Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > Cruise Lines (Mainstream) > Celebrity
Register Forgot Password?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old August 16th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default Excellent must read Zero Tolerence Policy

Cruisemates has written an excellent article on the use of Zero Tolerence Policy on the Solstice. I congratulate the author, I believe it might be Paul, on this article. I would love to find out what happened to the other guy who appears to be the instigator.

Don

http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/...nce-081309.cfm
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old August 16th, 2009, 04:48 PM
joeyanddavid's Avatar
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 155
Default Re: Excellent must read Zero Tolerence Policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkjretired
I would love to find out what happened to the other guy who appears to be the instigator.

Don

http://www.cruisemates.com/newsletter.html
Don agreed good piece.. I also wonder what happened to the other gentleman
__________________
Joey
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old August 17th, 2009, 10:04 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 529
Default

Interesting article. To address the first part of the article, which had nothing to do with zero tolerance; I might add that if you are made physically ill by foul odors coming into your cabin for several days, then you have every right to be upset. IMHO, the passengers who were made ill were just expressing their opinions about what they went through on that cruise. That is what these boards are for and an example of how the sharing of information helps all of us to better informed consumers. None of us were there and had to endure what they did and therefore it is up to the people involved to make their own judgment about what and when to accept any compensation.

The second part highlights the almost complete loss of all of your rights once you step onboard any cruise ship. Now don't get me wrong, I feel that both parties were at fault in the case about the poor guy being thrown off the ship. My opinion is that there were many better ways to work this matter out, but again you are at the mercy of some guy who may have little or no experience at conflict resolution. I am willing to bet the Russian guy with the body guard who actually started the problem was not thrown off the ship. As is the usual outcome, the cruise line is only interested in protecting their back side and not necessarily interested in the fairest decision for all parties involved.

At this time there are really no rights for cruisers and you are at the mercy of how a cruise line decides to treat you and ship conditions on board. Believe it or not there is even a clause that says "Celebrity does not guarantee the seaworthiness of their vessels" right there in your cruise contract.

For me this points out the need for laws to at least give passengers some legal rights to address serious grievances because of actions of a cruise line employee or conditions on any cruise ship.

Debra
__________________
With integrity nothing else matters; without it nothing else matters.

Winston Churchill

email: debra2106@yahoo.com
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old August 20th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Triton's Avatar
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SFO - Bay Area
Posts: 586
Default

I knew I should have majored in law...

Triton - Maritime Attorney, No Case too Small - No Cruise Ship too Big

Seriously, I do agree. Good points all the way around. I'm glad for this board which hopefully educates other pax.

We just need to remember, "Somewhere in the middle lies the truth". Everyone has their own unique and often real perception of what happened. Conflict resolution is a big part of my 8-5 job.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old August 21st, 2009, 03:43 PM
Junior Member
Beginner
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 5
Default

I'm confused. I clicked on that link and it was an article about the differences in cruise lines. Nothing about any troubles on a ship. What am I missing?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old August 22nd, 2009, 01:37 PM
monkeythyme's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 258
Default

