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Old July 26th, 2007, 05:42 AM
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Default What on earth is happening to our weather???

Hi all,

If you don't know, the UK has been hit by very serious flooding since alst month with the north getting hit first and now the south and the midlands too!

It is the worst flooding ever and the wettest 3 months on record for this country. Some parts of the country are not dissimilar to that of the remnants of Katrina, with vast floods, people cut off, people with no drinking water, looting of abandoned vehicles and empty houses going on - its like a warzone!!!!! and no that some of the floods are receding, great worries about desease, e-coli etc.

What a total nightmare and here we are in the UK donating to all other badly hit countries whilst our own suffer like this.

We used to be known and the green and pleasant land but at the moment you don't need to go on a cruise, just come and visit water-logged Britian

In New York, heavy flooding too and in southern Europe, absolutely blazing temperatures, people dropping like flies from heat exhaustion.

What is going on - are you experiencing freak weather conditions in your neck of the woods too???

Kind regards to all,

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Old July 26th, 2007, 09:51 AM
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Hi Kimmiegirl I saw pictures like this one is the San Francisco newspaper.
I live in California and we have not had strange weather. However, I did read this about the sun.
"NASA scientists are keeping a close eye on the sun, which is currently almost spotless, a sign that it may have reached "solar minimum." Solar minimum is the period of least sunspot and solar flare activity in the 11-year solar cycle. "
I'm not good at science, but I wonder is that is what's causing the problems. Hope the flooding stops soon.
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Old July 26th, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Kimmie, we have had a lot of rain in Texas for 3 months now. This is the 6th wettest July, since records have been kept. It has been widespread enough that only some areas have had flooding.

I have heard about the floods you are experiencing and I understand all that goes with it. In 1979, the town I live in received 43 inches of rain in 24 hours. It still holds the record for the most rainfall in 24 hours for North America.

Unless you have experienced it, it is hard to realize all the problems that come with widespread flooding.
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Old July 26th, 2007, 10:42 AM
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Here in the United States, areas of southern Texas have had significant flooding due to incessant rains for the last six weeks or so. There have also been significant rains and flooding in the central US. Conversely, parts of the southeast US are experiencing significant drought conditions, which are gradually spreading northward to the mid-Atlantic states. And, of course, the warming trend in Alaska continues, with glaciers melting at an alarming rate.

There have always been weather anomalies of one sort or another in this country, simply because of our geographic size. But it's also true that climate change is very real.

It is considered great sport on this board to make fun of people like Al Gore, who undermine their credentials as environmentalists by not always practicing what they preach. But it's a given that all politicians are hypocrites to one degree or another. We do ourselves a great disservice when we focus on those foibles as a way of ignoring the validity of the warning signs we see all around us.

Hope you folks in Britain can dry out soon.
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Old July 26th, 2007, 11:12 AM
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Well said, AR
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Old July 26th, 2007, 01:31 PM
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You know AR, that was really well said.........
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Old July 28th, 2007, 10:02 PM
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In our area, (Northern California) the weather is very very hot and dry. Today, we saw on the TV news, people who have boats in Folsom Lake have been given a deadline to get them OUT because the water line is so low. The boating season hasn't really even begun yet! Then you have the recent Tahoe fires...

'Denial' isn't just a river in Egypt

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Old July 28th, 2007, 10:29 PM
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It's hot here, but it could be worse! It's rainy here, but it could be worse. I think I'll pull my head back into my turtle shell and hope and pray that the weather phenomena overlooks Louisiana....

The strange weather across the world brings to mind a few questions people brought up after Katrina.....such as, "They need to bulldoze New Orleans and not let anyone live there!" and "Why would anyone choose to live in an area that floods?"

It seems that every area has some weather or natural condition to contend with.....people in Louisiana already knew this and that is why we pray for our friends overseas and here at home. We know what it feels like when the history and soul of your hometown has been beaten down. We know what it feels like to fight back against enormous odds. We know what it feels like when your home town struggles to be reborn. We wish no one else would ever have to go through anything like this ever again. {steps down from soap box}

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Old July 29th, 2007, 02:24 AM
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Hey Kimmie,

I have been watching the weather in your area, and there seems to be no breaks.

