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  #31 (permalink)  
Old April 9th, 2008, 11:25 PM
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We enjoy staying in our formal wear for the evening....it took long enough to get ready! However, I will kick off my heels in favor of something more comfortable and hubby will ditch his tie. The only time I have received glares from the fashion police, was walking down the 9 flights to our room following a workout in the gym. As we were on second dinner, there were often glitzy folk walking about on their way to first dinner. I make no apologies for trying to keep fit on the ship...even on formal nights. We do make an effort to return to our rooms before 6 pm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old April 9th, 2008, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kd
We enjoy staying in our formal wear for the evening....it took long enough to get ready! However, I will kick off my heels in favor of something more comfortable and hubby will ditch his tie. The only time I have received glares from the fashion police, was walking down the 9 flights to our room following a workout in the gym. As we were on second dinner, there were often glitzy folk walking about on their way to first dinner. I make no apologies for trying to keep fit on the ship...even on formal nights. We do make an effort to return to our rooms before 6 pm.
How awful that someone would be narrow-minded enough to glare at you! We dress for second seating and there is no way that I would curtail any of my activities beforehand. There is no logical reason for the second seating pax to hide while the earlybirds are about. That's just the way it is. Before they enter the dining room, they walk about dressed for the evening, while at the same time, we walk about, still in our daytime clothes. If someone cannot live with that, I feel sorry for them!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old April 10th, 2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum
Norm,I am in complete agreement with your comments and I wonder how many of these cruisers would dress for a wedding after 6;00 pm. Have you looked at the most recent dress code on Carnival?THis will drive you up the wall as it did me and one can only hope that other lines do not follow.We are leaving on 49 day cruise on new Carnival Splendor arround SA and looking at the number of cruises taken by most it will be interesting to see how they look at this new dress code.
Many of us agree with Norm and his sentiments but the problem has not been created by the posters, Norm or myself but by Celebrity. They issue dress rules which according to their dailies are required and then don't enforce them. Either enforce your own rules or get rid of them. I and many will adjust either way

Don
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old April 10th, 2008, 11:24 AM
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I think part of the problem is that Celebrity is running a business and the passengers are the customers and they are afraid of offending paying customers. This leads to the uneven enforcement of their own rules.
Bob
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old April 10th, 2008, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
Judy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Quite a few women don't wear dresses anymore and I am one of them,. There is nothing wrong with women in slacks as formal wear.
Sorry, but I don't think you will find a manual of social etiquette anywhere that lists "slacks" as proper "formal" attire for either gents or ladies. Some cruise lines (Princess, for example) state explicitly that a formal pant suit is acceptable, but that type of outfit has a jacket that matches the pants.

If you can identify an authoritative manual of social etiquette that lists slacks as acceptable formalwear, I'll concede. By "authoritative," I mean a manual written by somebody who is acknowledged to be an expert in the field.

Norm.

Norm, perhaps the problem is with the term "slacks". There are many formal ensembles that have a 'pants' bottom instead of a skirt. The difference is in the fabric and cut. It sometimes seems you would prefer to join the 'classed' (see "?dangerous trend" post) ships. I desperately do not want to be on a ship that goes all casual or allows jeans in the dining room, but neither do I want some poor woman in tears on board, or cancelling their cruise altogether due to someone's strict interpretation of etiquette. These are mass market cruise ships, not the QE II. Granted, Celebrity, which we prefer, is a notch above some others, but still accessible to us 'commoners'. On our very first (last minute)cruise I was not prepared. If I had known about boards such as this and learned more about cruise wardrobe, I might have felt more confident on board. However, I wouldn't trade the excitement and wonder of that maiden voyage for anything....even a glitzy gown and tux.
On our last Celebrity cruise, people were indeed turned away from the dining room on formal night (no jacket) but they certainly allowed a lot of outfits that you would not deem formalwear.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old April 12th, 2008, 03:39 PM
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Irish Girl,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Norm, it's just a cruise dinner, not a black tie affair.
Rather, the "formal" nights on a Celebrity cruise most certainly are "black tie" affairs! Okay, "modified black tie" affairs to be precise since a dark -- and I do mean dark -- business suit is acceptable as an alternative to a true "black tie" outfit. Nonetheless, proper attire is expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Personally, I think Celebrity needs to update their recommended dress code and get into the 21st century.
Here, I disagree completely. People have many different styles, and some people really do enjoy the ambiance of a true "formal" evening. There is no reason whatsoever why one cruise line, Celebrity, should not cater to that segment of the population by maintaining and enforcing traditional dress codes while other lines offer more casual styles that appeal to other segments of the population. Nonetheless, I do think that all cruise lines need to enforce whatever dress codes they prescribe so that their products will be as advertised.