Read the article, canceled my weekly Celebrity newsletter, proved I can be just as hasty and arbitrary as a Celebrity captain. I don't need to be on a line that slants its preference toward rich Russians, because I am neither rich nor Russian.
As Yogurt said in "Spaceballs", there's an upside and a downside to every schwartz. I may sail with a "lesser" class on Carnival or RCI, but I don't have to be concerned about abuse or threats from "aristocrats" who can do me far more harm than the random drunk can.
I notice that Celebrity announced the resignation of their marketing director four days after the date of this article. Is that just a coincidence, or could there be a connection. I sure wouldn't want to be in the cross-hairs of this situation, especially since Mr. Laderoute's quite moderate reaction to the matter makes Celebrity look really bad by comparison.
__________________
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. ---Groucho Marx
Navigator of the Seas 2005, 2006
Holiday 2005, 2006, 2008
Sovereign of the Seas 2007
Carnival Fantasy 2008
Carnival Fascination 9/14/09
Freedom of the Seas 11/28/10
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old August 24th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythyme
Read the article, canceled my weekly Celebrity newsletter, proved I can be just as hasty and arbitrary as a Celebrity captain. I don't need to be on a line that slants its preference toward rich Russians, because I am neither rich nor Russian.
As Yogurt said in "Spaceballs", there's an upside and a downside to every schwartz. I may sail with a "lesser" class on Carnival or RCI, but I don't have to be concerned about abuse or threats from "aristocrats" who can do me far more harm than the random drunk can.
I notice that Celebrity announced the resignation of their marketing director four days after the date of this article. Is that just a coincidence, or could there be a connection. I sure wouldn't want to be in the cross-hairs of this situation, especially since Mr. Laderoute's quite moderate reaction to the matter makes Celebrity look really bad by comparison.
What????? Nobody said they treated the Russian guy any different, he may have been thown off the ship also, we don't don't either way.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old August 24th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,662
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

Here is the interesting article Paul Motter wrote from our Cruisemates Newsletter...


Zero Tolerance for Dean

I often receive angry letters from people who believe they were somehow wronged by a cruise line and want their money back. These cases run from compelling to laughable. I have one from a couple who wants a 100% refund because there was a foul smell detectable from their balcony. They turned down a 25% onboard credit with cash for the unused portion offered by the Hotel Manager during the first days of the cruise. Now that offer is no longer on the table and they are upset - writing letters and posting messages everywhere.


But I have another letter where the tone is very different, despite an incident that cost a Celebrity passenger over $12,000. The person involved admits his partial culpability and appears to be truly sorry for it, but I have to say I am in awe of the reaction and consequences dealt out to him by the cruise line.

Dean Laderoute booked a full 12-night Mediterranean cruise on Celebrity Solstice, traveling with his wife, two children and a couple of family friends. After the welcome aboard champagne including the free bottle in his suite and wine with dinner, Dean admits he was feeling no pain. He didn't care when his kids rolled their eyes as he danced his wife to the music in the atrium.

After dinner, Dean and his friend sat down to play Caribbean Poker in the casino. A Russian man was taking his cards very seriously, and according to Dean, had a body guard and his friends surrounding him. Dean and friend were conversing with the casino staff in Italian and French, doing their best to ignore the Russian slamming his hands down and yelling in Russian every time he lost, and the glares he shot at Dean while they were talking to the staff.



Soon the pit boss walked up to Dean and said, "This gentleman (referring to the Russian) asks that you only speak English at the table." Somewhat surprised, and not in the mood for stangers telling him what to do, Dean asked the Russian directly why he wanted to limit their conversation to English. He noted that the play is against the house, not between players. There are no rules on ships that say a passenger must only speak English, or that they cannot speak to the staff, even in the casino. Nor does one passenger have the right to tell another passenger what to do. The Russian man did not even react to what Dean said in English, the language he has requested they speak. Choosing to ignore this somewhat confusing set if circumstances Dean once again started speaking to the staff in Italian and French. All within their rights as independent paying guests on the ship.

Dean was aware that the Russian man continued to appear angry, but he was minding his own business. Suddenly the Russian man made a hand gesture like a double-barreled pistol, pointed it at his own temple, cocked his thumb and "shot" - glaring at Dean the whole time. The man had just sent a second non-verbal message to Dean, "I'm going to kill you." Dean was shocked and responded in a way he now regrets, he attempted to douse the Russian with the contents of his drinking glass. Unfortunately the moist glass slipped through his fingers, fortunately it fell on the floor and no one was hurt, or even got wet.





With the outburst two security guards ran up and grabbed Dean from behind. Dean was mad, and he admits he let out a few swear words directed the pitboss, but witnesses also quickly approached to indicate the Russian had been the provocateur; belligerant and threatening. It didn't matter. Dean wisely calmed down and asked to return to his stateroom. The guards accompanied him there but he was not confined. He soon decided to return to the casino and apologize to everyone, but the Russian had left.

