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Old July 11th, 2006, 01:07 PM
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Default Ethical Problem

In resarching trans-atlantic cruises, one of my favorite lines, Celebrity, goes to a country that I am at personal odds with, Morocco....Another cruise line will be doing a trans/atlantic with the usual ports of Rome, Malaga, Florence, Funchal and then Miami.. The Celebrity ships also have ports of great interest like the Canary Islands and leave from Barcelona.. Has anybody ever dealt with this before... I really would like to see Casablanca and Tangiers...Any feed back would help!!
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Old July 11th, 2006, 01:33 PM
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Default Morocco

I'm not sure I understand the issue. You say you are "at odds" with Morocco, yet you want to see Casablanca and Tangiers. If you want to see these cities badly enough, then go - unless you're at risk of being arrested when you enter the country.......
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Old July 11th, 2006, 01:49 PM
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May we inquire as to why you are at "odds" with Morocco?
I also have the same question as Pooter.
If the Celebrity cruise truly has the other ports that you prefer, why can't you just boycott Morocco and stay on the ship??
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Old July 11th, 2006, 02:04 PM
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I don't agree with their governments politics and their relationship with this country... one of the other countries i would not vist is Libyia...or any other country that is ant-America and supports terrorists. The more I write my feelings about this I'm taking sides myself..lol
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Old July 11th, 2006, 03:47 PM
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It's a personal decision. No one can tell you what to do, you have to do what you feel is right.

Lots of people said they were not going to get off the ship when it docked in Aruba ... they were protesting the disappearance of Natalee Holloway and how the Aruban government handled it.

If I only visited places where I agree with their politics, I'd only be going to blue states!
[In fact, I'd have to move!]
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Old July 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM
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Stay on the ship?
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Old July 11th, 2006, 08:48 PM
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I would go..Don't punish the working everyday natives because of their government's policies..if that was the case, a whole lot of folks from outside the United States would not be visiting here
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:18 PM
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Last time I checked Morocco was one of our allies. Being a Muslim nation does not automatically qualify them as an enemy. You will not find one country that agrees with us on every policy so you may just have to stay on the ship at all ports.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 09:59 PM
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Thanks...I'm proud of being an American, very proud...One of the things that I'm asked about from non-
Americans is....questions on our politics and policies here. Never h ave I been ashamed or pretended to be a Canadian as others I've heard do..Parrot Pop and I hopefully will never be considered "ugly Americana".....I once heard a woman on a trip say "why can't they speak english"!!! She was in a spanish country..
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Old July 11th, 2006, 10:18 PM
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I will never visit Turkey due to crimes committed (read *genocide*) against the Armenians within their borders. Thay are also a US "ally", but then again, so was Saddam. Sadly, many Med cruises begin or end in Istanbul........
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Old July 11th, 2006, 10:51 PM
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Venice said it best, in my opinion. The government of Morocco does not give a rip whether you get off the ship and spend $200.00, but the people who need the $200.00 sure do.

Since you asked our opinions, I'd do what Venice suggested.
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Old July 11th, 2006, 11:22 PM
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Default Tourism

In all our years over traveling we have tried to meet people in other countries on a one to one basis..Tourism is the number one support of many countries that we go to and your correct we try to support the local artists and artisans.
We attempt to engage people in conversation and to share laughs even if it means through hand signals and acting things out (sounds strange..lol) Parrot Pop has picked up enough spanish to be more than appreciated.. Our travel experiences now can fill a book after 20 years...and I guess immersing ourselves in this culture which is the most difficult think about means that I better buy another language card....
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Old July 12th, 2006, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruise Cynic
I will never visit Turkey due to crimes committed (read *genocide*) against the Armenians within their borders. Thay are also a US "ally", but then again, so was Saddam. Sadly, many Med cruises begin or end in Istanbul........
I understand that sentiment and that of those of Kurdish decent. However as far as I can tell, Morocco has never been implicated in any act against us unlike Libya, Syria, Iran, et al. So I still do not know the source of Parrot Moms angst.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 08:48 AM
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I think it is in poor taste to judge a county by their politics just so you can have excuse not to visit.
Just because the news media has over blown the Natale Holloway disapeance, people think we should boycot Aruba. There have been many people who have disapeared over the years, has that stopped tourtist from going ?
How about the ones on cruise ships, Smith for one. Do you stop going on cruises?
Put you anger somewhere else, tell congress to stop sending aid to these countrys. That is my 2 cents worth.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice
I would go..Don't punish the working everyday natives because of their government's policies..if that was the case, a whole lot of folks from outside the United States would not be visiting here
Exactly.
Very well stated.
I am sure the US would be hurting in many of its high-tourist regions if that happened, because there are a lot of people from foreign countries who dislike our government's politics.

