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  #91 (permalink)  
Old January 23rd, 2006, 09:05 PM
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For the record they follow the dress code even more on holland America and I am speaking from experience where Ihave numerous cruises on both lines.Just finished a cruise on Veendam and found most were in formals or dark suits.Saw a few in sport coats with ties however they were certainly in the minority.I believe this may be that they have more repeaters than any other cruise line .
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old January 23rd, 2006, 09:34 PM
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I often wonder at Celebrity's hit and miss enforcement of the dress code. Then I remember what happend at work:
We never really had a dress code for the first 10 years I worked there. (I work for an investment advisory firm). They also really never recorded your in and out time. As a result, most of us gave more than our 40 hours without turning in overtime and most of us dressed conservatively. But after a while people abused the unwritten specifications. So in order to have people follow what was logical, they wrote in a dress code. They also started recording your actual time at work. When someone started using the cell phone for hours on end during working hours to make and receive personal calls, they instituted a new rule - no personal cell phones during working hours. Instead of dealing with individual offenders, they institute a new rule or refine an existing rule.
I wonder if the reason why the codes are enforced on some sailings and not on other is that there is somebody who does not meet the barest minimum (wears ripped jeans, offensive t-shirts for example) and in order to not admit that person, they have to make everyone abide (much like my office does when there is an offender).
Just a possible explanation. The only reason why I do bring up the fact that Celebrity does enforce the dress code on some sailings (a minute number compared to their total sailings) is that I would hate for a first timer to be on that one particular sailing that the dress code would be enforced and because somebody told them "dress however you want - Celebrity won't keep you out" they wouldn't be admitted to the dining room or show.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2006, 09:32 AM
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Default daysatsea....

I think that was an informative post, and I agree.

Telling a first time cruiser anything OTHER that the BASIC recommendations that the cruiselines ask is just wrong advice.

Unfortunately a new cruiser may take this advice, then later find out they cant partake in an occasion or event only based on the previous experience of someone who sneeked threw the cracks and perstistantly tries to get away with things.

I still disagree with Norm on the tie thing....but its a minor issue. I think most of us can agree to disagree with each outher as long as our opinions are not too far out there.

Norm: I wanted to ask you this. And while we BOTH agree on the formal code.....I HAVE seen more and more women wearing pantsuits to formal nights....I don't necessarily consider it formal, However from what I have seen these women also dress up consistantly during the cruise. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the issue. Can and should a woman have the option of wearing a high-end pantsuit to formal evenings?

Just picking your brain....

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  #94 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2006, 12:02 PM
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There are formal pants outfits for women. I have one - it is crepe with fly away pants and a lot of beading. It would really look silly as an informal or casual outfit.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2006, 06:10 PM
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Dave,

Norm: I wanted to ask you this. And while we BOTH agree on the formal code.....I HAVE seen more and more women wearing pantsuits to formal nights....I don't necessarily consider it formal, However from what I have seen these women also dress up consistantly during the cruise. Just wanted to know your thoughts on the issue. Can and should a woman have the option of wearing a high-end pantsuit to formal evenings?

I think that if many ladies ever saw photographs of how they look when wearing pants (which tend to emphasize "bulges" that they should try to diminish...), they wuold never again be seen in public wearing pants!

That said, the sad reality is that formal pantsuits, usually made of brocades or similarly ornate fabricss, are now accepted in many places, and some cruise lines do admit them. In any case, social etiquette dictates that one should either follow the "suggested dress" or "dress guidelines" of the cruise line, which are written to North American standards on the major cruise lines marketed in North America, or substitute equivalent attire of one's own culture. Since Celebrity's guidelines for formal evenings do not include such pant suits, ladies travelling on Celebrity should avoid them.

BTW, the term "equivalent attire of one's own culture" here is somewhat liberal -- but the key word is EQUIVALENT. In Bermuda, for example, it's customary for gentlemen to wear dinner jackets with formal black Bermuda shorts that have the same silk stripe as the formal dress pants worn with dinner jackets in the United States. Likewise, many Scotsmen wear their dinner jackets with kilts and Chinese men frequently wear high-collared silk dinner jackets that button from top to bottom (similar to the jacket of a Marine's "dress blues"), and thus don't require a shirt and tie. These variations are quite proper. Likewise, it's proper for members of military and naval forces to wear their "mess dress" uniforms rather than civilian formal attire on formal evenings.

Norm.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old January 25th, 2006, 11:28 AM
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Rev 22:17,

Do you just make up these rules as you go along or are you kidding?