The next day, the first full day of the cruise, the Hotel Manager contacted Dean Laderoute to say he must leave the ship the next day, in Santorini, Greece. Dean initially thought it was a joke, but no one was smiling. He asked if the Russian had filed a complaint and was told "not yet." Apparently some staffers did not agree with the decision and said they were pulling for him, but the final word was between the captain and Miami and Dean was never allowed to speak to either of them . He was put off the ship with no compensation for the cost of the cruise and no expenses paid to help him get back to the United States.

Keep in mind this didn't happen at the end of a Caribbean cruise. The cruise had cost Dean $8424 for his portion alone, and he racked up another $3690 keeping up with his family by flying to each port and staying in a hotel. That involved four flights and ten nights in hotels and all of his meals. A few moments of losing his temper, although he was provoked and no one was hurt, cost Dean Laderoute over $12,000.

When Dean was asked to leave he initially thought they were joking. Cold harsh reality set in quickly, however, when it was explained the cruise contract gives Celebrity the right to put anyone off the ship for bad behavior, and Dean's swearing was cited repeatedly as the main egregious concern.

What is the lesson here? That everyone had better take the "zero tolerance of crimes" policy on cruise ships very seriously. You can be put off the ship and you will not be compensated. With all my correspondence with Dean I have to say this much - he is contrite and accepts the responsibility for what happened. He wrote to me saying "I hope other people can learn from my experience." I certainly learned something.

In the long run I do not know what happened to the Russian man, but it is safe to say, according to witnesses, that Dean was minding his own business and not breaking any rules when he was provoked. I don't know if the Russian was also put off the ship for making a death-threatening gesture, but if not I would like to know why not. I also think that the Solstice captain could have found a more workable solution. Dean promised to stay in his cabin if need be - anything not to have to leave the ship to no avail.

Dean was told the ship would be responsible if any further flareup occured between him and the Russian. Risk Management. Wouldn't a meeting between the captain and the two parties have determined that? Call it a "fair hearing." I understand zero tolerance and risk management, but come on - this is real money and real people. It seems a bit cowardly not to give people a second chance.

This is just a sad story all the way around. Anyone who witnesses such events can gauge pretty quickly if a person is a habitual trouble maker, or if something extraordinary happened. I don't know Dean but I have to say that within the context of all the complaint letters I receive, rarely do I see a person more contrite and less outraged or demanding, especially considering he lost over $12,000 in vacation investment.
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old August 24th, 2009, 08:47 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,772
Default Re: Excellent must read Zero Tolerence Policy

Everybody,

I'm not going to defend Dean's actions in this article. He apparently was rather inebriated, and that fact probably contributed to his mishandling of the theats that another passenger directed at him. Had he simply filed a complaint about the Russian's threatening gestures, he would not have lost out on the cruise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The article
Soon the pit boss walked up to Dean and said, "This gentleman (referring to the Russian) asks that you only speak English at the table."
I understand that the casino does not want to lose a "high stakes" player.

I also understand that the Russian may have felt that the conversation in a language that he did not understand may have been strategizing to make him lose.

Nonetheless, a cruise line that markets its products to people who do not speak English must accommodate passengers who do not speak English, and thus cannot impose "English Only" rules even in its casino. Thus, the casino's "pit boss" was out of line in telling Dean to speak English. Rather, he should have told the Russian that passengers in the casino have the right to speak whatever language they wish, and that he could play or not as he saw fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The article
The next day, the first full day of the cruise, the Hotel Manager contacted Dean Laderoute to say he must leave the ship the next day, in Santorini, Greece. Dean initially thought it was a joke, but no one was smiling. He asked if the Russian had filed a complaint and was told "not yet." Apparently some staffers did not agree with the decision and said they were pulling for him, but the final word was between the captain and Miami and Dean was never allowed to speak to either of them . He was put off the ship with no compensation for the cost of the cruise and no expenses paid to help him get back to the United States.
I find this part of the procedure objectionable. One ship's officers who was senior to all of the staff involved should have conducted a formal investigation of the incident, including interviews of all those involved and all material witnesses, before anybody decided on any course of disciplinary action. After reviewing the report, the master or another senior officer should have held an official hearing, summarized the description of the incident in the report including relevant aggravating and mitigating circumstances, and asked those involved if they had anything else to add before making the final decision.