Thinking of you and hope that it stops soon.

Luanne
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Old July 29th, 2007, 06:49 AM
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Weather is pretty wierd here too. Mildest winter you can imaagine, not that were complaining cause all the energie companys had to give just about everyone money back at the end of the year. Really warm spring like sumnmer really and now a pretty wet summer.
I reckon there's something going on and probably someone knows about it too but just won't tell.
Well if Holland floods it can get very dramatic seeing as were mostly under sea level. Glad my hubby works on board a tanker on the inland rivers. If we flood he can sail up and rescue me.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR
... ...And, of course, the warming trend in Alaska continues, with glaciers melting at an alarming rate.

There have always been weather anomalies of one sort or another in this country, simply because of our geographic size. But it's also true that climate change is very real.

It is considered great sport on this board to make fun of people like Al Gore, who undermine their credentials as environmentalists by not always practicing what they preach. ... ... We do ourselves a great disservice ... ... ignoring the validity of the warning signs we see all around us.
Ok, I know I'll get hate mail over this but I can't pass this one by. Yes AR is correct, climate change is real. In fact it's happened many times before, long before man ever arrived. Yes, some glaciers in Alaska are melting, but not all of them. Yes one part of the Antarctic is shrinking in size, but another section is expanding. Yes, part of the Greenland icecap is diminishing, but another part is getting bigger. Did you know that there was once a land bridge between Asia and Alaska? A warming trend raised the sea level and covered most of it 40,000 years ago long before the industrial age. The only part of it you see is the Aleutian Islands.

My point, with all due respect to Al Gore, is that he is only looking at the science that buttresses his point. I respect his concerns and his passion for the subject in question. I also agree with his believe we should be better stewards of the planet. But the real fact is that a sizeable (albeit a minority) number of climatologists, meteorologists and others due not believe the evidence supports his conclusions.

Two people can look at glass of water filled to the halfway point. Some may say its half empty. Some can say its half full. Both would be equally correct and equally wrong in their conclusions.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 01:30 PM
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Thanks Brian for saying what I wanted to say. Human activity may be adding to global warming but is not the principal cause. Greenland once had no ice and a large portion of North America was once covered by
glaciers. I do take offense to the Hollywood and political crowd that burn energy like it was going out of style and then claim that they are buying credits that enable them to do so.

The same can be said of wierd weather patterns. We have always had them. We have had dust bowls, droughts and floods in different parts of the world every year and even a temperature of zero in New Orleans on one New Year's day. Last summer in South Texas, our rain gauges were filled with dust and this year has probably been the wettest and coolest summer ever. Predicting the weather accurately, including hurricanes, is almost impossible. This old earth will do what this old earth wants to do.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 02:02 PM
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Brian,and Paul B,
I agree!
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Old July 29th, 2007, 02:25 PM
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In response to the post further above about Al Gore and global warming.

Lets just say it.

Its global warming. I am so sorry for everyone that is feeling its effects, but we only have ourselves to blame and we only have ourselves to turn to to stop it.

I could go on and on with facts but now I dont need to because we are past that point, the proof is becoming evident.

So with respect to everyone, if your not a believer open your eyes and take another look at it and do something in your own way to help.

By the way if your still not a believer because of politics your taking a foolish stance, this is not about politics anymore, its pure science.

Ok got my two cents in, im out :-)

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Old July 29th, 2007, 02:52 PM
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Eh, thats my point sirrobin171. The science does not conclusively support what Al Gore is saying. It's not pure science. No, I am not saying this as a matter of politics. Politics has nothing to do with this and it shouldn't. For example, AL said in his movie that an entire group of people had to be moved from an island off of New Zealand because of rising water levels. When asked about this during his recent trip to that country, he ignored the question. Thats because it didn't happen! The fact is sea levels have not significantly risen in the last 100 years.