Am I to believe that by your view of the world, it is perfectly acceptable for a man from Bermuda to wear Bermuda shorts on formal night even though the guidelines specifically state "shorts are prohibited" because it is part of the "Bermuda culture", but it's not okay for a woman from the U.S. to wear a dressy pantsuit just because the guidelines don't specifically list pantsuits among the choices of formalwear, even though by your own admission dressy pantsuits are acceptable female formalwear in the "American culture"? Seems like a double standard to me.

Surely you jest?
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old January 25th, 2006, 05:08 PM
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CAsailor,

Am I to believe that by your view of the world, it is perfectly acceptable for a man from Bermuda to wear Bermuda shorts on formal night even though the guidelines specifically state "shorts are prohibited" because it is part of the "Bermuda culture", but it's not okay for a woman from the U.S. to wear a dressy pantsuit just because the guidelines don't specifically list pantsuits among the choices of formalwear, even though by your own admission dressy pantsuits are acceptable female formalwear in the "American culture"? Seems like a double standard to me.

I am not talking about a normal pair of Bermuda shorts that you might buy in a store here in the States. Rather, think of taking the formal pants (with satin stripes) that you would wear with a tuxedo jacket and shortening the legs to just above the knee. For formal occasions, Bemudans wear such shorts with a formal (pleated or ruffled) shirt with studs and cuff links, bow tie, cummerbund or vest, dinner (tuxedo) jacket, knee-high stockings with garters, and dress shoes. It's a legitimate "black tie" outfit, and therefore acceptable wear at a "black tie" event.

Norm.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old January 25th, 2006, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
I am not talking about a normal pair of Bermuda shorts that you might buy in a store here in the States. Rather, think of taking the formal pants (with satin stripes) that you would wear with a tuxedo jacket and shortening the legs to just above the knee. For formal occasions, Bemudans wear such shorts with a formal (pleated or ruffled) shirt with studs and cuff links, bow tie, cummerbund or vest, dinner (tuxedo) jacket, knee-high stockings with garters, and dress shoes. It's a legitimate "black tie" outfit, and therefore acceptable wear at a "black tie" event.
My point was never regarding whether or not the formal Bermuda shorts would be acceptable. My point is, that if they are acceptable, even though they are not specifically listed as formalwear in Celebrity's policy, and in fact, are specifically listed as prohibited (because they are shorts), than a woman's fancy pantsuit would be just as acceptable because they are commonly worn as formalwear here in the U.S. (and probably in other places too). As "daysatsea" pointed out, some of these fancy pantsuits would look absolutely silly being worn anywhere but a formal event.

I am considering my first Celebrity cruise after many on Princess and Carnival. I am not much for dressing up, but if I cruise Celebrity I will do my best to comply with the dress code. However I have not worn a dress or skirt since I've been about 7 years old and I don't intend to start just for a vacation. Surely, Celebrity didn't intend for their dress guidelines to be that inflexible, but rather just that, guidelines to set the tone for the evening.

I would like to think that Celebrity's dress code is flexible enough to allow a man dressed as you described because he is complying with the spirit of the evening, if not the letter of the written guidelines, by dressing in a way that is considered formal in his culture. But by the same token, I would expect them to be flexible enough to allow a woman dressed in a formal pantsuit because she is also complying with the spirit of the evening.

From what I have read on these boards, I don't think Celebrity would have a problem with my intended dress. However, I would hate to think that other passengers are so inflexible as to be judging me in my formal pantsuit, which would be perfectly acceptable for any other formal occasion that I can think of, just because it is not specifically listed in the guidelines.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
But by the same token, I would expect them to be flexible enough to allow a woman dressed in a formal pantsuit because she is also complying with the spirit of the evening.

From what I have read on these boards, I don't think Celebrity would have a problem with my intended dress. However, I would hate to think that other passengers are so inflexible as to be judging me in my formal pantsuit, which would be perfectly acceptable for any other formal occasion that I can think of, just because it is not specifically listed in the guidelines
You won't have to worry one bit!!! Mrs. Kuki has a tuxedo like suit, with large bellow pants that she bought over 6 years ago. It looks fantastic on her, and was so well made it still looks like new.

She's worn on it many times for formal nights, and never fails to draw raving comments on it; most recently from the Captain of the Celebrity Century this past June.

I've sailed on quite a number of Celebrity cruises, and frankly I think Norm's vision of what people wear on Celebrity has more to do with the way he wants to see it than in what it is.

Celebrity clientele dresses much like those on the other mass market lines; some dressed to the nines, some not.

