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-   -   Disgraceful Treatment by Ignorant staff (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/celebrity/400173-disgraceful-treatment-ignorant-staff.html)

Paul Motter December 10th, 2013 01:35 PM

Disgraceful Treatment by Ignorant staff
 
They're talking about it everywhere... might as well talk about it were, too...

The quote above comes from the reporter's lead statement in the video report.

Celebrity Cruises Kicks Elderly Couple Off Millennium Cruise Ship : Cruise Law News

A newspaper article published on Thursday discussing how Miami-based Celebrity sent an elderly couple packing from the Millennium cruise ship a month ago.

The Cairns Post reports on the disturbing story of Celebrity kicking 78 year old cruise passenger Adry Arnold and her husband off the cruise ship while it was docked at Yorkeys Knob, Queensland, Australia.

The Arnolds were enjoying their vacation cruise. Mr. Arnold went to visit nearby Cairns. While alone on the ship, Ms. Arnold apparently had difficulty locating her her cabin. She became upset and began to Celebrity Millinnium Cruise Shipcry.

The newspaper states that when Mr. Arnold returned to the cruise ship, he was not allowed back on the ship. Celebrity allegedly told them that their cruise was over "because the doctor did not think they were the kind of people who should be on the cruise ... if she was left alone." The article suggests that Ms. Arnold may have had dementia and that's why Celebrity sent them involuntarily from the ship.

The Arnolds are pensioners and paid over $12,000 for the cruise.
The couple's nephew told the newspaper "this is a disgusting way to treat anybody, let alone an elderly couple, without even trying to resolve the issue at hand."

The Celebrity passenger ticket drafted by the cruise line's defense lawyers states that the cruise line can disembark passengers for any reason. However, from a public relations point of view, I would think that the couple should have been provided with a full refund rather than left behind at a port with no transportation back home.

Celebrity said that it would provide a "pro-rata refund" for the remaining nine days of their sailing. But as of the time of the newspaper article, Celebrity had not issued the refund.

A mean corporation versus a nice, elderly couple? Should the husband have stayed with his wife? Should the cruise line have treated the retirees nicer including getting them safely home?

Donna December 10th, 2013 01:38 PM

It still seems like there are parts of the story we are not hearing...Even so, I think it should of been handled differently, especially considering their ages and so far from home....Hopefully we'll hear the "other" side of things.

Paul Motter December 10th, 2013 01:45 PM

For the other side of the story, Celebrity commented to Travel Weekly today....

Elderly, disoriented passenger forced to disembark Celebrity ship
By Tom Stieghorst

A 78-year old passenger was disembarked early from the Celebrity Millennium in Cairns, Australia, after she was found alone and disoriented in her cabin.

The cruise line said it took the step because was it concerned for the safety and well-being of the woman, identified as Adry Arnold.

Arnold’s husband was on a shore excursion at the time and couldn’t be reached.

In a statement, Celebrity said it carries thousands of guests every year with pre-existing medical conditions. "However, for their own safety and the safety of others, these guests must be able to care for themselves,” the statement said.

Arnold’s nephew criticized Celebrity, saying its response was “a disgusting way to treat anybody, let alone an elderly couple,” according to a report in the Cairns Post.

Cynthia Martinez, a spokewoman for Celebrity parent company Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd., said a member of its care team arranged transport to a local hospital for the couple, and that they would get a prorated refund for the unused part of their nine-day cruise.

She said a care team member contacted the Arnold's at the hospital, but that they requested no further contact be made.

Trip December 10th, 2013 05:27 PM

I read about this and I personally think it was mishandled. It's hard for a spouse with a partner dealing with dementia to sometimes see the forest for the trees. I saw the video, and he says she had always done things by rote, so, he was not worried. Things change, and this change took place onboard a ship. I don't think he should have chosen a cruise, but... with that being said.

The way to deal this delicate matter was mishandled. The husband should have been allowed to come onboard, and ,the situation and disembarkment procedure discussed, with a full understanding of what was about to take place. The newscaster in the video was the one that told him of his refund that Celebrity offered. Had this all taken place prior, he may have had a better understanding of the reason for them leaving and not refused further contact with the representitive.

Think about if these people were your parents, or grandparents, and how upset they would be...I also woner how close the ship was, to leaving port....that might explain the haste.

Paul Motter December 10th, 2013 05:46 PM

Here is what I think...

1) we still really only have the passengers side of the story. Why do I say this? Because outside of a court of law the cruise line would be crazy to say anything "negative" about the couple right now. It would only make them look worse. The cruise lines now know that in the current environment they can never win a PR battle - especially with people with medical challenges.