Norm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old April 12th, 2008, 05:06 PM
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I found on another site someone posted the Daily with the "required dress code for the evening" on formal night. It states Ladies should wear a "dressy outfit". To me a dressy outfit is black slacks and a sparkly top.
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Celebration 2/96
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old April 12th, 2008, 10:38 PM
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With close to 1000 male pax on a given cruise, there is no way that they all will don tux or very dark suit. That is too much to expect. Would you really object if your tablemate wore a suit that wasn't very dark? Or if he wore a blazer and tie? I have made black tie family celebrations that were much more "gala" than a celebrity dinner and I didn't pay too much attention to the few who didn't dress properly. It was more important to me that they were having a great time.

I agree with Irish girl. Dressy slacks and top are fine. They suit a certain figure better than a gown that bares too much. Short cocktail dresses are also fine. The younger girls are wearing more short than long these days.

Rev, I don't know where you get all your info, but it reminds me of the fashion dictators of 50+ years ago. Who was it that wrote the famous etiquette book? Today (even though I know you are not comfortable with it) everything is much looser. I am not condoning someone dressed like a slob, but rigidity is out.

Final word, I would rather see a man or woman dressed elegantly for their age and shape, than see some poor soul looking out of place trying to follow to the letter of "formal". Formal does not necessarity = good taste.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old April 16th, 2008, 05:47 PM
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matey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
With close to 1000 male pax on a given cruise, there is no way that they all will don tux or very dark suit. That is too much to expect. Would you really object if your tablemate wore a suit that wasn't very dark? Or if he wore a blazer and tie?
Yes, I really would find that objectionable. Quite simply, it does NOT comply with the prescribed drss code for Celebrity's "Formal" evenings.

Now admittedly I would find a tablemate who came to dinner in grungy clothes (denim, etc.) even more objectionable, but the bottom line here is that social etiquette requires nothing less than that we all conform to the dress code as prescribed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I have made black tie family celebrations that were much more "gala" than a celebrity dinner and I didn't pay too much attention to the few who didn't dress properly. It was more important to me that they were having a great time.
An event being more "gala" is not the relevant criteria. The relevant criteria set by the norms of social etiquette is the dress prescribed by the host(ess). Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else. Get it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I agree with Irish girl. Dressy slacks and top are fine. They suit a certain figure better than a gown that bares too much. Short cocktail dresses are also fine. The younger girls are wearing more short than long these days.
No, dressy slacks and a top are NOT "fine" for a "formal" evening on Celebrity because they are not within the dress code prescribed by the cruise line. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Rev, I don't know where you get all your info, but it reminds me of the fashion dictators of 50+ years ago. Who was it that wrote the famous etiquette book? Today (even though I know you are not comfortable with it) everything is much looser. I am not condoning someone dressed like a slob, but rigidity is out.
What you call "my" information is straight out of contemporary manuals of social etiquette. You can read the relevant sections in them at any public library or buy your own copy at any bookstore.

It's true that styles have become more casual, but that does not really mean "looser." The "more casual" means that many events now have less formal dress codes, and not that it's socially acceptable to do whatever you want. Rather, it's just as gauche to wear a tuxedo to dinner on a "casual" evening as to wear a shirt with an open collar and slacks to dinner on a "formal" evening -- and it's still just as gauche as it ever was to do either. Within the cruise industry, this trend is manifest in the fact that several cruise lines have changed the evenings that were "semiformal" or "informal" evenings a decade ago to "casual" evenings and some cruise lines now advertise "all casual" cruises -- an innovation that I fully support because it allows each of us to choose the style that we prefer. You won't find me wearing a tuxedo to dinner on an Azamara cruise!