As it is, Dean probably could sue Celebrity over the lack of due process and recover a lot more than the $13k plus legal expenses even though the cruise line clearly did have cause to tell him to leave the ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The article
This is just a sad story all the way around. Anyone who witnesses such events can gauge pretty quickly if a person is a habitual trouble maker, or if something extraordinary happened.
People who get into incidents when drunk tend to be habitual offenders in that regard. Had Dean been sober at the time, the outcome might have been very different.

Norm.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old August 25th, 2009, 08:19 AM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Norm:

I agree with almost everything you say except the parts about the hearings. This is just not practical with the time constraints and where does that end. Are they entitled to lawyers at these hearings as would occur in many locations in the states such as schools, busineesses, etc. If not would that be a lack of due process. Also, I doubt seriously he could collect anything off an incident such as this, he was drunk and admitted an assault himself.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old August 25th, 2009, 11:59 AM
Triton's Avatar
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SFO - Bay Area
Posts: 586
Default

Thanks Trip for posting the text of Paul's story. It is a sad story but one to remember. Stay sober!

I recently terminated one employee for drawing a sketch of a fellow employee (one whom is obnoxious and not a "favorite" by many") and the picture was the not-so-popular employee with a gun held to his head, displaying a look of fear and tears in his eyes. I thought it was mean.

While the employee was just "joking around", we / I have a zero-tolerance policy for threats, harassment or any form of disrimination. He was contrite and knew that what he did was out of line. Did he pull a trigger? No. Would he have? Probably not - but the point is, his joke and "emotional release" from doing this certainly wasn't worth the end result.

Saying that- I firmly believe that somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Let's hear statements from the Russian and the other staffers before taking sides.

One last thought...if the Russian was pointing the imaginary gun at his OWN head, could he have been saying, "Death is better than listening to this guy next to me!" Rather than, "I'm going to kill you"? He didn't point the "gun" at Dean, he pointed it at his own head. Whenever I have made that gesture or seen others do it, I naturally assume that whatever they're dealing with is driving them crazy. Maybe I'm wrong...

If I were gambling, I may feel put off by another player conversing in a language WITH the casino staff...who was dealing. It wouldn't have been necessary, but surely polite if the casino dealer had interpreted what Dean was saying to the Russian, so he didn't think there was any cheating going on...or that he wasn't being made a spectacle.

Yes, just a sad story all the way around.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old August 25th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triton
Thanks Trip for posting the text of Paul's story. It is a sad story but one to remember. Stay sober!

I recently terminated one employee for drawing a sketch of a fellow employee (one whom is obnoxious and not a "favorite" by many") and the picture was the not-so-popular employee with a gun held to his head, displaying a look of fear and tears in his eyes. I thought it was mean.

While the employee was just "joking around", we / I have a zero-tolerance policy for threats, harassment or any form of disrimination. He was contrite and knew that what he did was out of line. Did he pull a trigger? No. Would he have? Probably not - but the point is, his joke and "emotional release" from doing this certainly wasn't worth the end result.

Saying that- I firmly believe that somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Let's hear statements from the Russian and the other staffers before taking sides.

One last thought...if the Russian was pointing the imaginary gun at his OWN head, could he have been saying, "Death is better than listening to this guy next to me!" Rather than, "I'm going to kill you"? He didn't point the "gun" at Dean, he pointed it at his own head. Whenever I have made that gesture or seen others do it, I naturally assume that whatever they're dealing with is driving them crazy. Maybe I'm wrong...