With that said, it does not mean that it couldn't rise, and cause serious problems. Nor is everything Al Gore said wrong. Much of what he said was, is or could very well come to pass. However, I am saying some of what he said is wrong. Bad science, not his politics, calls into question his credibility.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 04:12 PM
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I'm not aware that he was found to be wrong with any part of his movie, can you back up your claims?
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Old July 29th, 2007, 04:40 PM
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I don't think it matters one way or another. All you have to do is read the bible. Our weather was in there years ago. Oh man, I hope Al Gore didn't write that too.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 04:43 PM
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Let's say for argument's sake that the science is exactly 50/50. I don't for a minute believe that it is, but let's concede it for the sake of this discussion.

So if the glass is exactly half empty and half full, how would prudent people behave?

In my view prudent people would act as though the problem is real and imminent and take aggressive action accordingly. They would do this because they would correctly believe that an even bet with so much at stake is a bad bet.

Instead, those who don't want to face the worst possibilities, in league with those who have a tremendous amount to gain by maintaining the short-term status quo, try to rationalize, claiming that they want "conclusive" proof. But their arguments boil down to just saying, "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?" And a great number of them use the intellectually dishonest tactic of attacking the messengers on issues having nothing to do with the merits of their case.

That's disingenuous, to put it mildly.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 04:46 PM
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Well, I don't know about northern California, but San Diego Is DRY, DRY, DRY.
I think we had maybe 3 inches of rain last year, and we've already had several fires.
It is hot and dry here !!
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Old July 29th, 2007, 05:52 PM
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Yes sirobin, I can back up the claims. I am not sure how to send a pdf through this site so email me at pbloom@woh.rr.com and I'll pass on all the data I have. As I tried to explain, Al Gore did get some of it right, but he also got some of it wrong.

AR, I have nothing to gain by maintaining the status quo. I am not trying to rationalize. I am not even attacking the messenger per say. As I said, I respect his concerns and his passion for the subject in question. I also agree we should be better stewards of the planet.

However; buying "carbon credits" so I can go out and ride a gas guzzling SUV or limo to a NASCAR (or for that matter Indy car) event and watch a bunch of race cars create even more pollution, is not a solution. Al Gore certainly has not helped his case by not practicing what he preaches. Even you would agree it does not help his credibility.

Maybe ethanol is the solution. Oh wait; ethanol is only 80% as fuel efficient as standard gas. When people realize they get 20% less car miles per gallon will they drive less? Or will they buy and consume even more fuel thus effectively negating the potential gains to the environment?

I also believe there is a super volcano under Yellowstone that will erupt again; a massive meteor or comet will hit the planet; and a nearby star will eventually go nova. Each is a very real possibility. But I am not going to bury my head under the sand and ignore the science and probabilities involved with each.

So I thank Al Gore for bringing the situation to the forefront. I thank him for raising awareness to a potential serious situation that affects us all. But as good as his intentions may be, scientific theory must be able to pass scientific scrutiny. Just because some people don't like his political views, does not mean we should ignore him. Likewise, just because someone challenges his facts does not mean we should dismiss the challenger either.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 06:16 PM
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I need to add a few more cents here.

As far as the bible goes, With respect, I live in reality, I don't base my thoughts and rationalizations on prophecy, but facts. The bible is the christian interpertation of many mens view of god. It was written in a time when christians were being persecuted and it is a reflection of that time.

You can find anything you need or want in the bible by picking a line from here and there and suddenly it applies to your circumstances.

Obviously there is a god and I believe in jesus, but not every word in the bible because it contradicts itself many times.

Fact is ever since we industrialized, year after year it got warmer on this planet, and the co2 levels match the temerature rise year after year.

We started this and we can stop it, that's a fact.

By the way those people that had to move their village, there is film footage showing their houses falling in the ocean because the permafrost melted the sub foundations away.

One more thing, and this goes out to Luanne directly.