Having said that, I should also note that the societal trend toward more casual has created a significant demand for the continuation of "formal" evenings, and even for the continuation of "informal" evenings, on some of the more "upscale" cruise lines like Celebrity. Many people do enjoy the ambiance of these events, which the more casual nature of modern society provides very few opportunities to experience. This countertrend is also manifest in the fact that many charities now have very formal evenings, which typically include elegant dinners, as fundraisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Final word, I would rather see a man or woman dressed elegantly for their age and shape, than see some poor soul looking out of place trying to follow to the letter of "formal".
I'll cut some slack to people who cannot wear certain items due to injury or due to chronic health conditions, if they make a reasonable effort to comply as far as they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Formal does not necessarity = good taste.
That's true, but failure to comply with the prescribed dress code definitely = bad taste (or worse).

If you don't want to comply with Celebrity's dress code, that's okay. The right thing to do is to book on a line with a different dress code to which you ARE willing to conform. Here, I lament the demise of Windjammer Barefoot Cruises because that line really did offer a great alternative for those who want an ultra-casual cruise. Nonetheless, there are several alternatives available.

>> Azamara Cruises offers an "all casual" cruise product for adults only.

>> Disney Cruises offers an "all casual" cruise product that's very child-friendly, but also a wonderful and innovative experience for adults.

>> Norwegian Cruise Line advertises "formal optional" evenings, which do not require proper "formal" dress, as part of its "Freestyle Cruising" program.

>> Carnival Cruises and Royal Caribbean International have less stringent "modified formal" dress standards for their "formal" evenings.

If those who don't want to dress for "formal" evenings book on these lines instead of Celebrity or other lines that maintain more strict "formal' dress codes, these lines will grow to match the demand.

Norm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old April 16th, 2008, 05:55 PM
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Irish Girl,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I found on another site someone posted the Daily with the "required dress code for the evening" on formal night. It states Ladies should wear a "dressy outfit". To me a dressy outfit is black slacks and a sparkly top.
Here's the evening dress code as currently stated on Celebrity's web site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celebrity Cruises
A gentleman's choice for casual nights includes a sport shirt and slacks, while women will be comfortable in a pants suit, skirt and blouse, or casual dress.

On informal nights, men are requested to wear a jacket, shirt and slacks, No jeans, while women may want to wear a suit or dress.

For the formal nights, including the Captain's Welcome Aboard Cocktail Party, dinner on the second night, and the Captain's Farewell Dinner held the next-to-last night of the cruise; both men and women may prefer more dressy attire, such as an evening gown for women and a tuxedo or dress suit for men.
Dressy pants and a top clearly are NOT within "more dressy attire, such as an evening gown for women." I'll grant that Celebrity's web site is not always consistent with the information prescribed aboard ship, which is what actually governs, but the disparity is not that great!

Norm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 07:44 AM
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FIRST. For some reason, the latest posts filled my screen so much that I had to go back and forth in order to read it all. Does anyone know why that happens and what I can do to correct it? Thanks!

Rev, with all due respect, you are one ****of a rigid guy! Why are you such a stickler for the "rules of ettiquette"? Not very many people would agree with you or even care!

I agree that it is unappetizing to see slobs in the dining room (or anywhere else, for that matter).

But, we are not discussing a charity gala where every woman wants to outshine every other! We are not talking about the Cabots and the Lodges. We are talking about very ordinary everyday kind of "folks".

I hope you are not really upset when you see fellow pax who are not dressed to your standards, because you must see it all the time.

By the way, our invitation stated "black tie welcome". This gave leeway to those who didn't want to be "formal". But just about everyone dressed beautifully. The women looked gorgeous, hair, make-up, jewellery and yes, even the short dresses and pant outfits. It was wonderful!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 08:00 AM
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You aren't going to win this argument. If it were up to Norm it would be all formal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Bob
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 08:06 AM
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Ok, I found the Daily from the Millenium sailing of 12/2/07, this is what it says:

http://www.cruisemates.com/gallery/image.php?id=72724

As you can clearly see, it says "Dressy Outfit" for Ladies on Formal Night. I didn't make it up.