I'm a "traditional" type who thinks people should dress nicely for formal nights, but certainly one any cruises I've been on in the past several years (Celebrity or others) I haven't seen anyone turned away from the dining rooms, nor have I seen any passengers gawking at those who are underdressed on formal nights.

In fact, we just came back last weekend from the Island Princess in Hawaii.. this trip I actually saw more men in sports jackets on casual nights than I have for a very long time on a ship. But, that's not to say there weren't plenty dressed much more casually.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2006, 10:49 AM
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I think Norm was referring to the cultural differences, rather than the fashion ones...IMHO

First off, most ships are NOT american, US, domestic...etc. They are registered and based in a foreign country. Lets say British, The Brits have a way of upholding traditions, and know how and when it is appropriate to skew from the 'Upheld' to the acceptable.

Although it does say shorts aren't permitted, this is more or less to make a point to us lazy americans about the ambiance the line wants to maintain. The difference is shorts to us are 25.00 vacation wear, in Bermuda, dress or tux shorts are 125.00 to 150.00 wool with a satin strip down the sides. and they have a matching jacket to go with them.

I actually went to SMITHS in Bermuda and bought and wore a pair of these shorts on a cruise years ago. It was a lot of fun, keeping in tradition with the culture, and really not in defiance of the dress code. I however have never worn them other than in Bermuda. I wear what we in this country have come to know as a traditional tuxedo or a dinner jacket .

I however see nothing wrong with wearing an upscale pantsuit. It however is considered casual or informal at most by cruise dress codes.
Only because we as americans tend to be a more casual culture than the rest of the world.

Dave

by the way, IMHO...I don't think a grass skirt would be appropriate formal wear on a Hawaiian cruise
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2006, 11:06 AM
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Y'know what? I am done watching this thread....there are more important things going on in my life and the world than beating the death the subject of people having heart attacks over what I am wearing on vacation...

Enjoy your discussion...
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2006, 08:41 PM
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CAsailor,

My point was never regarding whether or not the formal Bermuda shorts would be acceptable. My point is, that if they are acceptable, even though they are not specifically listed as formalwear in Celebrity's policy, and in fact, are specifically listed as prohibited (because they are shorts), than a woman's fancy pantsuit would be just as acceptable because they are commonly worn as formalwear here in the U.S. (and probably in other places too). As "daysatsea" pointed out, some of these fancy pantsuits would look absolutely silly being worn anywhere but a formal event.

My point is that cruise lines that marktet their products predominantly in North America generally write their dress codes to North American standards. The intent of these standards is not to exclude equivalent attire of other cultures, but rather to provide clear guidance as to what is and what is not appropriate. If one were to write a policy that addressed every possible cultural variation throughout the world, it would be long enough so most people would not bother to read it.

I would like to think that Celebrity's dress code is flexible enough to allow a man dressed as you described because he is complying with the spirit of the evening, if not the letter of the written guidelines, by dressing in a way that is considered formal in his culture. But by the same token, I would expect them to be flexible enough to allow a woman dressed in a formal pantsuit because she is also complying with the spirit of the evening.

In my experience on Celebrity (six cruises in the last two and a half years), nearly all of the ladies wore either a long dress or a cocktail dress on the formal eveings and dresses of one kind or another on the informal evenings. I noticed a lot more ladies wearing formal pant suits on Princess's ships than on Celebirty's. I doubt that Celebrity would turn away a lady wearing a formal pantsuit, but the facts that (1) formal pantsuits are predominantly a North American innovation and (2) the line's published dress code, written for a predominantly North American customers, does not say that formal pantsuits are appropriate really do recommend against that style.

But do as you wish.

Norm.
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Old January 26th, 2006, 08:47 PM
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Dave,

think Norm was referring to the cultural differences, rather than the fashion ones...IMHO

That's absolutely right!

First off, most ships are NOT american, US, domestic...etc. They are registered and based in a foreign country. Lets say British, The Brits have a way of upholding traditions, and know how and when it is appropriate to skew from the 'Upheld' to the acceptable.

That's true, but cruise lines -- like all good businesses -- tailor their product to their predominant market. Part of that tailoring is to write standards and "guidelines" to the custom and culture of the predominant market. Thus, one should construe Celebrity's guidelines to be written for the North American market, with accommodation of cultural equivalence for others.

I actually went to SMITHS in Bermuda and bought and wore a pair of these shorts on a cruise years ago.

I have thought that it would be great fun to get the Bermudan formal shorts to wear with my white dinner jacket in the tropics. Alas, I have not yet made it to Bermuda....

