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-   -   Disabled passenger removed from ship (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/celebrity/381861-disabled-passenger-removed-ship.html)

Trip April 11th, 2011 09:29 PM

Disabled passenger removed from ship
 
As is usually the case..not all the details will be known, but, this story is disturbing nonetheless.

VOICES OF DISABILITY: Cruise line strands disabled senior on island - dailytribune.com

Mike M April 11th, 2011 10:12 PM

OK:

I know there are two sides to this story but my "gut" goes with the cruise line.

Yes, this person booked a suite in order to have more room but he did not book a Handicapped Cabin. A regular cabin, even a suite, is not handicapped accessible. It was said he paid "extra" for a butler to help him. I'm sorry but a butler is not a personal attendant. He "assumed" that the butler would be his personal attendant and help lift him over the threshold to the bathroom and to lift him after falling off the toilet.

The cruise line has a huge liability if they lift people and injure them. They also have a huge liability if this person falls out of their chair or is injured in the cabin and is unable to get help.

I often need assistance on a cruise and I would never dream of not traveling with someone who would be my personal attendant. I personally believe it was very irresponsible of this person to travel alone. BELIEVE me I know what it's like to lose some independence but there are compromises that must be made.

Accommodations need to be made for people with disabilities but the cruise line personnel being the personal attendant is not one of them.

Take care,
Mike

Trip April 11th, 2011 10:15 PM

That part I found odd..who, I wonder, form the crew, was to be his attendant???

robh April 11th, 2011 10:45 PM

Is the issue help or left on an island
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip (Post 1365663)
As is usually the case..not all the details will be known, but, this story is disturbing nonetheless.

VOICES OF DISABILITY: Cruise line strands disabled senior on island - dailytribune.com

Hello Trip,
I agree on the surface this is very disturbing and to me what is the real question of expectations from RCL (Celebrity) by the passenger.

Stranding anybody on a small Island who is disabled by themselves is not right, period. It would have been better to have them taken off on a larger Island like St Maarten or like place and pre-arranged for a direct flight onwards with help by a support care person service by airlines and hotels till he got to his final destination.

My thinking is the cruise line does not offer disabled care service as a cabin service by a butler. I think the tour operator got it all wrong in providing the services he needed.
1) He went by himself without anybody to help if needed as his wife might have been that person or a friend. His monies would have been better spent instead of paying a single fare.

2) It sounds like the cabin was not meant for a wheelchair if it had a lip to move in. Did he request a disabled passengers accessibility cabin.

3) A butler on Celebrity does not provide service to move you or help in the washroom. Their is a not a care givers service. The communication went wrong as to the needs.

I have a friend who needs minor help in moving from a scooter or wheelchair and has canes. He will be on a cruise this year with his wife but they have arranged for a cruise scooter and a cabin designed for people with disabilities.

The mistake was traveling by ones self on a cruise ship expecting help to move about in your cabin, Had your wheelchair got stuck in a hall, they would help, had you fallen out , they would help or a passenger near by but in your cabin you must pay or provide a for someone to be with you not expect the cruise line to help as the staff are not trained for that service.

Could they have kept him on the ship, perhaps but depends on days left and what was going on in his cabin, If it was only the lip to the bathroom, might have provided a little ramp,
I think the issue is the support they gave him to ensure he got home safely and from a better location.

Expectation being by yourself of a ships butler , no , He or she is not your hired care servant as might be at home

My view /Rob

ps: I guess I was writing while Mike was also but I see we both make the same last point

Trip April 12th, 2011 02:43 PM

VOICES OF DISABILITY: Cruise line strands disabled senior on island - theoaklandpress.com

some other info...

Moiraine April 12th, 2011 03:27 PM

I see both points of view. It was a miscommunication that did not end the way the guy wanted.

Trip April 12th, 2011 03:31 PM

I found it interesting the fact it was a nude cruise was omitted from the first article. :confused:

GrannyLorr April 12th, 2011 08:27 PM

Gee we in Oz miss out on a lot! I have never seen a "nude cruise" advertised! rofl

dkjretired April 12th, 2011 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrannyLorr (Post 1365805)
Gee we in Oz miss out on a lot! I have never seen a "nude cruise" advertised! rofl

It was a charter, it wouldn't be advertised by Celebrity but by whoever chartered the ship...