The problem is, we have 3 different dress codes. One in the Brochure, one on the Website and one on board. Which one is correct? Everybody has their own opinion about this including Celebrity themselves. When I called them, I was told nobody is turned away unless they are wearing shorts or a swimsuit.

[/url]
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Conquest 10/04
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 05:28 PM
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matey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
FIRST. For some reason, the latest posts filled my screen so much that I had to go back and forth in order to read it all. Does anyone know why that happens and what I can do to correct it? Thanks!
There's something -- typically a picture or a URL not set properly -- that's longer horizontally than the width of your browser window in one or another of the posts on the affected page of the thread. The offending item forces your browser to expand the message display to that width, making it wider than your window. There are four things within your control that might help.

>> 1. You can "maximize" your browser window to make it the full size of the screen, which might make it wide enough for the offending item.

>> 2. If that is not sufficient, you can upgrade your computer system with a new monitor and/or a new graphics controller to display more pixels in width, then maximize your browser's window.

>> 3. You can try upgrading your browser or switching to a different browser if you don't have the most recent version. It's possible that the display is using a feature of HTML that is not working correctly in your current browser.

>> 4. If the offending item is in one of your posts, you can edit the post to fix it or to remove it, as applicable. If it's in somebody else's post, you cannot edit it but you can send a private post to the poster asking that poster to fix his or her post.

But this thread is displaying normally in my browser....

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Rev, with all due respect, you are one ****of a rigid guy!
I don't get this comment. I have consistently said that (1) cruise lines should continue to differentiate themselves by the manner prescribed dress, and (2) we all should choose a cruise line with a prescribed style of dress that matches the style that we want. Why do you perceive that to be rigid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Why are you such a stickler for the "rules of ettiquette"? Not very many people would agree with you or even care!
Conformance with the rules of etiquette is the hallmark of true class. Nonconformance is the hallmark of buffoons traditionally viewed as nouveau rich (literally, "new rich") or coming from "the wrong side of the tracks" (the low class neighborhood) -- people who, in either case, grew up with no social training. Your choice.

But beyond that, I suspect that most of us have a very skewed sample set in terms of measuring whether "most" people feel one way or the other. Those of us who come from families with real class tend to live in neighborhoods inhabited predominantly by people with real class and to travel in social circles of people with real class, and thus find that most of our contacts think that compliance with social etiquette is very important. Conversely, those of us who grew up with a lack of social training tend to live in neighborhoods of people who lack social training and to travel in social circles of people who lack social training, and thus find that most of our contacts think that the norms of social etiquette are not important at all. Indeed, the old television program "The Beverly Hillbillies" satirized the difference by transplanting a family in the latter group into a neighborhood of the former group.

Overall, my experience is that well over 90% of the passengers on Celebrity conform to the prescribed dress code and expect others to do so. I would think that those who don't would feel most uncomfortable. Reports on this board indicate that this is not so true of the very short (four nght and five night) Caribbean cruises that Celebrity now offers aboard MV Century, but it's very true of Celebrity's longer (European, Transatlantic, Panama Canal, Hawai'i, etc.) cruises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I agree that it is unappetizing to see slobs in the dining room (or anywhere else, for that matter).

But, we are not discussing a charity gala where every woman wants to outshine every other! We are not talking about the Cabots and the Lodges. We are talking about very ordinary everyday kind of "folks".
The "formal" charity events that I have attended were not "the Cabots and the Lodges." Rather, those in attendance were a very broad cross section of people from all walks of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I hope you are not really upset when you see fellow pax who are not dressed to your standards, because you must see it all the time.
It's not "my" standards, but rather the cruise line's standards.

And frankly, I am very upset -- but not at the passengers who, in their ignorance, don't comprehend just how boorish their actions are, but rather at the cruise line that does not enforce the prescribed standard of dress and thus fails to deliver the product (a true "formal" evening) that it advertised.

