where you've been insulted. By posting on the message board, you were asking people's opinions. People responded with "their opinions", not to make any personal comment about you or your child.
To have an opinion that differs from yours doesn't necessarily make anyone an elitist, it makes them someone who has an opinion. And, again, that is what you asked for.
It's not personal. It's a discussion about what, as Pamda said, is traditionally a "hot button" topic.

Some of the reactions you've seen may be from people who have experienced parents who take their "angels" along and then abdicate any responsibility to their fellow passengers if the angels become less than angelic.

Regards,
Kuki
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Old July 1st, 2001, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Buffy,
Perhaps it's all in the choice of cruise line, length of cruise, and destination. You'll probably have an enjoyable time on Carnival or Disney cruises. Disney especially would have a more child-friendly environment. A three or four night excursion may be a better fit. Speaking for MYSELF only, I don't hate kids, but the majority of the activities on many ships are geared to adults. Some have good teen programs, but that's spotty.
I think the reason you feel some of the postings are anti-children is that many long-time cruisers are significantly older, especially on cruises longer than 7 nights. It's hardly their (and I must admit my) idea of an elegant evening to have a child fidgiting and running in the dining room (I'm sure your child would have the proper upbringing not to do this, but believe it or not, some parents neglect to instruct their children on proper social behavior.)
Don't give up on cruising... just choose one appropriate for your needs. Relax, have fun and enjoy. And when Jr. is old enough to take you on the EQ2, you'll be thankful you did.

Paul
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Old July 1st, 2001, 06:53 AM
Beth Jones
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Most of us go on cruises to relax. I think it often is not the children who are the
problem, but many parents seem to feel they do not have to supervise their children onboard.
I worked onboard cruise ship for several years. I can't tell you that many parents "blow off" the cruise staff who ask the parents to control their children.
Is it really fare to all the fare paying adults is the only 2 jacuzzi's on deck are filled with the same children all day, every day? With the amount of "pee" that ends up in there, adults can't even enjoy it in the early evening, after the daytime "pee-party".
What about the children who have climbed on stage & disrupted the show?
Where are the parents? The casino manager asks gambling parents to keep their children out of the casino, only to have them allow their toddler to repeatly come racing thru, or often parents will be found sneaking slot machine money to their
kids, after being repeatedly told that underage people can not gamble.
There are many more instances I have seen, even parents threatening cruise sta, who are trying to "ruin" their child's vacation.
Just as in our land based society, responsibility & consideration are key
to success. I have no problem excusing children for acting like children. I
think it's great. But the parents need to act like responsible parents, even on
vacation.
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Old July 1st, 2001, 11:24 AM
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Default ITS YOUR MONEY, DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH IT!

Celebrity is a modern cruiseline and is happy to welcome your children. I wouldn't worry about everyone else. As you long as your kids are going to behave (not be perfect angels, but not run around screaming) there shoudl be no problems. besides, Celebrity wants your money and that is why they have good facilities and activities for kids. Its your vacation too, so don't let everyone else ruin it! you paid with your own hard earned money so don't let ANYONE else tell you what to do with it!
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Old July 1st, 2001, 11:52 AM
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Default no on RCI

Buffy:

Here are some thoughts from the child's perspective:

there are very few places where parents can spend a few minutes allowing a child "free" roaming time-- it is just too dangerous. Hallways are narrow -- lobbys have stairs-- open decks are scary. Dining takes over 1 hour, and many kids (even my 11 year old) have trouble sitting down that long. Your alternative: buffet dining -- He will be too young for the shows, you will be stuck in your cabin when he naps, Even your cabin will not have any space for him to play and run. From my experience (5 kids) 2 and 3 year olds dont want to be held or strapped in a stroller all day ----- and they especially don't want to be told no, and they don't want to sit or stand still!

In other words you will spend your entire vacation chasing him in the halls, pushing him in the stroller (for safety) or in your room early at night and at nap times.

AND I am talking about a well behaved 2 year old: Poorly behaved kids would add the problem of temper tantrums-- throwing food-- etc.

So, with those in mind, how can you think he will have a good time on a cruise? or will you?

I have seen too m any unhappy looking young people with under 3 years of age kids on cruise to give any advice of "sure take him, you'll both have a great time"
My advice-- take the cruise when he is older. Not for my sake ( I can ignore any problems kids cause) but for his!

Barb
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Old July 1st, 2001, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Hi, Buffy ...

If you change "au pair" to "babysitter" is it less elitist?

I don't hate children. I have four of them. I look forward to being a grandmother if my grown children would just cooperate.