Don

Trip April 12th, 2011 09:52 PM

I could have also said, I find it odd it was mentioned in the 2nd article.;)

robh April 12th, 2011 09:52 PM

Yes they are
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GrannyLorr (Post 1365805)
Gee we in Oz miss out on a lot! I have never seen a "nude cruise" advertised! rofl

Granny
When you check out a ship;s schedule on the cruise line web page and find a missing week then you can expect it to be in dry dock or repositioning or more likely a chartered cruise by a company ( from music , specialty, nudes, alternative life styles et certa) with the cruise lines.
Just ask your TA and they should be able to send the companies names.

Trip April 12th, 2011 09:55 PM

Also, you can do a google search of the ship and date, most likely you will bring up the group cruise being chartered,and, the ta selling space.

robh April 12th, 2011 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip (Post 1365814)
I could have also said, I find it odd it was mentioned in the 2nd article.;)

Sorry, the only ;nude' ref that i saw was a persons comment (9 ) of them
It is was the case I could certainly see the poor Butlers expression when asked to help ( am I paid for this)
On the UK site I am on , one of the reports back was his wife became sick, he decided to travel alone , some passengers helped and refused a private nurse offered to come onboard.
RCL does want to accommodate but not personal needs, you are responsible for
cheers /rob

robh April 13th, 2011 04:04 PM

An update
 
I received an update today from my UK board with a reference back to Cruise Critic . See Link and scroll to item #24

As Tripp knows from experience a bit of that and a bit of this eventually provides the story

Suffice to say, It was a charter cruise (Bare Necessities) and the ship and organizer did offer options onboard once they understood his needs but were refused. It only shows how upfront you must be with what you need before you leave.
Expectations scroll to item #24


This was good to read as you can see people in charge trying to help but to no avail.


l

robh April 16th, 2011 09:17 PM

Update April 15, 2011
 
See a new update from *edited* at April 15, 2011
Update: Disabled Passenger Ordered Off Cruise Speaks Out - Celebrity Cruises
The new item aside from more details is the last item on a legal challenge on the ADA act.
" Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA), |

Quote: "In order to call a cabin "ADA Compliant," it must meet certain ADA Standards for Accessible Design, which aren't mandatory at this time for foreign-flagged vessels like Celebrity Century. "

quote: "There may be a sequel to the story. Bernstein, who said his only initial goal was to get his client's money back via small-scale binding arbitration, told *edited* that he's now so incensed at how Keskey was treated he's going to file a full-fledged lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. over fleetwide ADA compliance issues."

Most of us probably know friends that have disability issues and adjust each day to their changes with us helping as requested but the point is they own their responsibilities and travel accordingly. I truly hope this does not effect the ability for all such folks to travel with us as travelers and friends. We all learn from each other and ensure rights are provided to all.
What might have been a passenger and cruise line joint agreement to benefit all regardless of outcome now looks as if it is headed for an unneeded battle.
Cheers /Rob

Rev22:17 April 19th, 2011 08:37 PM

Rob,

Quote:

Originally Posted by You (Post 1366470)
Quote: "In order to call a cabin "ADA Compliant," it must meet certain ADA Standards for Accessible Design, which aren't mandatory at this time for foreign-flagged vessels like Celebrity Century."

The salient point in this incident is that Celebrity never advertised the suite that the passenger booked to be "ADA Compliant."

Quote:

Originally Posted by You
quote: "There may be a sequel to the story. Bernstein, who said his only initial goal was to get his client's money back via small-scale binding arbitration, told *edited* that he's now so incensed at how Keskey was treated he's going to file a full-fledged lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. over fleetwide ADA compliance issues."

This lawyer is going to have a tough case because the passenger, who obviously needed an ADA compliant cabin, did not book one.

If the passenger used a travel agency, though, there may be a good case against the travel agent and the agency for booking the passenger in a cabin that obviously did not meet the passenger's need.

Norm.

robh April 19th, 2011 09:06 PM

In Agreement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev22:17 (Post 1366973)
Rob,



The salient point in this incident is that Celebrity never advertised the suite that the passenger booked to be "ADA Compliant."



