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Old September 16th, 2007, 08:41 PM
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Default Please Stop

abuse'ing the poor 'old apostrophe's....

Mom's means "belonging to mom" NOT more than one Mom.


AAAAAARGGHHH.
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Old September 16th, 2007, 08:43 PM
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I think you've got too much time on your hands!

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Old September 16th, 2007, 09:09 PM
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you mean you're hand's

don't you?

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Old September 16th, 2007, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Please Stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruise Cynic
abuse'ing the poor 'old apostrophe's....

Mom's means "belonging to mom" NOT more than one Mom.


AAAAAARGGHHH.
LMAO.............and you are trying to correct someone else's grammar
LMAO

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Old September 16th, 2007, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruise Cynic
you mean you're hand's

don't you?

I don't think they meant to say "you are hands".
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Old September 17th, 2007, 12:19 AM
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HOLY MOLY
The blind leading the blind.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 12:22 AM
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and they are driving!! everyone stay off the sidewalks!
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Old September 17th, 2007, 01:51 AM
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I really don't care much if there are typos, spelling mistakes, or mistakes in grammar. or even an extra apostrophe.

In most cases it's easy enough to understand what people are saying in their posts, and if you can't then there's probably much more wrong with the post
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Old September 17th, 2007, 08:18 AM
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Abusing = correct spelling!
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Old September 17th, 2007, 08:22 AM
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thanks Melody..I wasn't going to bring that point up
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuki
I really don't care much if there are typos, spelling mistakes, or mistakes in grammar. or even an extra apostrophe.
Kuki, you sound just like a modern English teacher! Why bother with details when there are so many more important things to worry about? After all, as you imply, it's so easy to communicate well, even through a thunderstorm of erroneous English.

I'm not going to try to sort out which of the above replies were tongue-in-cheek, but it's certainly true that whether it's apostrophes, spelling, grammar, usage, capitalization or syntax, the internet is a sewer of our poor language, and that's a shame.

And while we expect that bulletin board employees and cheerleaders will never criticize such "trivial" transgressions (after all, part of their job is to foster as many posts as possible), those of us who have occasionally made a serious penny by the pen still have a "fingernails on the blackboard" reaction when we see "dinning" for "dining," misplaced apostrophes, and all the other things we're now supposed to overlook in the interest of the lowest common denominator. We can't help it. It's in our DNA to appreciate what Edwin Newman called A Civil Tongue. If you want people who don't care anymore, you'll have to wait another generation. Then nobody will be concerned (or know any better) and all will be well.

This is the point where you're supposed to say, "Well, that's pretty snooty. I bet he's made plenty of mistakes too." Yep, he has. And if you go back and look at my posts I'm sure you'll find loads of typos, some misspellings and the occasional usage problem. That's because I'm sometimes lazy when writing on boards, and I don't enjoy the good offices of a gifted copy editor, something I've always had when writing "for real."

Copy editor? What's that? I know, I know. It's a foreign concept on the internet. I'll explain it some day.

The point is, at least I'm one of those who tries to get it right, and I have the old-fashioned notion that proper use of the language actually aids communication. At least it takes away some of the roadblocks.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:27 AM
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This is just so silly in my view. I just don't have time in a day to get upset about some ones spelling or to correct some ones spelling. This is a chit chat board, it's not English class. I expect an English teacher to correct spelling, I dont expect some one on a chit chat board to do so.

There is to much to do in life to worry about things like that, and frankly it is rude and insulting. There are many people for many reasons who do not spell well, and they don't need to read things like this and some how feel lectured . This is a social board, where people talk using a key board.

We all have our things that we do well and other things we do not do well. I personally am not good at grammar, and I make alot of typos when I type fast and late at night, but if you have a cardiac arrest I can give you CPR and if your computer crashes I can take care of that, and while I am terrible with driving directions, I will be the first one out on the road to help some one in need, although with the GPS gadget so I dont get lost..........point is, well, I presume most will get my point.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfthuis
This is a chit chat board, it's not English class. I expect an English teacher to correct spelling
Obviously, you've set very high expectations.