I know from experience that two year olds are a lot of work. Personally, if I were to go on a cruise, I probably wouldn't take such a small child along. I certainly wouldn't without "help" in the form of a kids' program and/or a babysitter. That's my opinion and it's what you asked for (the opinion, not necessarily the answer).

It seemed to me that the answers you received were thoughtful and considerate not only of your child but of you and your husband as parents.

As someone pointed out, it's tough to expect even the most placid and best-behaved 2YO to sit through a two-hour dinner. It's tough for me to picture myself being in the best or most patient of moods after several days of non-stop parenting which requires constant vigilance (ships aren't baby-proof) plus being cramped in a small cabin.

I can't quite see where the relaxation factor that most cruisers plan on comes into the picture at all.

One other thing to consider ... small children can get sick and get sick fast. Ships' doctors are NOT pediatricians and the next port might well not have the US-type medical care you're accustomed to if you were to need it. That's not to scare you, it's just a fact to put into your decision equation. I don't know if ships' sick bays have pediatric-dosage meds.

If you were to wait until your son is eligible to participate in kids' programs, is totally verbal and toilet-trained, you'd probably have a better time. That's not to say you will have a BAD time.

If I gave offense in my earlier reply, please accept my sincere apology. But I was answering as a mom of four and a somewhat experienced cruiser about what I thought would be the best for you, your husband, and your son.

pamda -- CM First Time Cruisers Hostess
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2001, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

I love kids and I wouldn't put them through a cruise experience at the age of two for their sake. Rent a beach cottage for a week and let your two year old play in the sand. That was our family vacation until both of my children reached the "age of reason" and could enjoy more adult entertainment. If you do decide to cruise with your toddler please let us know how it turns out.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2001, 06:59 PM
Carole Dunham
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Hi Buffy,

I usually have no problems with kids. Sometimes there is an exception but that's life. I cruised with my daughter as well but I didn't start until she was 13. there were no kid's programs in those days, she's 37 now, so I waited until she was older then took her on an Alaska cruise because she loved the outsoors. We're South Floridians so the contrast was wonderful. We're going back for the 8th time next summer. On our last cruise there was a couple onboard with an 18 month old and a 3 year old. the three year old was a typical toddler, always wanting to get into everything he wasn't supposed to get into. His parents actually kept him in a harness and leash to keep him safe, which he hated. The 18 month old was a little angel. the parents looked more and more tired as the cruise progressed. We never saw them at night anywhere except dinner. Remember you will be in a room much smaller than you're used to living in with a young child. I'm sure that your little one is wonderful, but this will be an unusual situation for her and she will be too young to comprehend what's happening. You need to ask yourself if the pros outweigh the cons. Maybe they will and maybe they won't. It's definitely up to you. If you do decide to sail Celebrity, as soon as you get onboard, go to the Purser's desk and ask about baby sitting. Some of the off duty stewardesses and wine stewards (female) and such like to make a little extra money baby sitting. I know people who've done this and were very pleased. You need to do it right away though because there aren't that many available.

Carole
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Old July 1st, 2001, 07:20 PM
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Default just trying to help

Buffy,
I don't hate children..I have 4 myself. My oldest is 17 and yougest 5. We are planning our first cruise for next summer to Alaska to celebrate the oldest graduating from high school. My point being .. I even considered that age 5 (almost 6 by then) might be too young for him to enjoy himself. I must admit, I am also concerned for his safety-like falling overboard. I CAN'T imagine taking him at 2 years old...he was such an explorer and climber! He is much more cautious now and he will go with us..but I have lots of help from my older children. He is well behaved and I'm sure yours is too- but I think a vacation at a nice resort might be less stressful for you. We live in the South and have always enjoyed Hilton Head Island- Sea Pines Plantation- It's a great family place with lots of children's programs. You can still have the sun and fun... while giving the two year old lots of space to explore. Just an alternative...and a little advice from someone who has been there!
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Old July 1st, 2001, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: just trying to help

I'll insult you, Buffy I think you started this topic to stir some of us folks up. Nice try I say let the kid stay home and let people enjoy themselves or go to Disney for a cruise. How about that!
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Old July 1st, 2001, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

I apologize if I sounded tough. I've clearly touched on a subject that I had no idea would get so many upset. I appreciate some advice. Though it's clear that this website and board doesn't offer much sound advice when it comes to cruising with children. I posted the same note on two other cruise areas and I'll say this I received a warm welcome and much better advice. Though one person I emailed on this board was outstanding in their advice. I've booked a cruise on Princess with my entire family. From now on I won't come to cruise mates for advice there isn't much here.
buffy
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Old July 1st, 2001, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Buffy,

Dont let yourself be chased off by other opinions about yourself or your children. Yes, this is a "hot topic" (witness the outcrys in re: Renaissance Cruises reversing their policy of not allowing children) but one thing to bear in mind, you dont have to accept the advice of those who dont care for children.