2) The cruise line talked to the woman's son before the husband returned, who said "My mom has dementia." They probably learned more than enough to justify putting them off the ship based on that talk. I do understand that dementia comes on stages and giving the husband the complete benefit of the doubt I could say "he didn't realize how badly she would react to not knowing where he was."

But on the other hand - if the son knew, and the cruise line talked to her and made their own determination (It does not take long to determine whether a dementia patient is at stage 1 or stage 10), they apparently decided the husband was very wrong to do what he did even one time - which means he is a "bad actor" and they didn't feel comfortable giving him a second chance.

Maybe he was hoping she might disappear on that cruise.

Also bad for the husband, in THIS country in such a situation there is a good chance the gov't will step in and mandate that he put her in a full-time care facility, that she cannot live at home anymore. Then he wouldn't be able to afford any more cruises. They may have done him a favor.

But the bottom line is that cruise lines are NOT adult baby sitters, even for people with dementia or Alzheimer. It is not their responsibility. He should not have made it their responsibility (which he admitted he did right in the interview).

Trip December 10th, 2013 06:02 PM

I absolutely agree, this couple should not have been onboard a ship, given her condition. The liability of what could have happened is frightening.

My concern is how the process of removing them, from the ship, was handled. The will receive 75 % back,and that is a good thing.

Dave Beers December 10th, 2013 07:25 PM

Well, the video on the Cruise Law website looks like it was produced by TMZ or some other tabloid site. I loved the stock footage of some couple standing on the pier. It added so much realism!

I've dealt with dementia in my family. From my perspective, the husband in this story was very cavalier in his approach. The rote memory excuse - and it is an excuse - is especially egregious.

dkjretired December 11th, 2013 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Motter (Post 1491027)
Here is what I think...

1) we still really only have the passengers side of the story. Why do I say this? Because outside of a court of law the cruise line would be crazy to say anything "negative" about the couple right now. It would only make them look worse. The cruise lines now know that in the current environment they can never win a PR battle - especially with people with medical challenges.

2) The cruise line talked to the woman's son before the husband returned, who said "My mom has dementia." They probably learned more than enough to justify putting them off the ship based on that talk. I do understand that dementia comes on stages and giving the husband the complete benefit of the doubt I could say "he didn't realize how badly she would react to not knowing where he was."

But on the other hand - if the son knew, and the cruise line talked to her and made their own determination (It does not take long to determine whether a dementia patient is at stage 1 or stage 10), they apparently decided the husband was very wrong to do what he did even one time - which means he is a "bad actor" and they didn't feel comfortable giving him a second chance.

Maybe he was hoping she might disappear on that cruise.

Also bad for the husband, in THIS country in such a situation there is a good chance the gov't will step in and mandate that he put her in a full-time care facility, that she cannot live at home anymore. Then he wouldn't be able to afford any more cruises. They may have done him a favor.

But the bottom line is that cruise lines are NOT adult baby sitters, even for people with dementia or Alzheimer. It is not their responsibility. He should not have made it their responsibility (which he admitted he did right in the interview).

Paul:

Great points you make and as others have said we don't have the full story from the cruise line. This appears to be one of those cases which proves the old adage in the news media, "if it bleeds, it leads." I think Celebrity gave a good statement which doesn't explain the whole situation but gives their side to a point.

This was on Celebrity's facebook page.

"In response to the report on Today Tonight we sincerely believe we have done our best for Mr and Mrs Arnold. We were very concerned about Mrs Arnold’s wellbeing. She was found upset and disorientated. She was alone and she was travelling in a cabin with a balcony. Our medical team and our Care Team did everything they could to help Mrs Arnold. They could not reach Mr Arnold who was not on the ship. We transferred her to hospital and our Care Team followed up with Mr Arnold. We are providing a refund for the remainder of their holiday with us. We are sorry their cruise holiday ended this way but we believe we acted in the best interests of Mrs Arnold."

I think we all feel for these people as we have all gone through this, I did with my mother but we have to look at this from Celebrity's point also. They had to deal with the situation, bad press exploiting the story and they can't say a lot probably on advice of their attorneys.

Donna December 11th, 2013 08:21 AM

My main question, is why would Mr. Arnold leave her alone on the ship knowing her condition?? We may never find out all the details....

felix_the_cat December 11th, 2013 02:29 PM

I believe Celebrity did what they had to for the safety of the passenger. The husband should have been with her or taken her with him. He was 150% in the wrong.