Point is, it is exactly the things that those English teachers have and have not done that we see reflected in the writing and communication that is all around us. It isn't about criticizing a specific individual; it's about a society that doesn't care.

By the way, I can give CPR too.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
And if you go back and look at my posts I'm sure you'll find loads of typos, some misspellings and the occasional usage problem. That's because I'm sometimes lazy when writing on boards, and I don't enjoy the good offices of a gifted copy editor, something I've always had when writing "for real."
And, I think this is the point. We don't all write for a living, and we don't all have copy editors. Certainly all of us, since we're using computers, have access to spell checks... but even those don't pick up all the errors.

Would it be nice if there were no mistakes, and everyone used perfect language? Probably. But in this gendre it is not worth complaining about.

If all were perfect, we'd then have to question which English is correct. I speak and type in the "Queen's English" , so even use different spelling, and word definitions.

If the articles I write for the site weren't passed by a copy editor no doubt reading my articles would grate on you. Though they may anyway
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Old September 17th, 2007, 11:49 AM
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we are all human..that's part of the fun of being alive and I'm sure Cruixe Cynic, need exactly the intent of the original post
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Old September 17th, 2007, 12:19 PM
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It is quite easy to make a mistake of some type when posting to a board..no big deal.

What gets my goat is "official" mistakes!

I have made the drive from Portland/Vancouver to Seattle, WA at least a couple hundred times since '93.
Each time I pass through Olympia I see the same half of the exit signs misspelling CAPITOL.
1/2 of the signs read CAPITAL which is a financial term.
How many hands did those signs have to pass through without the misspelling being caught?
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Old September 17th, 2007, 01:31 PM
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Most people here (myself & Mrs. Cynic excluded) speak one language only. Many of these same people speak (and by extension, write) badly.... oops, I mean poorly.

Most people here think of themselves as educated and intelligent.

Why not make the small effort to appear intelligent when posting on a WRITTEN MEDIUM? I'm not saying this annoys everybody, but it clearly annoys some of us. Why not take the tiny amount of time necessary to present yourself in the best light possible?

Example: I have NEVER seen a post by AR that was not well-written, and well thought out. I may not always agree with what he says, but he comes across here as extremely well spoken, mostly because he takes the time necessary to create his post before hitting "submit". As a result, he comes across well in my view. The owner of this site, a humble musician, is also very well rounded with his prose. For all his "casual" ways, I know Kuki also checks his stuff before posting it.... because I remember his "old ways" from the old days. The moose has learned to improve (although a few misspellings like "genre" still slip by ). So can you.

Most people find their children's use of internet acronyms such as POS and MIRL, and text abbreviations like GR8 and QL annoying.... (and difficult at times to decipher)

Sometimes I have a hard time deciphering a post here, often because the poster has not taken the time to gather their thoughts before hitting the keys. Often whole words are missing from sentences. Other times it is because of phonetic spelling or poor grammar. I can understand (and have seen many times) posters here whose mother tongue is not English. I cut those folks a lot of slack, and a ton of respect for making the effort.

In closing, I would like to point out that I draw a link between poor spelling/grammar and "wearing jeans to the dining room".... Making a swift judgement, certainly (I'm sure they are nice people).... I just cannot help it. I did not sleep through High School English class.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 04:56 PM
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I almost got through this post without making a comment, which would have been very difficult for me. After seeing the comment about capital vis-a-vis capitol, however, I changed my mind. Although the comment was clearly well-intended, it was basically incorrect.

While it is true that the word capital can relate to financial matters, it also can be used to indicate "the city or town that is the official seat of government of a country, state, etc." (Random House Webster's College Dictionary) Thus one might say (or a sign might indicate) that Olympia is the [i]capital[/b] of the State of Washington, and that would be a correct usage of the word "capital".

The word Capitol (with the first letter in uppercase) would be incorrect in that context. The word Capitol is defined as "the building in Washington, D.C., in which the U.S. Congress holds its sessions." (ibid) In addition, the word capitol (with the first letter in lowercase) is often used to describe "a building occupied by a state legislature". (ibid) Please note that in either definition, the word refers to a building and not a city.

