CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums

CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums (
-   Chit - Chat for Cruisers (
-   -   Long down load but worth it (

Y2C August 5th, 2003 01:05 AM

Long down load but worth it
The following can be a long load process but worth it. If you do not have cable or DSL be patient.

It touched my heart.

skeptical August 5th, 2003 01:42 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
If they are thanking the women of the military, why are no women pictured other than as damsels in distress. This is a very bias piece of propoganda. Where was the funding for this attained? Makes me wonder????

Seahunks August 5th, 2003 05:12 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Skeptical, you're a Democrat, aren't you? Isn't that precious!

Darned right it was biased! It's about our fighting force--the best in the world! It's about the folks, male and female, who gave and continue to give you the right to be picayune.

If you noticed, none of the photo subjects were obviously American Indian, or Pacific Asian either, that I noticed. Neither were there any Polynesians. The absence of any particular group from a photo montage does not mean they are not appreciated. Maybe no pictures of sufficient quality were available for inclusion in the slideshow.

Personally, I think it was a very touching tribute. Thanks, Steve, for posting the link.

Steve Until Enchantment. Until Inspiration
Sensation 2/03

Post Edited (08-05-03 07:42)

salem August 5th, 2003 05:52 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Makes me so proud to be a AMERICAN!!!
My husband, father, father in law and grandfather were in the military. So hats off to them all!!

Mary Margaret

cap'nkruzer August 5th, 2003 07:26 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Y2C...Thanks for the reminder...Great.

Phyllbo August 5th, 2003 08:13 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it

Thanks for posting this. It was beautiful, thoughtful and well done. We need to honor those who serve and die for us and others, and to be constantly reminded of the cost of freedom.


skeptical August 5th, 2003 10:11 AM

Re: Long download but worth it
I'm a bit confused... Is this supposed to be a political forum? I thought it was a travel website. Are propoganda links for all points of view allowed here? Are DEMOCRATS not allowed to respond with their thoughts and feelings? That doesn't sound like "AMERICA" to me.

I was offended by the total lack of women represented in this piece. The only women were in rolls showing dependence and weakness and , mourning over their lost man. I was also upset by the fact that very few people of color were presented in heroic roles, yet a huge percentage of the U.S. fighting force is hispanic, black, etc.

Actually I am not a Democrat or a Republican. I consider myself an independent on most issues. I just think this piece is not representative of the real fighting forces in the U.S. and that is wrong.

I also think right-wing politics should be discussed on a different forum. Remember that some cruise mates do not live in the U.S. and they may have very different opinions about this recent war and the U.S. memory of world history.

Harry Martin August 5th, 2003 10:17 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Amen, Skeptical -- this has been a point of contention for me, too, in the past. And frankly, the Democrat comment earlier was nothing but offensive.

Can we keep somewhat out of the controversial topics, as most polite people would do when having dinner with others?


mbuckellew August 5th, 2003 10:47 AM

Re: Re: Long down load but worth it
Can we keep somewhat out of the controversial topics, as most polite people would do when having dinner with others?

I agree, Harry, I've been saying this for a while.

However, I don't think there was anything controversial about this tribute. Whether you agree with the reasons they are there or not, I think every American (and our many allies who have troops keeping the peace around the world) should support the troops. They're just regular people like you and me, out there doing a job that could lead to their deaths.

And while it's true that this tribute didn't show any female troops or many minorities, I think the overall message behind it is very important and moving. Thanks, Steve, for posting this tribute.

Michelle B.

Post Edited (08-05-03 10:54)

Harry Martin August 5th, 2003 11:04 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
You're wonderfully diplomatic, Michelle. :-) I really appreciate that.

However, in this instance, the phrase "supporting our troops" has become a blanket under which has fallen the tacit approval of a foreign policy measure for which I was never in favor.

Certainly I admire anyone serving their country. I just wish it would more accurately reflect those who are part of the military, and, more important, not cannonize a U.S.-led invasion for which the U.N. did not support.

I certainly hope I matched the diplomacy you offered, too.


mbuckellew August 5th, 2003 11:12 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Very diplomatically put, Harry, and a good point about supporting the troops not necessarily supporting the policy. Even though I disagree with your viewpoint on the conflict, I agree that too many people are using "support the troops" as "support the war" when not everyone feels that way. That's dangerous, as it can lead to people equating the troops with the war and thus treating them shamefully, as happened in Vietnam.