This lawyer is going to have a tough case because the passenger, who obviously needed an ADA compliant cabin, did not book one.

If the passenger used a travel agency, though, there may be a good case against the travel agent and the agency for booking the passenger in a cabin that obviously did not meet the passenger's need.

Norm.

Hi Rev ..
The two quotes I posted were extracts from the news article itself to show what were the new items in this case from the original news articles.
See: Update: Disabled Passenger Ordered Off Cruise Speaks Out - Celebrity Cruises

I agree with you fully, even if Celebrity elected to be 100% in compliance, it is still a foreign registered vessel and changes can only occur when a major dry dock upgrade is scheduled.

Yes, he did not ask, he asked for a large cabin with butler thinking this would do the trick as he has managed to work his way via hotels that way.

He used the service of the charted tour group but did not tell them of his needs , now so evident. In the article the Tour Group organizer indicates that in no way were they advised of his unique need and they were surpirsed themselves.
Best to read the article.

As I said earlier, " What might have been a passenger and cruise line joint agreement to benefit all regardless of outcome now looks as if it is headed for an unneeded battle." :(

thanks:)

LizandPhil April 19th, 2011 09:35 PM

Am I the only one that finds it strange he went home to his WIFE?
Where was she doing this whole thing?

robh April 19th, 2011 11:45 PM

Sick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LizandPhil (Post 1366995)
Am I the only one that finds it strange he went home to his WIFE?
Where was she doing this whole thing?

Per the news article she was sick at the last moment prior to the trip and he elected to continue his cruise.

Start of Quote: (from the link in my prior note)
(as in tour organizer) Quote: ""noted that it was her understanding that Keskeny's wife, Nancy, was supposed to be on the cruise, but became ill at the last minute. "Had I known ahead of time what was going on, I would have told him not to come alone." End of quote..

robh May 8th, 2011 03:49 PM

Celebrity Refunds Passage and expenses
 
An update from my cruises dot site today May 8, 2011
http://www.cruises.co.uk/1061-disabled_cruising/18651-expectations-7.html#post250607

Quote: " an ABC Michigan affiliate, broke the news Thursday evening that James Keskeny, a 66-year-old from Pinckney, Michigan, would be refunded his cruise fare as well as the out-of-pocket travel expenses he incurred to get home from Guadeloupe, where he was debarked on February 18. Celebrity said that the debarkation was necessary because Keskeny, who has multiple sclerosis and is confined to a wheelchair, needed help getting into and out of bed and using the bathroom (where he suffered a fall) -- "special assistance above and beyond what is provided to our disabled or wheelchair-bound guests." When given the option of hiring a private duty nurse or debarking the ship, he chose to debark.

Keskeny previously said that he spent around $4,000 for an accessible Sky Suite on Celebrity Century during a Bare Necessities Tour & Travel nude charter sailing to the Southern Caribbean.

Keskeny's attorney, Richard Bernstein, told the Detroit-area news outlet the Royal Oak Daily Tribune that the refund amounted to $5,636.26. Celebrity spokeswoman Cynthia Martinez, however, told Cruise Critic the "exact amount of the refund is still being verified since Keskeny paid his cruise fare directly to the charter company." Although in a phone conversation with Cruise Critic, Bernstein could not verify the exact amount, he told us that the cruise line had refunded his client for the cruise fare, airfare and some travel-related incidentals, and that as far as he was concerned, the refund was what he was looking for and that part of the case is closed.

In addition to the recompense, Martinez reported that Celebrity has agreed to a one-time meeting with Keskeny, his lawyer and his ADA consultant to let Keskeny explain his concerns directly to company personnel. The effort is "being undertaken to determine whether improvements are possible to any of our previously existing processes to provide assistance to special needs guests," she said. Martinez noted in mid-April that Keskeny's suite was fully ADA compliant, as advertised. Bernstein disputed the claim, telling Cruise Critic that a site inspection will be necessary.

Martinez added that Celebrity is not admitting any fault regarding Keskeny. "We are satisfied this matter is resolved and we remain committed to providing an accessible cruise vacation to our guests with special needs."