If I were gambling, I may feel put off by another player conversing in a language WITH the casino staff...who was dealing. It wouldn't have been necessary, but surely polite if the casino dealer had interpreted what Dean was saying to the Russian, so he didn't think there was any cheating going on...or that he wasn't being made a spectacle.

Yes, just a sad story all the way around.
Triton:

You know what is ironic about this whole thing is something from Dean's background. If you check his name on the internet you will find he owns a couple of bars in the Quebec area and recently was embroiled in a legal argument for posting English signs in his bar. They have rules in Quebec that you must post signs in French. He gets in trouble then for speaking French on the cruise ship. Not relevent to the incident itself but I thought it was ironic.

Also, I would have posted the entire text instead of just the link but I thought you were trying to save space as per your sticky at the top of the page.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old August 25th, 2009, 05:06 PM
Triton's Avatar
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SFO - Bay Area
Posts: 586
Default

Don, thank you for posting the link, so glad that you did as it's an interesting topic.

I think many prefer links being posted...I was referring to a couple of PM I received, as well as a poster on this thread who was not able to find the story content, that's all. Thee was a bit of navigating to do, but no worries at all.

Thank you!!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old August 25th, 2009, 08:42 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,662
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

BTW, there are also additional comments on the chit chat page, as I too, posted about this article...
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 12:48 AM
monkeythyme's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 258
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkjretired
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythyme
Read the article, canceled my weekly Celebrity newsletter, proved I can be just as hasty and arbitrary as a Celebrity captain. I don't need to be on a line that slants its preference toward rich Russians, because I am neither rich nor Russian.
As Yogurt said in "Spaceballs", there's an upside and a downside to every schwartz. I may sail with a "lesser" class on Carnival or RCI, but I don't have to be concerned about abuse or threats from "aristocrats" who can do me far more harm than the random drunk can.
I notice that Celebrity announced the resignation of their marketing director four days after the date of this article. Is that just a coincidence, or could there be a connection. I sure wouldn't want to be in the cross-hairs of this situation, especially since Mr. Laderoute's quite moderate reaction to the matter makes Celebrity look really bad by comparison.
What????? Nobody said they treated the Russian guy any different, he may have been thown off the ship also, we don't don't either way.

Don
True [though I rather doubt it], but don't you think Celebrity would be telling their side if it were materially different? Time will tell, I suppose. However, in the meantime, I think I will stick with RCI on my next cruise, and not just because of this story. **Edited to remove commercial link.

I just would not have an optimistic outlook at this point debarking on a Celebrity cruise, and consequently would not be giving them a fair shot.
__________________
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. ---Groucho Marx
Navigator of the Seas 2005, 2006
Holiday 2005, 2006, 2008
Sovereign of the Seas 2007
Carnival Fantasy 2008
Carnival Fascination 9/14/09
Freedom of the Seas 11/28/10
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 01:01 AM
monkeythyme's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 258
Default Re: Excellent must read Zero Tolerence Policy