Personally, I've run into a lot more well behaved children than ill behaved. In fact, on my last Galaxy cruise, my stateroom was located right across thge hall from the childrens room and I thought "oh no".

I couldnt have been more wrong, the children were very well behaved and I never knew they were there except when I wandered out on deck to admire them all having so much fun in the kiddie pool and encountered them marching (silently) down the hallway in an arrow straight line!

The parents I talked to loved Celebrity's childrens program and the kids seemed to as well!

As for infants and toddlers, every one that I;ve seen (along with their parents) seem to have a great time and the staff seem to bend over backwards.

Princess is a great choice and is one of my top picks for families, so go and have a ball!

Tim Rubacky
Consumer Affairs Editor
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Just for the record what is the price of the fare for a 2 year old?
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Yo, Buffy, No one else has said it, so I will. You need to lighten up, really.


Over the year that I've been reading this board, I've found it very informative (and entertaining) on many cruise subjects.

Buff, take a deep breath and let all the hostility out. Really, you'll feel better.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old July 2nd, 2001, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Buffy: not to beat a dead horse. you don't have to come onto this board if you don't want to hear the truth when you ask for advice and opinions from others. no, please leave the baby with your in-laws, or take a vacation where we won't have to put up with crying, running, out of control children whose parents need to be running after them all day. It is exhausting for us to watch, let alone be subjected to this type of parenting. We are trying to enjoy our vacation, and have paid for the right to have some peace and quiet. I don't hate children, I hate the interference they provide when they are tired, hungry or just plain bad. Barb
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

buffy;

do not assume that people hate children because their response to your question is not what you want to hear.

i love kids and have one of my own. i have been on many cruises that had children by the dozens on them.

all i can say is look at the responses and think what people are trying to tell you
you will be on a very small floating island for 7 days or longer, this island will be very populated with all types of people and many activities.

no matter how well behaved your child is, the question is are you taking this trip for the 2 year old who will not understand a thing that is going on or remmember any of the places he has been, or are you taking this trip for your self a vacation on a floating resort.

if you are enjoy a nice relaxing dinner in the company of other adults from other places, and your child starts "acting up" and don't tell me they don';t are you ready to leave possibly in the middle of diner so as not to make the other diners uncomfortable or are you one of those rude parents who think well this is a child and they are adults and just have to realize this and if it bothers them they are free to leave.

also are you willing to possibly miss some of the shows or other late night activities because you must wacth over your 2 year old or do you think it is perfectly good for a child to sleep in his stoller late at night on a crowded deck with people dancing and making noise disturbing his rest.

if you want the child to have a good time go on a disney cruise or to disneylandor world where vactions are made for children of all ages.

if you want a romantic and restful vacation leave the kid home where he will be in his own surroundings, and probably much happier.
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

buffy;

do not assume that people hate children because their response to your question is not what you want to hear.

i love kids and have one of my own. i have been on many cruises that had children by the dozens on them.

all i can say is look at the responses and think what people are trying to tell you
you will be on a very small floating island for 7 days or longer, this island will be very populated with all types of people and many activities.

no matter how well behaved your child is, the question is are you taking this trip for the 2 year old who will not understand a thing that is going on or remmember any of the places he has been, or are you taking this trip for your self a vacation on a floating resort.

if you are enjoy a nice relaxing dinner in the company of other adults from other places, and your child starts "acting up" and don't tell me they don';t are you ready to leave possibly in the middle of diner so as not to make the other diners uncomfortable or are you one of those rude parents who think well this is a child and they are adults and just have to realize this and if it bothers them they are free to leave.

also are you willing to possibly miss some of the shows or other late night activities because you must wacth over your 2 year old or do you think it is perfectly good for a child to sleep in his stoller late at night on a crowded deck with people dancing and making noise disturbing his rest.

if you want the child to have a good time go on a disney cruise or to disneylandor world where vactions are made for children of all ages.

if you want a romantic and restful vacation leave the kid home where he will be in his own surroundings, and probably much happier.
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 11:08 AM
bobob
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

buffy;

do not assume that people hate children because their response to your question is not what you want to hear.

i love kids and have one of my own. i have been on many cruises that had children by the dozens on them.

all i can say is look at the responses and think what people are trying to tell you
you will be on a very small floating island for 7 days or longer, this island will be very populated with all types of people and many activities.

no matter how well behaved your child is, the question is are you taking this trip for the 2 year old who will not understand a thing that is going on or remmember any of the places he has been, or are you taking this trip for your self a vacation on a floating resort.