I have worked in a nursing home. I am well aware of the issues of someone with dementia. There really was nothing to discuss. By his own admission, he had left her onboard at each port. If he didn't know what he was doing, the son should have before they left home.


The cruiseline saw to her being taken to a hospital and that's where their responsibility should end. Yes, they tried to follow up but the husband refused them. Once again, husband's fault.


Someone with early dementia can still do a lot and cruising is among those things, however it is up to the family to see that all safe-guards are in place - not the cruiseline.


What would have happened had she just left the ship of her own accord? Then who would have been responsible.


The problem these days, too many feel that cruiselines, airlines, resorts, hotels etc. should take on responsibility that has nothing to do with their business.


There was no reason to refund total cruise fare. I think they were generous to refund the balance.


What will be the result of this? Are elderly cruisers going to have to prove they are of sound mind????


This man was very selfish. He did nothing for his wife.. If it was important to take her on a cruise, why did he leave her alone on the ship while he took off himself.

BernieG December 11th, 2013 04:52 PM

Isn't the title of this thread a little over the top considering you hadn't heard both sides?

Paul Motter December 11th, 2013 05:23 PM

Bernie - as I say in the first post - those were the words used in the Video story about this incident. The one on the cruiselaw web site that David says looks like it is from TMZ.

Australians...

You know, all the cruise lines rushed to put ships down under a few years ago when the ozzie was about $1.40 (vs USD) - but now it has slipped to par value again, and they have all those ships to fill with cheap Australians.

I guess that sounds a little biased - but ask a crew member who the cheapest people in the world are... Australians. They do not even believe in tipping.

Plus they are pretty well known for being drunk and rowdy a lot of the time.

(insert the usual disclaimers here - I am just sayin' what I have heard).

Dave Beers December 11th, 2013 06:18 PM

(with the usual exceptions, yada yada yada)

I talk to the bar staff on cruises quite often. Just as on land, the bartenders have a good take on the people they are serving.

The ship's bartenders make very few mixed drinks (the expensive stuff) when working on the Australian cruises. The men tend to stick with beer - lots of it, almost constantly - and the women are wine drinkers. Thus the bartender's jobs are quite easy - popping tops, pulling corks, and making sure they have enough cases of beer on standby. Oh, and no self-respecting Aussie drinks Foster's. It is their equivalent of Old Milwaukee. I heard that more than once.

The innocent bystander hearing this story would think Celebrity rolled the woman off the ship and dumped their luggage in the bay, and when the husband showed up they hustled him off the pier with the bum's rush.

I'm now wondering if the husband has a problem accepting the reality of his wife's situation and is in a very pronounced stage of denial.

felix_the_cat December 11th, 2013 06:47 PM

Aww come on guys. Aussies are not used to tipping. They pay their service staff a decent wage and tips are not necessary or expected. It's hard for them to realize life onboard a ship based on American traditions is different.


Obviously the husband and son are looking for a bigger "reward" from Celebrity. We see that all the time. Will they get it - probably, but their days of cruising are long over. None of the other lines will take them either.

Kuki December 11th, 2013 07:30 PM

I'll respond by telling a personal story about dementia. My mother has dementia. At times she can still seem very sweet and at least seem fairly lucid. At other times she can become extremely aggressive, as well as confused.

She lives at home with caregivers 24/7 who have been with her several years now.

A couple months ago she became very aggressive with her regular caregiver, and yelled at her to get out of the house. The caregiver of course would not leave her alone.

My mother then walked out of the house. She walked about 3 or 4 blocks ( the caregiver followed her to make sure of her safety). My mother then knocked on the door of a house, they took her in, and the caregiver called me... 10 minutes away).

When I arrived my mother was totally distraught , and irrational. I couldn't get her to come with me and go home.

The only solution I could come up with was to call 911 for medical assistance.

The paramedics arrived, examined her, and told her that her only options were to be taken to the hospital or go home. Thankfully she was lucid enough to know she didn't want to go to the hospital....and finally went home, and eventually settled down.


My point is with this disease things can go from fine to mayhem pretty quickly. And sometimes there are no easy solutions. You try and create solutions as situations arise... As best you can.

Certainly the husband's actions were a contributing factor, and I do feel bad for the cruise line , getting stuck with the public relations mess that resulted.

No story will tell us how severe her actions got. Their only other option may have been to restrain her until her husband returned.... And there was no guarantee no other incident would occur if they remained on the ship.

As someone who lives with this stuff on an ongoing basis, I for one understand the cruise line's actions.