Btw, my nephew just returned from a school-sponsored trip to Spain and Morocco ... his high school Spanish club had no hesitation about taking the students there.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 12:15 PM
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Let's put it this way...I have no problem in going to Spain..I've been and will go back..but I do have a problem going to countries that require/demand that women cover their head and face. and make them second class citizens. BTW I have not ruled out these cruises. I had just been tossing out for general conversation some of my inner feelings about countries in the mid-East, i.e. Muslim countries..l Okay.. now you can call me a religous bigot!!
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Old July 12th, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Parrot Mom....you are just expressing your feelings, which does not make you bias or a religous bigot per say...however, one of the great advantages of travel to another county is that you have the opportunity, if only briefly to be expose to other cultures and norms (and if nothing else, most people do research before they go which gives you a small education) and what I have found in my many travels, is that people are just people and we have to respect their culture and beliefs as we would like them to accept (or at least tolerate) our culture and beliefs

Americans, despite what we like to think, in the world arena, are not always right

I bring a somewhat different perspective to this topic these days because I was amazed of the reaction of natives in foreign lands when they find out I am from New Orleans...Believe me, people all over the world watch CNN and I was asked how could the POTUS react in such a manner to the Katrina aftermath..and I always deflect away from the political angle and focus on thanking them for their sincere heartfelt direct aid to New Orleans which is a reminder to me of the love of people outside of the United States have for New Orleans

Because of 911 and Katrina and the power of CNN, the world views the United States differently and politics and religous norms take a back seat, to connection that other countries everyday citizens want to make with us
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Old July 12th, 2006, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrot Mom
Let's put it this way...I have no problem in going to Spain..I've been and will go back..but I do have a problem going to countries that require/demand that women cover their head and face. and make them second class citizens. BTW I have not ruled out these cruises. I had just been tossing out for general conversation some of my inner feelings about countries in the mid-East, i.e. Muslim countries..l Okay.. now you can call me a religous bigot!!
There are religious organizations in the United States that make women cover their heads and treat them as "second-class citizens."
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Old July 12th, 2006, 03:47 PM
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yes...but that doesn't make it right...
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Old July 12th, 2006, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parrot Mom
yes...but that doesn't make it right...
I'm not saying it's right.

However, you said you had problems with going to countries that demand women cover their heads, etc. etc.
And I was just pointing out that there are religious organizations that do that in this country too!

While I may not agree with the way some religions view woman and hold them to different standards than men, I respect their rights to practice their beliefs.
It would not stop me from visiting a country whose residents were predominantly of that religion.

But we all have our own convictions and we each draw a different line in the sand.
People boycott certain products or stores or venues [Disney World comes to mind] for various reasons.
We're free to make our own ethical stand, however we choose.

So it is your right, Parrot Mom, to choose what countries you rather not visit, based on your beliefs.
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Old July 12th, 2006, 04:13 PM
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how does one begin to influence a change in culture ?

I ask this because I just finished reading "The Wal Mart Effect" and in many ways Wal Mart is being asked to change "norms" in the countries they do business in by using their economic clout to be more in line with "norms" in the United Statesv?

Does that make it right ?

To bring this back to cruising, there is immense poverty in several of the caribbean islands that the cruise ships go to..since they make a fortune should they not make a major contribution to wipe out poverty in those islands?

Boycott's do not work..Just ask Fidel Castro
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