Norm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 05:29 PM
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Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
You aren't going to win this argument. If it were up to Norm it would be all formal for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
No, not at all. Just dinner.

Norm.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 05:31 PM
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Irish Girl,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
The problem is, we have 3 different dress codes. One in the Brochure, one on the Website and one on board. Which one is correct? Everybody has their own opinion about this including Celebrity themselves. When I called them, I was told nobody is turned away unless they are wearing shorts or a swimsuit.
The dress code prescribed onboard is always controlling, but Celebrity should not be publishing inconsistent information.

Norm.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old April 17th, 2008, 07:30 PM
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Norm, I really did enjoy reading your post! Why are you so class conscious?
I am sure you were very well brought up. And, you may not believe it, but I, also was very well brought up. But I am a liberal. It's my nature. Live and let live. If someone is offensive, I just avoid that person.

As for the long lines, I am not computer savvy enough to figure that out. It has happened to me before here on cruisemates. I will ask my kids. They know everything about computers!

So, who's going to win tonight? The Habs (who have class) or the Bruins (Hillbillies)??!!??
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Old April 18th, 2008, 10:55 AM
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Ultimately Norm is right. If you do some research before your cruise and choose a cruise line that suits your needs none of this discussion would be necessary and your choice of formal or casual would be easy.
Bob
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old April 18th, 2008, 01:05 PM
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"Those of us who come from families with real class tend to live in neighborhoods inhabited predominantly by people with real class and to travel in social circles of people with real class, and thus find that most of our contacts think that compliance with social etiquette is very important. Conversely, those of us who grew up with a lack of social training tend to live in neighborhoods of people who lack social training and to travel in social circles of people who lack social training, and thus find that most of our contacts think that the norms of social etiquette are not important at all. Indeed, the old television program "The Beverly Hillbillies" satirized the difference by transplanting a family in the latter group into a neighborhood of the former group. "


Norm, you are definitely well educated and well spoken, but can you really be so shallow? Someone with 'real class' would never flaunt it nor boast about their pedigree. To be offended by those who do not fit your perception of Celebrity's rules (which obviously vary depending on where you look) is ludicrous. I like to be dressed up for formal night but man, if you're at my table I'm switching! The view down your nose must be a terrible burden to bear while trying to enjoy a wonderful cruise. I do agree that people should choose the cruiseline that fits their style. But having chosen Celebrity and knowing its guidelines, leave the rest up to the cruisers and try to avoid judging others.........your filet mignon and lobster may settle better.
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Old April 18th, 2008, 06:16 PM
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I met a young couple in Cozumel last year from South America on a Sail and Snorkle Rum runner. They were on a Celebrity ship and had many questions for my husband and myself about our ship the RCCL Enchantment. It seems they had gone through a travel agent and had thought they had done all their homework. They wanted a young party ship. After all it was their spring break. They were so disappointed that their Celebrity Cruise had such an older crowd. It was truely what they had hoped to avoid. Everything about Celebrity was very classy, however it was not what they were looking for. They claimed they had been very exact about their wishes and trusted their TA but obviously had been steered in the wrong direction. I must say they were very well spoken for the little English they spoke and were very well dressed for a Rum Runner.
Norm , what a shame it would have been for them if they had been sat at your table. I can only imagine how uncomfortable you would have made them, and at no fault of their own. You need to lighten up. You do not know what others circumstances are.

I talked to a man today that has been on 24 HAL, 20 RCCL, 2 Celebrity and 2 Carnival. On his last cruise on HAL the captain called him personally to invite him to dinner. He was so proud about it he could BUST! I asked how he dressed for formal night and he responded " in a tuxedo, of course" The formality makes everything " grand". "It is the night of the best food, ambience, the best of everything. " I asked him if HAL allows passengers in the public areas on formal night dressed down.He was shocked that I asked. His response: Of course they do, why wouldn't they? As soon as dinner is over I change into my shorts and comfortable shoes , after all we are on a cruise ship!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old April 19th, 2008, 12:03 PM
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matey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
With close to 1000 male pax on a given cruise, there is no way that they all will don tux or very dark suit. That is too much to expect.
I completely disagree.