In case anyone does not understand the word "uppercase", it refers to capital letters. Hmmm. I have not bothered to check this post for spelling, by the way. Feel free to have at me! :evil:

Jack 8)
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Old September 17th, 2007, 05:36 PM
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Jack, as always I love you to pieces.

As for posts like "please stop" and it is about spelling-grammer , sorry, and it is only my opinion, life is as I said just to short, not to mention the fact that I seriously doubt it will change most peoples way of writting, and it sure will not mine. I may not be the best in spelling and I dont run the spell check all the time, if ever on chat, because I am on chat, I am not at work, this is social, we are among cyber friends, if it is my work, it is corrected, but good "friends" dont correct spelling, and shouldnt get their knickers in a twist over grammer.........they listen for the meaning behind the words.

As for appearing intelligant, when some one talks about oh lets say computers, and computer problems they may have do they appear unintelligant? No, they simply are weak in that area........If I ask some one about the inner working of the car air conditioner....does that make me unintelligant? No, not at all, if some one has poor spelling, that does not make them unintelligant...........I dont feel so......that is a weakness they have..........I guess I prefere to know the whole person before I judge their intelligance level by their grammer and spelling.......





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Old September 17th, 2007, 06:45 PM
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Well, since we're never going to get to know the "whole person" on a bulletin board, sometimes the way they use the language and the way they compose their thoughts is the only thing we have to go on. Here, more than almost anywhere else, your language is you.

As for your drawing a comparison to people who ask questions about running a computer, I think you miss the point. Naturally, anyone who asks a question about something they don't know isn't displaying a lack of intelligence. They're displaying a wholesome curiosity or a genuine need to know. That isn't remotely analagous to what this string is about, or to what Cruise Cynic was talking about in the original post.

Some of us just have the opposite point of view: life is too short to get it wrong. Supposedly, we all learned to read and write in school. It's supposed to be the bedrock stuff and we weren't supposed to leave it at the classroom door, compartmentalize it, and say it was just a rite of passage. We were supposed to take the learning with us, respect it, use it, and as a result become more credible communicators. In other words, we were supposed to put it on our toolbelts as a way to foster clear expression, critical thinking, and the ability to organize our thoughts. It isn't just about apostrophes and commas. Those are just symptoms.

As for the argument that "nobody does everything well," that's completely right. For instance, I'd give anything to be able to sing, but I just can't do it. Can't carry a tune even in the shower. And it's frustrating because I absolutely LOVE music; can't live a day without it. So, I don't sing. And I won't go near karaoke. But I'm the best audience in the world when it comes to good music of any stripe.

Now, I admit that it's a lot tougher not to write than it is not to sing. But that's why English is a required course and music is an elective.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 06:46 PM
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NOT going to get involved in this debate. I have standards for myself and others have to set their own. If a post is unintelligible, I just skip it and go on.... not my problem. For several years, whenever we visited my in-laws in the town where we used to live, I would see a sign directing me to the Martin Luther King, Jr. Historic "Sight". It drove me nuts! Finally my best friend was appointed to the City Beautiful Commission and I took her out and showed it to her. The next time we visited the sign had been corrected to "Site". Believe it or not, they got 5 or 6 complaints about the change from people who thought the original spelling was the correct one.
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Old September 17th, 2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfthuis
This is just so silly in my view. I personally am not good at grammar, and I make alot of typos
Including the word "alot". Do you mean : a lot"? Fuel on the fire!
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Old September 17th, 2007, 07:28 PM
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KimJack,
I will concede your explanation of the word Capitol.

Spent many years thinking I was correct.

Here's another one....Definitely, not definately.
(I already looked it up )
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Old September 17th, 2007, 10:09 PM
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It seems most of us must defer the final word in matters linguistic to KimJack (Jack).....

He holds a Masters degree in English Lit., (which shames my mere B.A.) so he has forgotten more than I remember on this subject.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruise Cynic
abuse'ing the poor 'old apostrophe's....

Mom's means "belonging to mom" NOT more than one Mom.