if you are enjoy a nice relaxing dinner in the company of other adults from other places, and your child starts "acting up" and don't tell me they don';t are you ready to leave possibly in the middle of diner so as not to make the other diners uncomfortable or are you one of those rude parents who think well this is a child and they are adults and just have to realize this and if it bothers them they are free to leave.

also are you willing to possibly miss some of the shows or other late night activities because you must wacth over your 2 year old or do you think it is perfectly good for a child to sleep in his stoller late at night on a crowded deck with people dancing and making noise disturbing his rest.

if you want the child to have a good time go on a disney cruise or to disneylandor world where vactions are made for children of all ages.

if you want a romantic and restful vacation leave the kid home where he will be in his own surroundings, and probably much happier.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old July 2nd, 2001, 02:47 PM
Buffy
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Tim I truly appreciate your warm and thoughtful response. Unlike the two other cruise mate contributors [kukoo and panda] you have anwered my note in the most professional matter. I appreciate that. thank you for the encouragement on our upcoming Princess cruise. I am sure we will have a marvelous time.
Buffy
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old July 2nd, 2001, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: no on RCI

My neighbor just returned from the Galaxy and she mentioned that the railings on the outside decks were so wide that a child could crawl right through them.
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Just what I said before people only hear whwat they want to hear!!!
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Buffy...
Just as a reminder.. here's your original post
<<<I am thinking of booking a 7 Night Eastern Caribbean Sailing on the Century. Do you think this ship is okay for a two year old?

Buffy>>
If you had posted that you're booking a cruise with your two year old, and were looking for suggestions on what ship's are toddler friendly, you may have found the responses more to your liking.

People (me included) gave you opinions as well as infomation. The fact they all didn't line up to agree with you seems to have set you off. In complaining about the posters being rude to you, you seem to have lost site of who's the one being rude.

You've made the decision, and booked Princess, and I hope you have a WONDERFUL cruise. Hopefully through all the posts that you didn't like you've gained some foresight about the situations you could encounter, and will be better prepared to deal with them. And in the end, that will make your cruise experience more enjoyable.

Regards,
Kuki
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Old July 2nd, 2001, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

ITs f unny how you pick tim's response and tell him how great it is-- ask TIm how many kids he has and how many times he has cruised with kids.

He based his response on a casual view that he had seen kids playing in the pools ( 2 years olds??) and marching holding hands together ( 2 year o lds?)

He was attempted to placate you -- not give you advice. There a re a few of us with alot of kids, and your orginal post made it seem a s if you were Thinking about taking a cruise- and wondering if this was a good idea. We mostly told you it wasnt on Celebrity or Royal Caribbean-- wait til he is older.
Now you insult those of us who have experience-- and praise TIm who might not have any!!!

BTW is there a Mr. Buffy? Hope he's in this 100% with you-- because if it's not his idea to take little buffy-- your stateroom is going to be a pretty chilly place to be.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old July 2nd, 2001, 10:04 PM
Tim Rubacky
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Barb,

I dont have any children of my own but I do have 14 nieces and nephews which range in age from 18 to 3, so I do have quite a bit of experience cruising with kids.

Everyone has differing opinions on the subject, I simply offered my opinion and observations.

Personally and professionally, I think it's time we all let this thread die.

Tim Rubacky
Consumer Affairs Editor
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old July 3rd, 2001, 05:27 PM
chellie
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

I could not agree more. Everyone has opinions regarding where children should be seen and heard. Parents are often irrational in defending their little darlings and nulliparous peple, or people who have already raised their children feel that they are entitled to peace and quieet during their hard earned vacations. There is no consensus to be achieved, so let us all just agree to disagree on this one.
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Old July 3rd, 2001, 08:00 PM
slavearlen
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Default Re: Why Do You All Hate Children

Buffy, you asked the question and we are simply trying to be honest regarding our answer.

I feel that a cruise is primarily an adult affair except for the Disney and Carnival Cruise Lines which are pretty obvious about welcoming and accommodating families with children. They have the activities to entertain them.

Celebrity Cruise Lines is primarily directed towards adults. For the life of me I don't understand why someone would take their small child anyway. What about the time with your husband? If you have no one to leave him with then I recommend two things; Go on a cruise line that targets your situation and welcomes it or possibilty wait until your child is grown (like ours) and celebrate with your husband - just the two of you. I love my children and my grandson more than I love and need air. I just think that I have worked hard and waited along time to vacation with adults. They have plenty of time in their life to cruise, right now they need to be parents and some of the cruise lines are not appropriate for children - unless you target the cruise lines that are geared in that direction.

Sorry we cant' tell you what you would like to hear.
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