I also disagree that this tribute was a "canonization" of the present conflict. While it contained many images from today, it also contained many images from past wars and emphasized that as our servicemen and women have been there to serve their country throughout the years, we should be there for them.

Michelle B.

Post Edited (08-05-03 11:17)

Harry Martin August 5th, 2003 11:33 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
>While it contained many images from today, it also contained many images from past >wars and emphasized that as our servicemen and women have been there to serve >their country throughout the years, we should be there for them.

Point well taken, acknowledged and agreed.



Chuck Palm August 5th, 2003 11:44 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Well put Harry!

This war was based upon lies to the American people from a president who said "I will never lie to you." Go figure!

The fact is there is no coalition of countries fighting this war. There are two countries that are losing soldiers every day. (No others!) The other "coalition" members are a facade, and nothing more. Isn't that a lie in an of itself?

A huge plurality of those dying are black and hispanic and yes women too. They should have been more equally represented on this slide show if it were to have any credibility. If no pictures of women or people of color exist, that speaks volumes about the U.S. media. But that is another story. I'm sure if the people making this slide show wanted to present women and minorities in a favorable light, they could have. The format of this slide show costed a few bucks. Somebody paid for it and it was not done in some garage or the basement of some poor black soldier's family. That is for sure! They could have attained any photos they might have needed.

And yes Harry there is no U.N. concensus on this issue to date. And that was a huge mistake on the part of the Bush administration. Everyone knows that the Iraqi leadership has been questionable, but the U.S. world credibility is suffering because of the lies. The more our world credibility is in question, the more frequently terrorism and violence against our country will occur.

Many people on this forum are world travelers and they and I have seen in person how Americans are thought of in many parts of the world today.. Our country is losing, not gaining respect worldwide. Isn't it a shame that more and more ports of call are becoming unfriendly to U.S. citizens. Just a few years ago I was able to visit Cartagena by cruise ship and now it is nearly impossible. Why??? Ocho Rios and Montego bay are becoming problematic as well, and there are many others.

Perhaps we have to make some improvements at home before we start telling the rest of world how to live. Perhaps we need to use truth and honesty to build real U.N. sponsored coalitions that will gain world respect for the good deeds well done. I'm a firm believer in the "Sweep Your Own Doorstep" principles. If the U.S. sets a strong example, other nations will follow.

And yes I am a Democrat and a good American. Go figure! (And I'm proud of it!)

Myles August 5th, 2003 01:30 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
I wouldn't worry about it too much. When nobody has a job except our leaders, we'll send them packing. I'm an exmilitary guy and these folks have to obey their commander in chief or be subject to court martial. Hey, it's tough out there. I dropped more than my share of bombs over Vietnam, but I had no choice. Sure, I know that every bomb dropped finds collateral targets in the form of innocent men, women, and children as well as the intended target. Sometimes the collateral damage was our own troops. But the folks that send us there know that too. They're just insulated from the horror by plush offices and celebrity status. But we all have to live with it and someday we'll have to answer for it. I can only hope that some day, the people calling the shots will see war as being so horrific that it only be used as an obsolute last resort after all other options have been exhausted. War should never be used as a payback, or it becomes no more than a criminal act, a violation of human rights. And besides that, be absolutely certain that you're going after the responsible party and not someone else because you can't find the guilty party. Being patriotic is wonderful, but there is a difference between being patriotic and being bloodthirsty. I'd return every medal I ever received in return for not having destroyed just one innocent child. Well, there you have it and now I'll get off my soapbox and get back to cruising.

Chuck Palm August 5th, 2003 01:39 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
I enjoyed reading your comments Miles. They were most insightful! I love to read things written from an insider's point of view. It sounds like you are a real and caring "Hero."

Now I shall go and ponder about what you so eloquently stated.

Seahunks August 5th, 2003 02:41 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Yes, I apologize for the Democrat comment. It was my knee-jerk reaction to a hypersensitive and unnecessary criticism of a sincere tribute. And, yes, my reaction was unnecessarily condescending. But to call my reaction offensive, is to commit the same kind of over-reaction that generated my comment. I have as clear a definition of offensive as I have of "to be."

And for your information I used to be a Democrat, so I'm not completely out of right field.
I saw how they work up close and personal. According to them, with my minority status, I'm supposed to show them due deference and gratitude "because I can't accomplish anything for myself." And I would not submit to their rhetoric or group-think. As a result I have lived far better than if I had believed what they wanted me to believe about myself. My skepticism and cynicism about them is based on experience. THEY lay the groundwork of my contempt for them on a party level.