Btw - we keep her in here home because of medical advice that the familiarity of her home is good for her, and placing her in a facility would most assuredly shorten her life. So the unfamiliarity of a cruise ship, and leaving her alone on it would not be an option I would ever consider.

Paul Motter December 11th, 2013 10:04 PM

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. There are LAWS regarding the ethical treatment of elderly people with dementia and is the legal responsibility of the family to follow them.

In this state AZ (as I said) if these kinds of incidents occur even once the state can step in say "you MUST put her in a 24-hour care facility" and then you don't have any choice, you have to do it and pay for it.

It could even happen to you. Mo, now that she is here.

The cruise line is "the law" on a ship, and dementia is not a harmless condition - it is taken very seriously by the people who understand it. Old coots like this guy are shirking their responsibilities and/or in denial about the real situation.

Manuel December 11th, 2013 10:11 PM

Paul, the title of this article was a bit rash.

I agree with Kuki's statements because I am also familiar with dementia my Mother also has dementia and my MIL also had it.

It can be very difficult to deal with people who suffer from it.

TM

Kuki December 12th, 2013 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Motter (Post 1491111)

In this state AZ (as I said) if these kinds of incidents occur even once the state can step in say "you MUST put her in a 24-hour care facility" and then you don't have any choice, you have to do it and pay for it.

It could even happen to you. Mo, now that she is here.

The cruise line is "the law" on a ship, and dementia is not a harmless condition - it is taken very seriously by the people who understand it. Old coots like this guy are shirking their responsibilities and/or in denial about the real situation.

Paul, it wouldn't likely apply to my mother. She isn't here yet ( maybe she will be by the end of the month if she remains stable). But since she is also a Canadian citizen, she is only allowed to visit the United States for 180 days max.

I'd guess if there was a problem she would be forced to leave the country immediately......kicked off the U.S. Ship:D

felix_the_cat December 12th, 2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuki (Post 1491143)
Paul, it wouldn't likely apply to my mother. She isn't here yet ( maybe she will be by the end of the month if she remains stable). But since she is also a Canadian citizen, she is only allowed to visit the United States for 180 days max.

I'd guess if there was a problem she would be forced to leave the country immediately......kicked off the U.S. Ship:D



What province Kuki? And yes, she would be deported. They would put out the order as stated by Paul until you could move her back up here.


In Canada (I may qualify that a bit and say Ontario) they still can't force someone into a facility. The law is such that no matter what medical treatment you may need, you cannot force it. In your mother's case, it would actually have to be taken to court and a court order issued before anything could be done. However if she/he is a clear danger to themselves or others, there is a 72 hour hold that will have the person committed to hospital. But then they need a court order.

momofmeg January 17th, 2014 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix_the_cat (Post 1491145)
What province Kuki? And yes, she would be deported. They would put out the order as stated by Paul until you could move her back up here.


In Canada (I may qualify that a bit and say Ontario) they still can't force someone into a facility. The law is such that no matter what medical treatment you may need, you cannot force it. In your mother's case, it would actually have to be taken to court and a court order issued before anything could be done. However if she/he is a clear danger to themselves or others, there is a 72 hour hold that will have the person committed to hospital. But then they need a court order.

And that is to protect the person with dementia's rights too as too many would be ready to shuffle off a relative before they should be. I know 35 years ago my dad had early Alzheimers, diagnosed at the age of 56 or 57. He was home at first and suddenly got much worse when my sisters took him on a road trip to visit our grandmother, his mother. He had also developed a bladder infection so he had both physical issues and much worse dementia. He had to be flown home and was taken to the veteran hospital as he was a World war II vet.

It was recommended that he stay there in their nursing home/assisted care area but my foolish mom thought it could not have permanently worsened that much that quickly. well she was wrong and Georgia US law took my brother and I both signing into a state facility to be evaluated for a month before he could be put back in assisted care.

It was horrible having to sign him into that place as they treated him like an animal at the Georgia Regional hospital unlike the VA home but I had no choice as my mother could not bear to do it. One of my sisters was only 17 and the other lived 4 hours away and had returned home so my brother and I had to do it. It seemed it meant nothing that the VA hospital had evaluated he was mentally ill enough that he needed to stay there permanently. Georgia law required he be reevaluated.

And you know in his few lucid moments he liked the VA home. He thought he was back in the army. He had spent over 20 years in the military and another 15 in civil service so that was really the best place for him as he was content there.

This is what the VA doctors told us. His being in an unfamiliar place and getting physically sick was too much for him. The doctors told us we should have never taken him on a road trip .

so really perhaps that man should not have taken his wife on a cruise as people with dementia need familiarity to be comfortable. But perhaps this man did not know that. We didn't. We thought dad visiting his mom would be good for him. we were not told until after the fact that we should not have.

