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Old December 13th, 2007, 05:08 PM
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Default W5 on Cruise Ship Crime

Good show on cruise ship crime "Cruising for trouble". Hopefully the cruise industry stops covering up and takes positive action. http://www.ctv.ca/wfive
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Old December 13th, 2007, 05:27 PM
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It appears the last sentence of that article refutes much of the rest of the article's claims.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_G
It appears the last sentence of that article refutes much of the rest of the article's claims.
The last sentence says "if something goes wrong, your on your own" I think that is pretty much in line with the article.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 05:33 PM
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I read the first paragraph, and didn't read any further. If the rest is as untrue as the first, it isn't worth reading.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_G
It appears the last sentence of that article refutes much of the rest of the article's claims.
The last sentence says "if something goes wrong, your on your own" I think that is pretty much in line with the article.
I mis-stated. I meant the last paragraph that says most will go and have no trouble.
No one says there isn't a possibility of trouble on a cruise. Anywhere you put 3 or 4 thousand people together, there's a chance. I just don't buy the idea that a cruise is worse than anywhere else. In fact, I believe them to be somewhat safer than most other ways to vacate.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 06:01 PM
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I saw the report on TV and I agreed with it. Canadians in particular are on their own as are any non USA citizen. Look bottom line is, if you saw the whole report, its very easy to cruise now, and many people go on them, and not all of them are nice people and simply security has not caught up to the amount of passengers that travel today on ships. No use to say there are no problems, it is only important to recognize what they are so that way you can try and change them for the better. There is alot of alcohol on board as well and that causes trouble. There was a discussion earlier on the baord regaring this when it first came out, some objected to "entrapping" people, I personally made it known then it was the same as entrapping a child sex predator, It showed clearly people do approach passengers and I dont care if she was drop dead pretty, the cruise lines say it never ever happens, well it does, so lets get heads together and figure out how to deal with it.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_G
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_G
It appears the last sentence of that article refutes much of the rest of the article's claims.
The last sentence says "if something goes wrong, your on your own" I think that is pretty much in line with the article.
I mis-stated. I meant the last paragraph that says most will go and have no trouble.
No one says there isn't a possibility of trouble on a cruise. Anywhere you put 3 or 4 thousand people together, there's a chance. I just don't buy the idea that a cruise is worse than anywhere else. In fact, I believe them to be somewhat safer than most other ways to vacate.
Probably correct, but when it does happen, the cruise line's first response, is to avoid liability, not for justice. That is what the cruise line has to overcome, either by self-regulation or outside regulation. If you watch the whole program, a lot of the crimes onboard are committed by crew members, and they know at most, they will loose there job and get sent back to a 3rd world country, never prosecuted. If they were regulated in such a way as the company was protected from litigation in these situation as long as they conducted a reasonably though investigation and presented the results and suspect in question to a US law enforcement agency on return to a US port, it would go a long way to reduce the ability of sexual predators to escape unpunished.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye
Probably correct, but when it does happen, the cruise line's first response, is to avoid liability, not for justice. That is what the cruise line has to overcome, either by self-regulation or outside regulation. If you watch the whole program, a lot of the crimes onboard are committed by crew members, and they know at most, they will loose there job and get sent back to a 3rd world country, never prosecuted. If they were regulated in such a way as the company was protected from litigation in these situation as long as they conducted a reasonably though investigation and presented the results and suspect in question to a US law enforcement agency on return to a US port, it would go a long way to reduce the ability of sexual predators to escape unpunished.
I agree but it is mostly the same at private resorts. Something happens, the resort goes into protection mode, usually. However, at least there are law agencies that can investigate there. Problem is the ships are mostly in international waters and no one wants to claim responsibility I suppose. Doesn't appear to be any real clear solution, although, the lines should be striving for something.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:47 AM
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It is true that US citizens do have the guarantee that any crime involving them on a cruise ship will be reported to the FBI, a federal agency, the article is also correct in largely assuming most local police agencies in the "next port of call" won't take any action for a crime committed on the high seas.

It is up to the Canadain government to enact laws similar to what the US has done to put a federal policing agency jurisdiction over crimes at sea.

I do have to object to the "statistics" the article used, especially their claim that they came from the cruise lines. This statement, " the chances of being sexually assaulted on a cruise ship were about 50 per cent higher than on land. " has been shown repeatedly to be incorrect, and it was first put forth by Ross Klein who is a self-appointed cruise industry critic.

The figures provided by the cruise lines were verified by the same person/agency who compilies crime statistics for the US Bureau of Crime Statistics and his conclusion is that you are far safer for all crimes, including sexual assault on a cruise ship than you are on land. Sexual crimes, of varying degrees of egregiousness, (the vast majority not qualifying as rape) are at the top of the list of crimes on ships, however.