Norm.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old January 28th, 2006, 05:43 PM
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I'm surprised Kuki, the expert, didn't know that Celebrity expects guests to wear the required dining room dress code on all the public areas of the ship. This ridiculous "rule" has been debated almost constantly on this and the other board for as long as I've been monitoring them. So it doesn't matter if you don't dress up for the dining room, you are still expected to dress up for the theatre, etc. We do dress up on formal nights, but haven't challenged the rule yet and changed to something less formal for later, like we do on RCI. Last Feb. on Galaxy we sat next to people in the theater on formal night who were dressed in jeans/shorts and flip flops--so much for the fashion police.

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  #105 (permalink)  
Old January 28th, 2006, 06:22 PM
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I realize your dilemma...but did you say anything? to the staff at the door? on your comment card?

ITs true, many do not adhere to the 'suggested ' codes, but ARE expected.
Its easy for someone to try and slip in. Its your duty as a cruiser to INFORM the staff of any violations there may be. They are watching 2000 people and its VERY possible someone can slip in.

It doesn't seem really important but it is. Your help. your comments WILL alert the line to any adjustments they have to make. If you don't do your unsworn duty...I may show up at formal night wearing a black thong and bow tie. Do you really want to sit and eat looking at the hair on my chest, neck, and back? I truly wouldn't do it, but this pushing the dress codes topic IS readying for the battle.

Cheers!

Dave
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old January 30th, 2006, 01:06 PM
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I just returned from the Zenith. Since this is such a hot topic I will put in my 2 cents. The dress cold was adhered to 98%, the first night there were several people in jeans, no one was turned away. Did it spoil my night absolutely not. On formal and informal nights, there were plenty of people probably more than half that wore nice pants and sport shirt. They looked fine, were they turned away no. Did it ruin my evening Not in the Least. I just for the life of me cannot understand why everyone wastes so much time and energy watching what everyone else is wearing. I guess so there is something to complain about, for myself, I am on vacation and what others wear is of no consequence to me. Everyone must be exhausted by the time the cruise ends, keeping track of others and complaining their cruise experience was ruined.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old January 30th, 2006, 06:15 PM
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You may get away with dress code violation on short cruise but i do not think this would hold for longer cruises By the way am not concerned with what you wear as you are the best judge on what is proper and in good taste.
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Old January 30th, 2006, 07:06 PM
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I personally do not get away with anything. I dress according to the dress code. Do I wear beaded gowns absolutely not, but I am dressed and should live up to everyones standards. I just think that everyone makes way to much of this subject.
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Old January 31st, 2006, 04:57 PM
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Its really not about how everyone looks, Its about how they handle the rules of the road. If the signs says STOP, do you stop all the way? do you come to a 'rolling' stop? do you just disregard the sign because its clear no one else is coming?

Regardless of what the rule might be it is simply rude and discourteous for some to come to a 'rolling' stop, and even worse to simply blow through because there's no one watching.

We ARE on vacation, but we are NOT AT HOME. We are SHARING this ship with thousands of others, most whom we do not know.....But does knowing you'll never see someone again validate your reason for disrespecting them and the cruiselines guidlines? The Captain IS in charge of the ship, and WE have to obey him out of respect as the crew does. So if the daily says FORMAL, it means FORMAL....there is no but.......

There are many vacation options that people can take, including all inclusive resorts which are about the same price as a ship. Why drive the wrong way down the road on your vacation, when you can just park at a nice little rest stop and visit for a while.

Dave
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Old January 31st, 2006, 06:07 PM
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Dave,Icould not agree with you more.Maybe slotaddict would rather be in Vegas where there are no written rules on dress code.Keep on responding and I would like to see a pole on whether most cruisers would like to maintain the formal nites or go to a total casual to include jeans and shorts in the dining room.We did this on another board and fomal won easily.
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Old January 31st, 2006, 07:24 PM
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Default Hi Big Apple....

This topic IS my pet peeve...

Unfortunately,I must learn how to be more diplomatic in my posts.

I always lived by the once, twice, third time you get a slap in the head : way of life, but I'm becoming out numbered. Not only on this board but on Cruise Critic and in the US in general.

Today Mrs. King passed, Judge ALITO was verified, and I was banned from Cruise Critic . Civil rights, the seperation of church and state, and the freedom of speech....all came crashing down on my head today. I was banned for two weeks from CC for using the "F" word, which is wrong and I know better, but it was from a (Rep.) Veteran that insists that they be allowed to wear what ever they want in the diningroom, because they fought for this country and they've earned the right...and apparently when 'we' do the same so can we. I really took offense and went off the deep end, and now I regret it...because I am BANNED.