And, no, because I'm conservative and somewhat hawkish when it comes to threats against our country, does not mean that I'm racist, or any other alleged Democratic epithet. Neither am I a Rush Limbot--he is to elephants as Carville is to donkeys. I vote for candidates not for parties. And I base my opinions on facts, my distinct political "flaw" according to some of the more powerful Democrats I've known. The fact is, if we were to immediately begin a policy of isolationism...well, we've already run afoul of that portion of George Washington's Admonitions.

I won't launch into a further debate out of respect for the focus and intent of this site and its users, incuding those with whom I disagree. As Michelle pointed out, this is not the venue. So let's all agree that when we cruise, we must all be the best person-to-person diplomats we can be. I apologize for my earlier reaction.

Steve Until Enchantment. Until Inspiration
Sensation 2/03

Chuck Palm August 5th, 2003 02:56 PM

Re: Re: Long down load but worth it
Apology accepted.... Happy cruising!

anita kennedy August 5th, 2003 03:04 PM

Re: Re: Long down load but worth it
I must be a non-thinker. I merely looked at the clip, shed a tear for my son who is in the Air Force and his wife and remembered our years in the Air Force and was feeling so full of patriotism that I didn't notice that I saw one blonde female in the prarying part of it and didn't really look or count who was in it. Merely thank God they are there and wish the Higher Ups would pay them more for what they do. Do you know their allowance for food is $200 a month. I spend that in a week in the grocery. They have never had a raise in that.

I an appreciative of the break to come back to reality and realize some of us are still fighting for us to be able to cruise. I also wonder if some of the critics, counting females, blacks, hispanics etc have ever been in the service. They really should never have done away with the draft then maybe we would not have so many of our young adults in drug rehabs and psychiatric hospitals and they would have known what life is about. When you are in a controlled environment like the service it is not a democratic society as Myles put it and you do what you are told. Hats off to the people who can do this and do it well.

Thanks for the memories and reality check.

Harry Martin August 5th, 2003 03:45 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Hmmm, Seahunks, in reference to sentence 1 and 2 of your latest post, I always thought an apology was not followed by a back-hand slap.

Although the final paragraph made up for that.

(And, as one side note, perhaps I'm being "hypersensitive," and in due to deference to Michelle, I also found it funny Michelle netted the positive comment about avoiding controversial subjects, when that was my first comment along this entire thread. Just for the record.



Seahunks August 5th, 2003 05:03 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Harry, I did not mean to slight you, sir. I reread the thread and, indeed, you did bring up the avoidance of controversy, in this case. I was alluding to Michelle having repeatedly posted her appeal on other threads in the recent past. So of course, let me thank both you and her for attempting to restore peace to the board.

As far as sentences you refered: A back hand slap? No. I happen to be a lover of language and letters. I've studied a number of languages in my 50+ years but I'm most familiar and most sensitive about my native language, English. Offensive is one the most powerful words in our dictionary and I felt its use was a bit hyperbolic. And I dont like powerful words being slapped around where they don't really apply. That happens to deprive them of their real meaning. After too much such use, they become as effective as crying wolf. Too much of that is happening in English, mostly in the name of political causes. And it provokes a visceral reaction in me [Forgive any misspellings here--I'm typing beyond the speed of my ability to key.

As for the other sentence, well, as I read it again, yep--that dart was aimed straight at the icon of the previous administration. Oddly enough, I voted for him in '92. And I feel that he offended the inteligence of his American electorate, through the art of spin--call it semantics if you prefer--throughout his first term. That's why I voted differently in '96. The sentence was in reference to his pretense at believing that "is" had any meaning but its concise definition. He may have learned that trick from Fulbright.

If our court proceedings were conducted in Spanish, there would be a choice of two versions of "to be," one for inherent qualities and one for variable states. But to pretend that he didn't understand...

I'll stop before I start the whole thing again. I probably should have eliminated both sentences. I'll reassert my apologies and I'll confine my visceral output to my notepad in the future. I'm not even sure I should have written this response. In the future I'll confine my visceral reactions to my document file.

Sorry you took offense. I can't be responsible for everybody's perceptions.

Steve Until Enchantment. Until Inspiration
Sensation 2/03 .

Harry Martin August 5th, 2003 09:11 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it

You do have quite the manner of quieting any disagreement to your posts by offering an "apology," then paragraphs to denigrate those who disagree with you, followed by an almost dare to respond.