By saying "Oh man, I hope Al Gore didn't write that too." you must be refering to the "invented the internet" thing years ago. I am sorry to tell you this Luanne, that is a falsehood that has been circulating for years by the right. He never said that he "invented" the internet, he said he was partially responsible for creating econmic policies to spark the commercial use of the internet, which he did. So the joke is old and worn out and when informed, clearly not even funny because it is based on misleading statements from the right.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

Honestly, this is not about politics, democrate or republican or independant, its about my kids, your kids, the next generation having a life like we have. Being able to breath air and go on cruises and live in peace. If we melt the polar ice caps we will submerge into a hell not seen on this planet yet. Wars, sickness, and death. So I would not joke so lightly about this especially without being informed.

Thx
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Old July 29th, 2007, 06:49 PM
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Just for clarification I wasn't the one that brought up the bible. I'll agree with sirobin on that point. As to our scientific debate:

The island in question was in the South Pacific. Federated States of Micronesia to be more specific. Carteret or Kilinailau Island to be exact.

As for the permafrost zone, it is found in Alaska, northern Canada and much of Siberia. Why did the water rise there and no where else, say Vancover, or Seattle, both much closer to the permafrost? Or for that matter Tokyo or Manila? Or New York or Boston? No sea level rise in those places all of which were much closer to the permafrost. In fact all the places I mentioned were in the Northern Hemisphere. The islands you refer to are all in the southern hemisphere. So how did the water level rise just at those islands, and all due to the permafrost melting without affecting the Northern hemisphere?

You honestly think, that while the water did not rise in those places, it chose to rise only in this one little island in the south pacific? Does this make sense to anybody?

The island in question dropped because of shifts in the earths plates. You might have even scored a point if you suggested it was due to water melting somewhere in the southern hemisphere. But you, and the movie, both incorrectly cited permafrost melt.

Point to me sirobin, or more correctly, good science. Your turn. Hey this is fun.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 07:08 PM
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I can see I am dealing with a very astute intelectual. I have to admitt I am taking his word on the permafrost.

I thought the permafrost melted due to air temperature, not seawater, I didnt even think the sea had anything to do with the permafrost melting directly, so I was not thinking rising sea levels.

See I have not seen the movie in some time so I may not remember that he made his point on the the surrounding water causing the problem.

I am going to throw the DVD in tonight and watch it and get back to you, but if you are right you make a valid point and I will give you credit.

However he did make some very accurate claims in the movie that support the entire global warming theory anyhow.

Let me get back to you tomorrow :-)
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Old July 29th, 2007, 07:43 PM
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Actually I thought I was dealing with the intellectual, for it takes a person with an open mind to admit what he thought was fact may not be so. So a point to you sir for not being the type who blindly believes everything he is told!

On your behalf, there are many learned individuals who think the islands may be sinking due to global warming; however, they also run up against the argument I made which is that there is no uniform sea level rise across the globe.

That’s not to say this couldn’t actually be the case. Just that it has not been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. As I said, Al Gore was not, scientifically speaking, wrong in everything he said in his movie. To the contrary, much (indeed most) of it was correct. I merely point out that there are several, errors, omissions and inconsistencies in the science he presented as fact.

I was also going to point out to you and AR that if you truly wanted to help negate your own carbon footprint, neither of you would likely take another cruise. After all, they are pleasure trips and a huge waste of fossil fuel, no matter how efficient the engines are. If we were to eliminate them altogether think of the fuel saved! Think of all the soap and detergents used by the people on board. Think of all the trash generated. Think of all the decadent waste!

So view the movie again and get back to me. We can continue the debate again then. Better yet, perhaps on a cruise. My wife and I are going on our third this coming January. If you and AR wish to join us, I’ll buy the first round and you can both point out the errors in my logic over your favorite beverage. I plan on being decadent and inhaling the occasional scent of diesel fumes while sitting on the aft end of the ship and drinking a Corona (with lime).

We can watch the rising sea level as the sun sets.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 08:13 PM
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Brian, I am with you 100 % except for the Corona.

Since you seem to be very well informed on the facts, I would appreciate some information relating to the increase of the surface temperature on Mars in relation to the surface temperature increase on Earth. I have heard statements made in talk radio that the increases are very similar. If true, this would support the theory that the sun is at least partially to blame for global warming.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 08:21 PM
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My belief is that talk radio causes global warming.