I TRULY wish I had Norms demeaner...I can lean a lot from him, as can we all.

I still have my ambitions, but the front line isn't a good place to be at this time for me, sorry.

Dave

(previously from the upper east side)
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2006, 01:44 PM
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Dave,

I TRULY wish I had Norms demeaner...I can lean a lot from him, as can we all.

Thanks for your kind words, but I'm not exactly a stellar example of tact and diplomacy....

Norm.
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Old February 1st, 2006, 02:55 PM
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Default Norm...

Sometimes it not how we see ourselves thats important, many times its how others do.

Dave
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2006, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big apple
Dave,Icould not agree with you more.Maybe slotaddict would rather be in Vegas where there are no written rules on dress code.Keep on responding and I would like to see a pole on whether most cruisers would like to maintain the formal nites or go to a total casual to include jeans and shorts in the dining room.We did this on another board and fomal won easily.
Did you read my answer, I said I dressed appropriately, I said that those who do not dress to your expectations do not ruin my cruise experience. You are from what I can a self rightous pompous ass. I hope I never had the displeasure of being on the same ship as you. I have been in Vegas many times and guess what people dress up there. Since there are no offenders on HAL why don;t you make that your cruiseline of choice. Unless someone at my table is falling down drunk and drooling, I am not going to complain to anyone. LIFE IS TOO SHORT.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old February 1st, 2006, 10:01 PM
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What does falling down drunk have to do with the dress code and I am also happy not to have the pleasure of your attendance on any of the nice cruises we have taken thru the years?
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big apple
What does falling down drunk have to do with the dress code and I am also happy not to have the pleasure of your attendance on any of the nice cruises we have taken thru the years?
I said I will make no complaints. You act as if I am the one not following the dress code. I will not buy into your act any longer, this thread has gone on much to long. Again, I follow the dress code, I don;t give a rats
a-- how anyone else dresses.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 10:25 AM
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Default slotaddict

"I have been in Vegas many times and guess what people dress up there. "

Depends where you go. You have a choice of casinos.Many are more casual than others.

My parents live there so I go ALL THE TIME, not just many times.

If you want to compare the Bellagio with the gold strike there is a BIG difference. However the MGM tends to be more like New York, New York.

You will find a different clientelle in each casino depending on the price of the rooms, and the packages offered.

To make this a little more clearer to you, the less expensive the cruise, the more folks that will not adhere to the dress or conduct codes. Thats the bottom line.

Thats reality.

Thats the purpose of this board.

To ACCURATELY give people the correct information so they can make the correct choices. NOT to encourage bad behavior, which IS what you are doing.

Dave
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 12:04 PM
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Dave,You are absolutely correct in the length of the cruise will have a direct effect on how people treat the dress code and also the price of that cruise.Almost all of the cruises 10 days or longer will have almost 100%compliance with the suggested written dress code.
We do not need to get into why this is a fact however I apprciate your support in this my pet peeve.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: slotaddict

Quote:
Originally Posted by bububr
"I have been in Vegas many times and guess what people dress up there. "

Depends where you go. You have a choice of casinos.Many are more casual than others.

My parents live there so I go ALL THE TIME, not just many times.

If you want to compare the Bellagio with the gold strike there is a BIG difference. However the MGM tends to be more like New York, New York.

You will find a different clientelle in each casino depending on the price of the rooms, and the packages offered.

To make this a little more clearer to you, the less expensive the cruise, the more folks that will not adhere to the dress or conduct codes. Thats the bottom line.

Thats reality.

Thats the purpose of this board.

To ACCURATELY give people the correct information so they can make the correct choices. NOT to encourage bad behavior, which IS what you are doing.

Dave
Why is it that you feel that you have to explain things, you are patronizing me and others. I am not stupid, I don't need your explanations. Apparantly the big problem here, is most people do not read the entire thread before responding. You don;t have to tell me about Las Vegas and the difference in casinos, any idiot will know there is a difference between the Bellagio and the Plaza. My hotel of choice is the Rio, price is no issue, I get comped. People also dress up at the Rio. So spare me the lectures, as I said life is too short for this type of nonsense.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2006, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: slotaddict

Quote:
Originally Posted by bububr
Thats the purpose of this board.

To ACCURATELY give people the correct information so they can make the correct choices. NOT to encourage bad behavior, which IS what you are doing.

Dave
As someone who has been on many cruises, but has yet to take my first Celebrity cruise, I appreciate reading ALL points of view on this issue. Often what is printed in the policies are different from what is adhered to aboard ship. I would think that no matter which side of this issue you are on, you would want to know those differences so that you can make an informed decision.
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