One of the lessons I learned as a naval officer is that you get what you enforce rather than what you expect. If Celebrity were to start enforcing dress codes fairly strictly, the word of that enforcement would spread like wildfire through these boards and through the community of travel agents, and compliance would be nearly total. In fairness, though, I think that a cruise line should give ample notice in advance with regard to a change in policy with regard to enforcement of its rules.

Here, I should also mention that there's another dimension to this issue. The failure to enforce minor rules, such as evening dress codes, tends to breed an attitude that the rules do not matter and thus widespread disregard for the rules. During his tenure as Mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani demonstrated the magnitude of this effect. His secret to cutting crime was simply directing the police to nab those caught jumping turnstyles in the subway or committing other similarly minor infractions. When they did so, most of the city's violent crime literally went away. On a cruise ship, passengers tho think that the rules don't matter often disregard safety regulations and safety-related instructions from the crew during tender operations, during muster drills and even during real casualties, and at other times, unnecessarily putting themselves and others into danger. I have not yet heard of any instances in which such disregard has caused or compounded a casualty, but there's no doubt that such chickens eventually come home to roost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "You
Would you really object if your tablemate wore a suit that wasn't very dark? Or if he wore a blazer and tie?
Yes, that would be objectionable. Of course, social etiquette also dictates that a guest does not deliberately embarrass another guest. Thus, I act as graciously as possible toward the offender(s) and subsequently address the matter of failure to enforce dress codes with the ship's staff and on the passenger survey at the end of the cruise when the offender(s) are not present whenever I'm confronted with such a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I agree with Irish girl. Dressy slacks and top are fine. They suit a certain figure better than a gown that bares too much. Short cocktail dresses are also fine. The younger girls are wearing more short than long these days.
I agree that "formal" cocktail dresses are within the guidelines of Celebrity and most other cruise lines for "formal" evenings. Slacks and a dressy top, however, are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Final word, I would rather see a man or woman dressed elegantly for their age and shape, than see some poor soul looking out of place trying to follow to the letter of "formal". Formal does not necessarity = good taste.
Rather, showing up at a "formal" event in attire that is not "formal" most certainly exhibits a lack of "good taste" as well as a lack of upbringing, and thus reflects adversely upon one's parents as well as upon one's self.

BTW, formal outfits styled for older ladies who "don't look good" in so-called "prom dresses" styled for the younger crowd. In particular, so-called "mother of the bride" and "mother of the groom" dresses fall into this category. For those on tight budgets, such dresses -- worn only once by women who bought them for a son's or daughter's wedding and don't expect to have another occasion to wear them, and thus in excellent condition with a lot of useful life -- are readily available for a third of their original price or less in many consignment shops and thrift shops, though it may take some hunting around to find what one likes.

Norm.
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Old April 19th, 2008, 12:18 PM
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kd,

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Originally Posted by You
Norm, you are definitely well educated and well spoken, but can you really be so shallow? Someone with 'real class' would never flaunt it nor boast about their pedigree.
I don't think that I ever claimed to have "real class" or to come from a highbrow family. In fact, just the opposite is true. I have crossed various lines, and learned what not to do by being in situations where bosses have taken me to task for doing the wrong thing. And when that happens a few times, one gets a reputable manual of social etiquette and studies it thoroughly to learn the right way. if that's manifest by a tendency to post on this subject like a reformed smoker would post about smoking, so be it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
To be offended by those who do not fit your perception of Celebrity's rules (which obviously vary depending on where you look) is ludicrous. I like to be dressed up for formal night but man, if you're at my table I'm switching! The view down your nose must be a terrible burden to bear while trying to enjoy a wonderful cruise. I do agree that people should choose the cruiseline that fits their style. But having chosen Celebrity and knowing its guidelines, leave the rest up to the cruisers and try to avoid judging others.........your filet mignon and lobster may settle better.
There's a fundamental difference between a forum like this, which is intended to provide accurate information, and a situation that might arise on a cruise ship when somebody shows up for dinner dressed inappropriately. It would not exhibit class to humiliate those who are to ignorant or too arrogant to comply with the prescribed manner of dress. Rather, I just take up the matter of failure to enforce dress codes and consequent legal breach of contract -- which are the real issues -- with the ship's staff and on the end of cruise comment form when the offenders are not around.