Bernstein stresses that his team is going into the meeting with a positive attitude, hoping to work together with the cruise line in good faith to make sure that the total cruise experience is ADA compliant so that future disabled passengers can cruise with ease. However, if Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. demonstrates that its ships are not compliant and refuses to work toward making them compliant, Bernstein does reserve the right to file a lawsuit over fleetwide compliance issues. The goal of such a suit would be to force the cruise line to adhere to the ADA's legal requirements, rather than to award his client more financial gains. " end of quote.

I underlined the two points in a refund was the first desire and settled but the second point is a potential suit about ADA's guidelines being met.
It is importamt to note that Celebrity is not admitting any fault and has offered to meet to discuss ADA guidelines.

Manuel May 9th, 2011 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LizandPhil (Post 1366995)
Am I the only one that finds it strange he went home to his WIFE?
Where was she doing this whole thing?

I find that very strange as well. I would not go on a cruise without my wife.

TM

robh May 9th, 2011 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manuel (Post 1370309)
I find that very strange as well. I would not go on a cruise without my wife.

TM

Manuel
On the actual question I did post a reply in the thread;
Quote; "Per the news article she was sick at the last moment prior to the trip and he elected to continue his cruise.

Start of reported Quote: (from the link in my prior note)
(as in tour organizer) Quote: ""noted that it was her understanding that Keskeny's wife, Nancy, was supposed to be on the cruise, but became ill at the last minute. "Had I known ahead of time what was going on, I would have told him not to come alone." End of quote..

I'm not sure if your wife would let you cruise without her and would wonder who you had in your cabin if you did.rofl

Fieldmouse May 11th, 2011 04:57 PM

Just my two-cents. I use a wheelchair...and my husband and I are semi-frequent cruisers...we don't expect ANYONE to be responsible for my care other than myself, my husband, another family member or a hired assistant/nurse. We are well aware of my limitations and it would be ridiculous for us to expect anyone who is not related or paid by us, to assume responsibility for my health and well being . What Mr. Keskeny did was to put Celebrity in truly a no-win situation.

If Celebrity did assigned someone OTHER than a qualified nurse or nurse-aid to help Mr. Keskeny, they are opening themselves to being sued also by the employee, if that employee is injured trying to lift or move Mr. Keskeny. They could sue, saying when hired they were not trained to provide that type of service and it was not part of their job description. Then let's say something happened and the helpful employee dropped, injured or in some other way did not gave proper care, than the passenger/patient could and would , don't kid yourself, sue Celebrity for not providing someone qualified.

Really...this is another case of someone not wanting to assume responsibility for themselves.

Kuki May 11th, 2011 05:40 PM

The reporting on this situation ,only on odd occassion mentions, that while onbobard, Celebrity did offer Mr. Keskeny the choice of hiring (and paying for) a personal aid for the duration of the cruise. He declined, and that's when he was put off the ship.

Sorry.. imho they got duped.

momofmeg July 8th, 2011 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuki (Post 1370560)
The reporting on this situation ,only on odd occassion mentions, that while onbobard, Celebrity did offer Mr. Keskeny the choice of hiring (and paying for) a personal aid for the duration of the cruise. He declined, and that's when he was put off the ship.

Sorry.. imho they got duped.

It is hard to believe that someone would think a butler's services would include nurse's aide. I am with Celebrity on this one-I guess they will add in their contracts a clause that says butlers do not do the services of a nurse aide.

As the previous poster mentioned, you can be liable if a person is hurt. Many years ago, I helped out a neighbor of an elderly friend (who lived in an old folks community) a few times, as my friend was very concerned about this woman. She should have been in a nursing home-completely bedridden and only had a nurse coming 3 days a week. She refused to go to a nursing home-because she said they would take all her money-it seemed she was worth a bit-and she wanted her nepehw to inherit what she had. She had no children and was 86-does that make good sense?

After she compalined that I heated her food too much and that she burnt her mouth, that was it. (she was a bit crotchety)I did not want her suing me. It is a shame today, you have to weigh doing a kindness against the possibility of getting sued.

watchurdiet July 8th, 2011 03:06 PM

Sorry to say... but this makes a person not want to help another person out... at all!! ; (


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