While I sympathize with all victims, I do object to stories that exagerate the risk factor just to try to add add meat to their message. It isn't meat, its empty fillerm and it only takes away from the true issue of concern; lack of protection for Canadian citizens by their government.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
It is true that US citizens do have the guarantee that any crime involving them on a cruise ship will be reported to the FBI, a federal agency, the article is also correct in largely assuming most local police agencies in the "next port of call" won't take any action for a crime committed on the high seas.

It is up to the Canadain government to enact laws similar to what the US has done to put a federal policing agency jurisdiction over crimes at sea.

I do have to object to the "statistics" the article used, especially their claim that they came from the cruise lines. This statement, " the chances of being sexually assaulted on a cruise ship were about 50 per cent higher than on land. " has been shown repeatedly to be incorrect, and it was first put forth by Ross Klein who is a self-appointed cruise industry critic.

The figures provided by the cruise lines were verified by the same person/agency who compilies crime statistics for the US Bureau of Crime Statistics and his conclusion is that you are far safer for all crimes, including sexual assault on a cruise ship than you are on land. Sexual crimes, of varying degrees of egregiousness, (the vast majority not qualifying as rape) are at the top of the list of crimes on ships, however.

While I sympathize with all victims, I do object to stories that exagerate the risk factor just to try to add add meat to their message. It isn't meat, its empty fillerm and it only takes away from the true issue of concern; lack of protection for Canadian citizens by their government.
The fact is though, even if you are protected by the FBI, that the cruise lines will not investigated it or preserve the crime scene if a crew member is involved. If there is no secured evidence, there is little the FBI or any police agency can do. Cruise lines also send the crew member home, and they do it to avoid liability. They need to do more to help victims and prosecute the suspects, and not just cover there own ass.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 01:10 PM
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I couldnt disagree more . While it is true that with US citizens, crimes have to be reported, in fact very little gets done.........for Canadian and US citizens. What is needed is laws to cover all people and cruise lines to report and not cover up issues. When you have blood cleaned up before an investigation and crime scenes not preserved, that is wrong. Just as wrong is cruise lines repeated denial that crew don't approach passengers. Yes, they are not supposed to, but they do. I like cruising, I will continue to cruise, but I can tell you, when I was sitting alone, I was approached by a crew member, I was and am far from a beauty, and I suspect thats why I was aproached, maybe he thought this could be easy, what ever, he did something that cruise lines say never happens..........and no I was not drunk, I dont drink. I had a chuckle when I read the real concern is the lack of protection of Canadians by their government, as if any ones citizens has raised concerns it is the USA citizens who say they are not protected. Fine, you have laws that have mandatory reporting, well, thats all fine, but reporting and investigating, doing something, is two differant matters.

People have to use common sense. yes, there is far to much drinking on board, if you would never leave your purse alone at home, dont so it on a ship, you should not be walking out alone at night etc etc, same rules apply to personal safety on a ship as is on land. You especially have to be vigilant on a ship because you cannot just call 911. Security yes, but after having called them myself for drunk college kids puking in the hallway and causing a ruccass, well................we are not talking the brightest bulbs in the box.

Thats just my opinion.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 03:14 PM
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Actually, things have changed considerably and all the CLIA cruise lines now have operating procedures in place to deal with crimes on board very effectively with he rights and needs of the victim in mind.

This is a result of a signed agreement the cruise lines made wit Congress to develop procedures. If a crime involving a US citizen occurs the ship is instructed tro seal the scene immediately and call the home office in Miami. The reason they call the home office instead of the FBI directly is because it is more efficent to have one person in charge of procedure for the entire company.

That person will notify the FBI and then direct the ship on what steps to take, including preserving evidence, aiding the victim, notifying family, rape kits if required. The ship will be notified what action the FBI decides to take and all lines have agreed to make their ships accesible to FBI at the next port or when they return to the homeport at the FBIs discretion. They will even hold the ship in a foreign port if they are directed to.

Keep in mind, it is in the interest of the cruise line to cooperate. Yes, in the old days there was an unspoken agreement between crewmembers that what happened there stayed there. This is exactly why the companies are now handling crime investigations from the mainland now. It is not up to the captain to decide whether or not he is more concerned about his safety record than the victim. The cruise lines are the ones who get the blame for what happens on ships, and so they have cracked down on their crews to make sure renegade behavior is not happening.

It would be a good idea for Canada to set up similar guidelines. We often forget Canada is a separate country and they have to deal with things like this on their own.