AAAAAARGGHHH.
But its just as bad when people dont put them in where they should, isnt it?
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Old September 18th, 2007, 09:49 AM
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Remember, english isn't everyone's first language. We need to cut those folks some slack because I'm amazed how they can speak more than one language even if their writing isn't perfect.

And for all of you self-described grammarians on here remember...Some of those rules you learned in 6th grade 40 years ago aren't really taught anymore. Like it or not, grammar rules DO change.

I hate it that kids are graduating today who can't spell the word lamp as much as anyone. But I also know how well someone writes or how intelligent they are in some area isn't a true test of how intelligent they are overall. Most college professors live in that academic bubble...They are extremely well educated but put them out in the real world and they are just lost. Also, that old question comes to mind....Why does the surgeon have to call the tow truck driver to change his tire? lol.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 12:22 PM
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Jack, I never knew you were a post-grad in English. That's great. In the interest of debunking the old joke about "What do you do with an English degree?" it would be interesting to learn how you went from that into the career we know about.

On other issues, I think we've made it clear on this string that people for whom English is a second language are pretty easy to spot on bulletin boards, and we all agree that they get a pass on the "apostrophe" front (along with a lot of respect). So let's put that one to rest.

And, there are a lot of things that "aren't taught anymore," and that's a big part of the problem. But things don't change just because they aren't taught. I haven't heard of many formal changes in the rules of good communication (grammar, etc.), and I'd be very interested if someone could cite a few. Mind you, there are some rules that writers break for effect--out of knowledge, not out of ignorance. The occasional split infinitive is a good example; ending a sentence with a preposition is another. But that doesn't mean the rules have disappeared.

Finally, the surgeon and the tow truck joke is just an example of the "nobody does everything well" theme that's already been addressed.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 01:42 PM
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AR:

Agree with part of what you are saying. However, the second lagnuage folks can be more of an issue than you think and those folks aren't always given a break as you seemed to suggest. A few years ago, I was an investigative report writing instructor for a police academy in California. For many years, the school of thinking was either people need to be able to put together a sentence, nearly perfectly, or they would have to be booted out of the academy for lack of report writing skills.

Of course, with the huge amount of english as a second language foks in California, this became a huge issue. Law enforcement began needing folks who spoke spanish as well as many other languages. Of course, they didn't write as well as some other people because english wasn't their primary language. So what were we to do? Boot them out because they might use first person etc. by mistake in a sentence or because they could never quite punctuate perfectly? The bottom line was we didn't have time to teach them english in the academy.

The answer became a controversial (but one I came to agree with) holistic grading system. Long story short, reports were graded on the basis of the reader's ability to understand what was being written....Not whether or not it was written perfectly. I would imagine this is still quite an issue today in colleges around the country. We have to remember that a huge portion of this country's population wasn't taught the way we were. When I was taking the course on holistic grading, the instructor gave us all a grammar test. It was designed for all of us who fancied ourselves as better than average in writing and grammar and was just for fun. The point of the test was to show all us "grammarians" there are more obscure grammar "rules" than any normal human knows. I wish I could find that old test on here and post it. If anyone scored above a 40 pct, I would pay for your next cruise....brochure lol. Trust me, you wouldn't.


The bottom line is can the text be understood by the reader? I know that seems sad to some but we better learn to roll with the punches on this one.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 03:20 PM
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That's an interesting story and an excellent point.
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Old September 18th, 2007, 03:43 PM
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I hate to tell you this, Al, but you should know better than to take everything our friendly Cynic writes on these boards as gospel. My graduate studies were actually in Educational Administration, but I did have a minor in English as an undergrad. That Cynic will say anything to get into my good graces, although I can't imagine why! But thanks anyway, CC.

As for how I slipped from studying one field to actually following a far different career course, what can I say? By the time I began my graduate studies, I had already spent three years in the Army and was a three-year employee of that once-great federal agency with which you're familiar. It was a good decision on my part, and I can say with all honesty that I never looked back. I would never have made a good teacher anyway ... of that I'm certain. But that's water over the dam (or possibly under the bridge).

By the way, I hope that none of you missed oomthree's tongue-in-cheek remark about the apostrophe matter. I thought it was quite clever.

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