Norm.
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Old April 19th, 2008, 12:27 PM
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CWolsten,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I met a young couple in Cozumel last year from South America on a Sail and Snorkle Rum runner. They were on a Celebrity ship and had many questions for my husband and myself about our ship the RCCL Enchantment. It seems they had gone through a travel agent and had thought they had done all their homework. They wanted a young party ship. After all it was their spring break. They were so disappointed that their Celebrity Cruise had such an older crowd. It was truely what they had hoped to avoid. Everything about Celebrity was very classy, however it was not what they were looking for. They claimed they had been very exact about their wishes and trusted their TA but obviously had been steered in the wrong direction. I must say they were very well spoken for the little English they spoke and were very well dressed for a Rum Runner.
I regret that their travel agent acted so unprofessionally by doing such a disservice to them, to their fellow passengers, and to the cruise line.

Here, I think that all of the cruise lines should institute a policy of withholding a portion of the travel agents' commissions until the passengers complete the cruise and should direct the staff aboard ship to identify passengers for whom the line is a very good or very poor match. For those adjudged to ge an exeptionally good match, the travel agent should receive an extra amount. Conversely, for those adjudged to be a bad match, the cruise line should reduce the commission or eliminate it completely. When the travel agent's commission is tied directly to his or her performance, we'll see a lot less of this misconduct!

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Norm , what a shame it would have been for them if they had been sat at your table. I can only imagine how uncomfortable you would have made them, and at no fault of their own. You need to lighten up. You do not know what others circumstances are.
Then you obviously don't know me very well! As I have said in other posts, I would act as graciously as possible at dinner and would take up the cruise line's failure to enforce dress codes, both with the ship's staff and on the end of cruise comment form, when the offenders were not around.

Norm.
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Old April 19th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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To continue my rebuttal: First, I want to commend you for having enough of the social graces to realize that it would be in very bad form to make a fellow pax uncomfortable. So, you are just blowing off steam here, which is fine.

I beg to differ with your analogies regarding the navy and the police force. This is a cruise, a vacation, for heaven's sake. The only "rules" that concern me are the safety rules. What I or anyone else wears is NOT THAT IMPORTANT. They have formal nights because some people like them. They don't force the issue because some people don't like them. It's a simple as that.

You may not realize this, but there are many different reasons for choosing a particular cruiseline. Perhaps, some cruisers choose Celebrity for the formal nights, but others may choose Celebrity for a number of other reasons.

I am not condoning slobs. That is another matter.

We find that Celebrity pax are very middle/working class. We have seen senior men with tatoos and earrings! That may not bother you, but I found it shocking! (I live in a very sheltered community!) And guess what? Surprise! When talking to them, they spoke like normal people!

One of the interesting aspects of a cruise is that you have a chance to meet all kinds of people from different places and with different lifestyles. This to me is more significant than whether or not they follow the CODE to the letter.

But, you are you and I am me!!!!
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Old April 19th, 2008, 03:29 PM
kd kd is offline
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NORM WROTE: "Those of us who come from families with real class tend to live in neighborhoods inhabited predominantly by people with real class and to travel in social circles of people with real class, and thus find that most of our contacts think that compliance with social etiquette is very important. Conversely, those of us who grew up with a lack of social training tend to live in neighborhoods of people who lack social training and to travel in social circles of people who lack social training, and thus find that most of our contacts think that the norms of social etiquette are not important at all. Indeed, the old television program "The Beverly Hillbillies" satirized the difference by transplanting a family in the latter group into a neighborhood of the former group. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I must be really confused or illiterate How else could one interpret this paragraph??? Glad to hear that you wouldn't humiliate the deviant at the table, but you are still being supremely critical of others. Thankfully the caste system never took hold in North America........or did it
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Old April 19th, 2008, 07:29 PM
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[

Conformance with the rules of etiquette is the hallmark of true class. Nonconformance is the hallmark of buffoons traditionally viewed as nouveau rich (literally, "new rich") or coming from "the wrong side of the tracks" (the low class neighborhood) -- people who, in either case, grew up with no social training. Your choice.