There is still of course a great deal of personal responsibility needed for one's own safety on a cruise ship, but cruising is still by far the safest vacation you can take, including crime statistics. The suggestion that you are safer on land than on a cruise ship is simply not true. Crime is lower on cruise ships than on "land" and especially big cities.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter
It is true that US citizens do have the guarantee that any crime involving them on a cruise ship will be reported to the FBI, a federal agency, the article is also correct in largely assuming most local police agencies in the "next port of call" won't take any action for a crime committed on the high seas..
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Old December 16th, 2007, 07:19 AM
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DH and I have cruised before, but this will be the first cruise for our daughters, who are in their 20's. Both are used to big city life and precautions that need to be taken. Is there anything else they need to be aware of when cruising?
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Old December 16th, 2007, 11:00 AM
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Yes, just use comon sence. Use the same rules you would when you are any where else on land. Dont think because you are on a cruise you can walk alone at night, or leave your purse alone, or leave a drink alone, use the same comon sence rules you always do and all should be fine and your daughter will I am sure have a WONDERFUL time!
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Old December 16th, 2007, 02:02 PM
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http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/...ise-092407.cfm

This is our article on safety precautions at sea.

I think it is significant that you will that almost all articles that talk about crime on cruise ships refer to cases that happened in 1995 or before. Even the reference to the George Smith case (blood being cleaned up before the investigation) was in 1995. In that case the cruise line was told by the Turkish authorities who investigated that it was OK to clean it up.

So - there you have a case where the crime scene was sealed, an outside country did investigate, and the cruise line cooperated. I am all too aware of the media bias against the cruise line in that case and I honestly just don't get it at all.

The couple was on their honeymoon night, she (Jennifer Hagel Smith) kicked him in the b@||$ and left with another man about 3:00 am and was found passed out in a hallway at the other end of the ship 2 1/2 hours later (taken back to her cabin in a wheelchair). Meanwhile, earlier (last seen) he was so drunk he couldn't hold a cigarette in his mouth.

She woke up the next morning with him missing and went to her massage appt. 90 minutes early -- not even commenting that her husband was missing. Does any of this seem suspicious to you?

As soon as other passengers saw the blood the ship sealed the scene, contacted Turkish authorities and gave JHS constant companionship and relocated her.

When she was on Oprah the meddling TV host demanded the cruise line apologize to JHS. "I can't believe how they treated me" she whined. Umm, how about how you treated your husband?

Its ridiculous. Ship employees are regular people, not CSI TV-show investigators. You have to understand that the cruise lines don't have policemen on each ship. They have security whose job is to keep the peace and aid authorities, the same as at a Las Vegas hotel, etc. But they are at sea, and logistically I think they are doing the best they can do.

The laws people want enacted wouldn't provide anything more than the ships are already doing under these new guidelines. If you put investigators on every ship they would be doing nothing most of the time, maybe one or two cases/year, plus you run into all kinds of jurisdiction issues.

That is exactly why the cruise lines have taken steps to create procedures to deal with things like this. This stuff rarely happened at sea before, but now you have 15 million people cruising a year - yes there is bound to be some crime. But as said - the same common sense that applies on land applies on ships. We have written articles about staying safe on ships.

The crime issue on ships is a small reality, but you are far safer on a ship than any other vacation. There is a LOT of sensationalism out there on this topic and unfortunately many of the news reports get their "facts" from the wrong places - people who want to profit from suing the cruise lines, for example.
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Old December 16th, 2007, 02:53 PM
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There is no "guarantee" that a major shipboard crime will be reported to the FBI. That is what is supposed to happen. But the Deputy Assistant Director of the FBI himself said in September, 2007, "it is my belief that CLIA member cruise lines are generally making a good faith effort to report all crimes". A belief. Generally. A good faith effort. That is hardly a guarantee!

I suspect the crime rate shipboard is lower than some places on land. But nobody really knows, because we don't have accurate statistics. We have beliefs, as Salvador Hernandez, the Deputy Assistant Director of the FBI, pointed out. When a cruise line covers up a crime, nobody (literally) except the victim and the cruise line knows.

Many here are missing the point of concern. It isn't that there is a lot of crime on cruise ships. It is when there IS a crime, that it won't be reported or investigated. You might live in the safest city in the world, but when a crime happens, the police come and investigate. You can't count on that on any cruise ship, no matter how safe they are.

Cheers, Aidan
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Old December 16th, 2007, 03:38 PM
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Thank you for the link to your article on safety precautions at sea. It was very good, but seemed to pertain primarily to those cruising solo. Does anyone know of a good article on safety precautions at sea for the general cruising community?
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