I feel when you have a family member with dementia, even mild dementia, that there should be at least 2 family members with them so that they are never left on their own in an unfamiliar place. Knowing what I know from our experience(hindsight I admit) that it is just asking for trouble.

A person with beginning dementia may be okay to be left at home for a bit while you run to the store, etc. but not somewhere they are unfamiliar.

Manuel January 17th, 2014 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momofmeg (Post 1493268)
.

A person with beginning dementia may be okay to be left at home for a bit while you run to the store, etc. but not somewhere they are unfamiliar.


That is exactly the reality of a person with Dementia.


In my Mother's case, she would get extremely confused when you took her away from her everyday surroundings.


TM

momofmeg January 20th, 2014 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manuel (Post 1493280)
That is exactly the reality of a person with Dementia.


In my Mother's case, she would get extremely confused when you took her away from her everyday surroundings.


TM

So a cruise is not the best place unless you are willing to watch them 24/7 I would think. On our last cruise we ate dinner with a couple one night (we did not do assigned seating)that the woman had dementia. She was very sweet but said very little. I saw that her husband took very good care of her.

She was also young to have dementia. She was no more than mid sixties. We saw them later at the San Diego zoo. (California coastal cruise) He had her in a wheelchair and was pushing her around. I am sure that made it easier for him to keep up with her. Anyway, he did not skip excursions he just took her with him, even if that meant wheeling her in a wheel chair. He was a good husband to her.

Moiraine January 20th, 2014 06:31 PM

Exactly, momofmeg. He was responsible with her. The other guy took his wife and dumped her off and did what he wanted to. I was my dad's caretaker for his last 14 or 15 months of his life. Unless he was in bed I pretty much had to be where he could see me at all times or he'd freak out. That man was going on a cruise for himself and not for her.

momofmeg January 21st, 2014 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moiraine (Post 1493501)
Exactly, momofmeg. He was responsible with her. The other guy took his wife and dumped her off and did what he wanted to. I was my dad's caretaker for his last 14 or 15 months of his life. Unless he was in bed I pretty much had to be where he could see me at all times or he'd freak out. That man was going on a cruise for himself and not for her.

I could not live with myself if I had treated my husband or parent that way.

However, he could have been in denial. My mom sure was about my dad. No excuse though as that is when adult children step in and do what is necessary. His children were negligent too as they knew their mother had dementia.

Moiraine January 21st, 2014 08:16 PM

My brother was in denial about my dad right up until my mother could no longer take care of him. He'd get mad at her and say she was making stuff up. He's always been that type. He did not believe I was ill with a very bad illness until I was diagnosed. He wasn't real helpful with dad and he's not at all helpful now that I have mom. Must be nice to stick your head in the sand.

rollerdonna January 22nd, 2014 08:30 AM

This is a sad story all around. Obviously the woman should never have been left alone, but that being said, perhaps the husband was either not as aware as he should have been, or in denial as to the gravity of her dementia.
This however does not excuse their treatment by the cruise line. Husband should have been allowed back onboard to discuss the matter and details of the plan. My heart goes out to this poor confused woman who would have been even further traumatized by being so quickly and unexpectedly removed from the ship. Could have been handled better IMHO.


donna

momofmeg January 22nd, 2014 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rollerdonna (Post 1493605)
This is a sad story all around. Obviously the woman should never have been left alone, but that being said, perhaps the husband was either not as aware as he should have been, or in denial as to the gravity of her dementia.
This however does not excuse their treatment by the cruise line. Husband should have been allowed back onboard to discuss the matter and details of the plan. My heart goes out to this poor confused woman who would have been even further traumatized by being so quickly and unexpectedly removed from the ship. Could have been handled better IMHO.


donna

Yes, I am sure they could have been treated better but still the family was negligent.

I read a thread about a year or so ago where a disabled man took a cruise on RCI alone. He could not even dress himself or take himself to the bathroom. He thought because he booked a suite that the butler would care for him.

He was put off ship at the first port and because of that won a lawsuit.

Now how could that have been taken of care better? I have only been in a suite once, but it did not take me long to realize the butler takes care of more than one suite, and of course we all know their job is not caregiver also.

with more and more people doing stupid things like this do you think cruise lines need to handle such things differently. Perhaps they should have it in the fine print that they will bring in a caregiver but you will be charged $$$? Or they will escort you to airport and put you on a plane for home but you will be charged $$$?


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