[quote="Rev22:17"]
Nonetheless, a cruise line that markets its products to people who do not speak English must accommodate passengers who do not speak English, and thus cannot impose "English Only" rules even in its casino. Thus, the casino's "pit boss" was out of line in telling Dean to speak English. Rather, he should have told the Russian that passengers in the casino have the right to speak whatever language they wish, and that he could play or not as he saw fit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monkeythyme wrote:
Apparently the higher-ups among the officers and crew did not agree that the pit boss was out of line, as they backed up his reaction with a greater one of their own. Since I neither drink nor gamble, I would not normally have a dog in this hunt, but if this story stands as reported it reveals an arbitrary "make up the rules as you go" style of management, and I would rather keep a safe distance.
Celebrity Corp, where are you?
__________________
Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. ---Groucho Marx
Navigator of the Seas 2005, 2006
Holiday 2005, 2006, 2008
Sovereign of the Seas 2007
Carnival Fantasy 2008
Carnival Fascination 9/14/09
Freedom of the Seas 11/28/10
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythyme
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkjretired
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythyme
Read the article, canceled my weekly Celebrity newsletter, proved I can be just as hasty and arbitrary as a Celebrity captain. I don't need to be on a line that slants its preference toward rich Russians, because I am neither rich nor Russian.
As Yogurt said in "Spaceballs", there's an upside and a downside to every schwartz. I may sail with a "lesser" class on Carnival or RCI, but I don't have to be concerned about abuse or threats from "aristocrats" who can do me far more harm than the random drunk can.
I notice that Celebrity announced the resignation of their marketing director four days after the date of this article. Is that just a coincidence, or could there be a connection. I sure wouldn't want to be in the cross-hairs of this situation, especially since Mr. Laderoute's quite moderate reaction to the matter makes Celebrity look really bad by comparison.
What????? Nobody said they treated the Russian guy any different, he may have been thown off the ship also, we don't don't either way.

Don
True [though I rather doubt it], but don't you think Celebrity would be telling their side if it were materially different? Time will tell, I suppose. However, in the meantime, I think I will stick with RCI on my next cruise, and not just because of this story. *edited for content*
I just would not have an optimistic outlook at this point debarking on a Celebrity cruise, and consequently would not be giving them a fair shot.
Your choice but of course you realize its all the same corporation...

Both this thread and the one you referenced are prime examples of hearing the second or even third part of the story. The thread on the other board bothers me because of the manner in which it was presented. How do you know that this person didn't act with the language and attitude to the people at the counters trying to help. Also, might point out that RCI has same rules and other lines have refused entry to the ship for illness. Disney did the same thing over the summer. I learned a long time ago that you can't make an educated decision with all the facts.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 10:55 AM
Snoozeman's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bosque County, Texas
Posts: 5,402
Send a message via AIM to Snoozeman Send a message via Yahoo to Snoozeman
Default

Actually I believe there is an 'english only' rule if requested at the casino tables. There is at most casinos, even international ones. I guess we could look at the players club (or whoever runs the casino on that ship) for confirmation. Interesting that it was the non english speaking player requesting it.
__________________
Ray McDonald / Snoozeman
CruiseMates Forum Moderator

My Personal Cruise Blog: My Cruise Blog

Future Cruises:
Navigator of the Seas-Caribbean-3/23/2014, Carnival Freedom-Caribbean-5/10/2014, Carnival Freedom-Caribbean-5/18/2014, Carnival Sunshine-Caribbean-5/30/2014, Carnival Legend-South Pacific-8/30/2014, MSC Preziosa-Mediterranean-10/25/2014, MSC Fantasia-Mediterranean-11/2/2014
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 11:01 AM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,598
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

I fixed the link in the top post - the newsletter gets updated weekly, but the Celebrity incident article has a permanent link and is now in the top post.

For the record, I did email Celebrity and ask them if they had a comment. I heard back from PR that they were not aware of the incident, but I never heard anything else from them.

I think this is a sad thing, I do feel cruise lines should try harder to keep people on board. Unfortunately, once you start looking at it as "risk manangement" - in other words what we would all be saying if either of these parties had stayed on and the situation HAD gone bad - then you have a different story.

The cruise lines are trying to PREVENT bad things from happening. I think that chances are in either case that the cruise could have proceded and everyone would have been fine. But they have become overly cautious, mostly due to a ton of negative media coverage every time someone sneezes on a cruise ship.

I have written many articles about media sensationalism suggesting that cruisers who love cruising should stand up to the media for their often biased coverage. In truth, I don't seem to get the reaction from cruisers that I expected from those articles I write on that topic.
Now we are seeing the results of letting the sensationalism in the media dictate the decisions the cruise lines make, and it isn't pretty.
__________________
I am the editor, but I also speculate, ask questions and play devil's advocate. I reserve the right to change my mind.

Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old August 27th, 2009, 03:02 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Paul

You bring out a good point in your post. Celebrity apparently denies any knowledge but yet in the original complaint by Dean, the ship had to get in touch with Miami to make a decision. As a retired Police Officer who was Chief of Detectives in my department, I know that if this were the case, this was be documented from the beginning. Someone is not telling you the truth Paul, did they document it or did this incident even occur and to what extent. I guess we will never know.

Good job though Paul..

Don
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old August 30th, 2009, 04:16 PM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,598
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

What I meant is the the public relations person at Celebrity - which is the branch all of us journalists are asked to interface with, was not aware of the situation. I am sure people in Miami were aware of it, however.

It helps to understand a little how cruise lines are organized. The department that deals with all situations like this is called "risk management" which is actually does not paint a very flattering picture of their operations.

Basically, the final decison is not made by customer service people. It is made by people with legal and insurance backgrounds who have the weigh the "risks" of allowing people like Dean to stay onboard. This is a constant criticism of the cruise lines, that a person who encounters a problem like this is interfaced with people who in the long run are charged with looking out for the best interest of the cruise line in terms of possible future lawsuits.

There are no "passenger advocates" in cases like this. I didn't ask Dean, but I am curious if he used a travel agent and if he contacted that travel agent when this all came down.

Personally, if I had used an agent to book this cruise (my agent has a lot of clout with all the cruise lines) I would have had her involved from the first night and calling Miami personally to say "hey, you're not doing this to my client."
__________________
I am the editor, but I also speculate, ask questions and play devil's advocate. I reserve the right to change my mind.

Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old September 2nd, 2009, 11:13 AM
joeyanddavid's Avatar
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
Personally, if I had used an agent to book this cruise (my agent has a lot of clout with all the cruise lines) I would have had her involved from the first night and calling Miami personally to say "hey, you're not doing this to my client."
I would assume as well that you have a tad bit clout yourself.. 8)
__________________
Joey
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old September 3rd, 2009, 09:09 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,772
Default

Don,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I agree with almost everything you say except the parts about the hearings. This is just not practical with the time constraints and where does that end. Are they entitled to lawyers at these hearings as would occur in many locations in the states such as schools, busineesses, etc.
Sorry, no lawyers. I intend that the hearing would be similar to the procedure used at Captain's Mast in the Navy -- the captain summons all of the parties, summarizes the report, asks if any of them have anything to add, and then tells them the consequences of their actions. No lawyers allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
If not would that be a lack of due process.
Not necessarily. There are many procedings in civil life where the courts have maintained that a simple hearing where a person can make his case is sufficient.

Norm.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old September 4th, 2009, 10:22 AM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,076
Default

Norm:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating lawyers. In our society today, it is rare to find a civil proceeding with lawyers. School can't even kick kids out unless they are given full due process but that's a whole other story.

The whole problem with the story in this thread is not having the other side of the story. Perhaps this whole thing was handling properly, we will just never know.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old October 13th, 2009, 01:49 PM
AIS AIS is offline
Junior Member
Passenger
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10
Default

Unfortunately, my experience with people from former Eastern Bloc countries isn't positive. On an All Inclusive 5 star resort in the DR, we found them to be rude, obnoxious, demanding and ill mannered. They butt in line/ cut you off, never an excuse me or anything like that and just unpleasant people to be around – at least that was our experience. Best mannered people are the Americans/Canadians and British
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Noordam and Zuiderdam excellent dchorne Holland America 9 December 29th, 2009 12:16 PM
Excellent review of the Valor REDWITCH 13 Carnival Cruise Lines 0 April 14th, 2008 11:25 AM
Excellent Reference Site canuckity Ask CruiseMates Staff 1 September 10th, 2007 01:25 PM
Excellent article on the Homepage! sue Chit - Chat for Cruisers 7 August 5th, 2005 07:29 PM
Carnival is Excellent Jubster Carnival Cruise Lines 11 June 4th, 2004 05:41 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.
design by: Themes by Design

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1