In the latest example, you apologize and then throw one more offensive log onto the fire, with your final comment that you "can't be responsible for everybody's perceptions."

Easy way out, huh?

I chose not to respond to your comments regarding the Democrat Party (earlier), and, later the Clinton Administration (later), because, once again, I do not think it is appropriate.

In your second-to-last post, you apologize and then deem anyone who disagreed with you "hypersensitive." This is followed by two paragraphs of damning those who ascribe to a different opinion and ideals.

Your second post further attempts to negate several members' opinion by stating that the word I used "offensive" is an exaggeration with your use of the word "hyperbole." It was not an exaggeration, and I do not appreciate you stating my opinions (and others) are nothing more than to slough off.

(By the way, 41 here, journalism degree, writing awards etc -- so I, too, have an English background (Though Michelle was smart enough to correct my spelling on canonize.) :-)

Speaking of whom, I think you could take a lead from Michelle, who disagreed, but who was most polite without denigrating an other's opinion. She was the epitome of class.

Harry (and I do not require a "Sir" in front of my name -- just a bit of respect for those who may hold opinions that differ from yours)

dan August 7th, 2003 03:50 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Thanks for the link Y2C. It is very touching, and it makes me proud to be an American.
To those who complained that women, minority were not represented, you miss the point. It is a tribute to those who served, knowling that they face death performing their duty. Some died, some got hurt, some made it out alive - yet all American whether man or woman of any race! This is America; last time I checked things that I say, write, and create does not have to go through a government agency to aprove of its content so that it will be inclusive, fair, etc. The tribute you watched was made by a private company made available for you to enjoy. If the tribute must be approved before you can see it then you already lose the America you enjoy because you lost the freedom of speech.

Aside from politics, the US is still the greatest democracy on Earth. The world wants to come here, but there are those who want us to be like the rest of the world. Crazy! To those, I say, go and experience the world for yourself. See how the other democracies live; see how the governed dwell in socialist paradise. As for me, I take the US any day because I have been there and done that - escaped communism, saw socialist heaven, blessed to be here.

On the point of race, the government should really be color blind. That is it! One race should not have preferential treatment over another. Speaking as an Asian whom has expererienced discrimination from white and black.

US' aid and money have gone to help countless countries whether friends or enemies and even those we defeated. When I travel I have no shame in saying that I am a US Citizen. It is among the very few that you can pull yourself up with your own boot strap relatively free from official intrusion and opression. With dedication, hardwork, and a good education, anyone can make a life for himself and have enough money and time to enjoy CRUISING!

KimJack August 7th, 2003 10:53 AM

Re: Long down load but worth it
I'm a U.S. Army veteran and proud of it! In fact, of all accomplishments in my personal and professional life I look at my military service most proudly. It didn't make me an intellectual giant or an urban legend, but I learned more in those 3 years than my 7 years of higher education. More about discipline. More about reading & leading people. More about hard work and persistence paying off.
Real life experience, not theory.

When I saw the tribute posted Monday my first thought was one of pride and thankfulness for the men and women who lay it on the line for their country and who do so voluntarily. And I thought regretfully of those men and women who never made it back to wear their uniforms on Veterans Day, but who are spoken of with hushed reverence every Memorial Day. Then I began to read the negative comments about relatively petty matters like whose faces weren't shown in the collage, and the possible political implications of the whole posting, and then I thought, "Don't they realize that this was meant as a tribute for all U.S. military past and present, and now they're twisting it into a commentary on political correctness?" Where's the love?

Finally, while I don't mean to continue to beat a dead horse, I cannot help but wonder how many of the Americans on this board who helped to misdirect this touching (IMHO) tribute ever served in the U.S Armed Forces themselves? Being a veteran doesn't make you a better person, but it certainly can make you feel better about yourself.


Harry Martin August 7th, 2003 09:51 PM

Re: Long down load but worth it
Jack, many good points

But along your line of thought: How many people here who jumped to knock anyone who protested the post or its non-inclusiveness ever served in the military, either?

That's a knife that cuts both ways and (IMHO) doesn't negate any comments said previously.

And, in terms of inclusiveness, we watch History Channel, but in WW II or Korea, it seems to be a white-only war because it was not OK to glorify the blacks, women (and others) who served at the same time.

There *IS* a point in all this "political correctedness," and that is to move forward in acknowledging everyone.

The second point being is that in my opinion -- and others -- this is not the place in which to discuss issues that any polite person would not bring up at the dinner table with those who may not not subscribe to their same thought beliefs.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:15 AM.

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1