Too much hot air.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 08:48 PM
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Ah a fine point about cruising being waistful.

I disagree though.

While you are certainly correct about the carbon emmisions being great on a cruise ship, you must take one very important fact into consideration when looking at this.

All these people that are on the cruise ship are NOT

Driving their car for the duration
Washing cloths at their home for the duration
Using (much) electricity for the duration
Consuming non renewable fuels and chemicals for the duration
Generating trash for the duration (The cruiseline also recycles trash, not all of us do this).


I would even venture to say they are being more efficient by being on the cruise ship then using the resources on their own.

Why because the cruiseline operates under clean ocean and air guidelines, the cruise lines want to save as much money as possible and therfore are as effeicient with resources as possible, and have the means to put expensive efficiencies in place where individuals do not, such as a highly efficient laundry system. Of which the waist water is treated, cleaned and most importantly not simply run off into the ocean.

So im not giving up my cruise crack habbit anytime soon, and I do not feel guilty for cruising my brains out, and neither should you. I feel great about it from an enviromental standpoint ;-)

I will however have that beer if we do happen to efficiently cruise on the same ship one day.

Rob


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian and Phyllis in Ohio
Actually I thought I was dealing with the intellectual, for it takes a person with an open mind to admit what he thought was fact may not be so. So a point to you sir for not being the type who blindly believes everything he is told!

On your behalf, there are many learned individuals who think the islands may be sinking due to global warming; however, they also run up against the argument I made which is that there is no uniform sea level rise across the globe.

That’s not to say this couldn’t actually be the case. Just that it has not been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. As I said, Al Gore was not, scientifically speaking, wrong in everything he said in his movie. To the contrary, much (indeed most) of it was correct. I merely point out that there are several, errors, omissions and inconsistencies in the science he presented as fact.

I was also going to point out to you and AR that if you truly wanted to help negate your own carbon footprint, neither of you would likely take another cruise. After all, they are pleasure trips and a huge waste of fossil fuel, no matter how efficient the engines are. If we were to eliminate them altogether think of the fuel saved! Think of all the soap and detergents used by the people on board. Think of all the trash generated. Think of all the decadent waste!

So view the movie again and get back to me. We can continue the debate again then. Better yet, perhaps on a cruise. My wife and I are going on our third this coming January. If you and AR wish to join us, I’ll buy the first round and you can both point out the errors in my logic over your favorite beverage. I plan on being decadent and inhaling the occasional scent of diesel fumes while sitting on the aft end of the ship and drinking a Corona (with lime).

We can watch the rising sea level as the sun sets.
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Old July 29th, 2007, 08:58 PM
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Popcorn! Popcorn! Get your popcorn riiiiiigggghhhtt here! 5 bucks a box! 5 bucks a box! Popcorn! Get your popcorn!

Okay I'm ready! Let the battle commence!

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Old July 29th, 2007, 09:28 PM
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Excellent sirobin! Yes, looking at in the context you describe we are, it could be argued, actually saving energy by cruising. Wonderful! Though to be honest I was not actually going to feel the least bit guilty in doing so. Another beverage for you sir!

PaulB. As to the warming on Mars, I don't have any information. Your theory on the sun being at least partially to blame is radical.
I mean, think of all those scientists, saying the problem needs more study, and more funding$$$. If the answer were really that simple what would happen to them? What would we do if it really was our friendly neighborhood star and not the result of the industrial age? Your not suggesting this is meerly a case of the squeeky wheel needing the grease are you? No Corona for you sir!

AR is possibly correct. Talk radio, from the extremes (both left and right) may be the cause. Actually, extremists are useful in one respect. They help define the middle. Think of it. The complex problems we face are hard because there is not always an easy liberal or conservative, right or wrong answer. The tough questions are tough because there is no easy answer.

Except for mstill. Melody, five bucks for a box of popcorn is way too much. However, if you throw in the butter you got a deal!
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Old July 30th, 2007, 12:04 AM
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Making popcorn does require a lot of hot air or hot oil. Either way, you are adding to global warming.
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