But beyond that, I suspect that most of us have a very skewed sample set in terms of measuring whether "most" people feel one way or the other. Those of us who come from families with real class tend to live in neighborhoods inhabited predominantly by people with real class and to travel in social circles of people with real class, and thus find that most of our contacts think that compliance with social etiquette is very important.


[q
Norm.[/quote]

Those comments are a joke I hope because they certainly show no class whatsoever...

There is no rebutal to that since it is so outrageous on its face...

Don
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Old April 21st, 2008, 05:23 PM
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matey,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
To continue my rebuttal: First, I want to commend you for having enough of the social graces to realize that it would be in very bad form to make a fellow pax uncomfortable. So, you are just blowing off steam here, which is fine.
No, I'm not "just blowing off steam." Rather, I'm trying to provide information as to what is proper or "expected" so those who come here seeking that information will know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I beg to differ with your analogies regarding the navy and the police force. This is a cruise, a vacation, for heaven's sake. The only "rules" that concern me are the safety rules. What I or anyone else wears is NOT THAT IMPORTANT. They have formal nights because some people like them. They don't force the issue because some people don't like them. It's a simple as that.
I agree with your sentiments up to a point. The problem here is that manner of dress is a major element in setting the ambiance of a "formal" or "informal" (as opposed to "casual") evening. People who choose to book on Celebrity based upon the line's representation that there will be two or three "formal" evenings and several "informal" evenings have a legal right to expect that those evenings will have the ambiance implied by that designation. When the cruise line fails to provide the advertised product, it technically is in breach of contract.

JTOL, perhaps one ought to pursue this in court to get the company's attention....

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
You may not realize this, but there are many different reasons for choosing a particular cruiseline. Perhaps, some cruisers choose Celebrity for the formal nights, but others may choose Celebrity for a number of other reasons.
I'm sure that those reasons are equally valid. Nonetheless, when one chooses Celebrity, the line's "formal" and "informal" evenings are part of the package for which one signs up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We find that Celebrity pax are very middle/working class. We have seen senior men with tatoos and earrings! That may not bother you, but I found it shocking! (I live in a very sheltered community!) And guess what? Surprise! When talking to them, they spoke like normal people!
True. Of course, neither tattoos nor earrings (on men) violate Celebrity's dress codes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
One of the interesting aspects of a cruise is that you have a chance to meet all kinds of people from different places and with different lifestyles. This to me is more significant than whether or not they follow the CODE to the letter.
I'm glad to meet people of many different backgrounds, and I have no problem with cultural variations that are equivalent to the "suggested" manner of dress. I have no problem with Scotsmen who wear kilts with their dinner jackets or Bermudan men whose dinner jackets come with formal shorts (with the satin inserts in the outseams, like "formal" trowsers that the rest of us normally wear with our dinner jackets). Of course, such outfits are NOT the same as "dressing down" -- which is the subject of this thread. Rather, they are cultural equivalents to the prescribed dress, which "dressing down" is not.

Norm.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 06:09 AM
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The original question was whether it was alright to dress in casual clothes after dinner not for dinner!!!!!!
As usual the fashion police have turned it into their personal forum to tell the world how to dress.
Bob
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 04:50 PM
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Bob,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
The original question was whether it was alright to dress in casual clothes after dinner not for dinner!!!!!!
As usual the fashion police have turned it into their personal forum to tell the world how to dress.
And the original answer that it is not appropriate to do so on Celebrity still stands.

Norm.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17
Bob,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
The original question was whether it was alright to dress in casual clothes after dinner not for dinner!!!!!!
As usual the fashion police have turned it into their personal forum to tell the world how to dress.
And the original answer that it is not appropriate to do so on Celebrity still stands.

Norm.
I guess I'll have to test that when I cruise. I'll let you know what happens.
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