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Old July 15th, 2008, 12:09 AM
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Default It's Time To Scrap The Navy

Today’s United States Navy is a technological wonder. The command center aboard an aircraft carrier can pull together data from aircraft, satellites, and the radars of all of its screening ships. The Navy’s command centers computers are networked together and can see all of the world all at once, in real time.

The Navy’s surface and subsurface ships can fire cruise missiles and hit targets from hundreds of miles away. The Navy’s F-18 attack aircraft can drop 1000-pound bombs with GPS precision.

So what does all of this mean? The United States Navy can see the world, and attack selected targets with cruise missiles and aircraft. A few dozen attack aircraft dropping 1000-pound bombs, and more cruise missiles with 500-pound warheads.

A few bombs for a few minutes. Whoo hoo…….

Recently, Iranian gunboats harassed Navy ships as they passed through the Strait of Hormuz. Iranian gunboats made high-speed passes -- and the Navy warships pointed machine guns at them.

In 2008, United States warships responded to hostile vessels by pointing small arms at them.

In 1942, nobody harassed the United States Navy. If hostile vessels had threatened Dad’s ship, heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29, they’d have been answered with a 9-gun salvo of 8” rifle fire.

Today’s navy is too much brains and not enough brawn.

I look at today’s naval vessels and I have trouble figuring out what they do. They have lots of antennas…….

Lots of antennas….. That’ll send shivers down your spine……..

High-tech isn’t the answer. Radars and satellites aren’t the answer. 9 August 1942, off the coast of Savo Island, the United States had a decided technological advantage over the Japanese. The U.S. Navy employed fire control radars, and the Japanese employed searchlights and binoculars.

At Savo Island, the United States Navy, engaged by the Japanese Navy, lost 4 heavy cruisers, the Japanese suffering but a scratch. The United States lost heavy cruisers USS Astoria CA 34, USS Vincennes CA 44, HMAS Canberra, and USS Quincy CA 39. High-tech vs. low-tech – and high-tech got its butt kicked.

Of course, history never repeats itself…….

It’s time to scrap our navy. Ships with antennas serve no purpose. I’m sure our adversaries recoil in fear of antennas…….

In Afghanistan, United States Navy aircraft buzz about the mountains, drop a few 1000-pound GPS guided bombs and depart. The Taliban retreat into caves, and wait for the F-18’s to leave.

In 1942, a Northampton-class heavy cruiser could bombard the enemy indefinitely. In 1942, the enemy could expect to be under United States Navy 8” rifle fire, not for minutes but for weeks. At Tulagi, USS Chicago CA 29, while off shore, had 8” ammunition barged to her, and maintained 8” shore bombardment for several days.

The Taliban is advancing against NATO in Afghanistan. Yesterday they attacked and overran a United States Marine firebase, killing 9 Marines

I wonder how far they’d advance under United States heavy guns......?
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Old July 15th, 2008, 01:12 AM
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We need to bring the battleships back. Can you imagine them sitting in the Gulf of Oman and lobbing car sized loads across Pakistan and Iran to targets in Afghanistan? Now that would also be impressive.
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Old July 15th, 2008, 02:54 PM
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I preface with full disclosure that I am former Navy.

The issue today is that the armed forces are being restrained by politics.

The Navy could get it done if they were allowed to....with a wee bit of help from the Air Force !

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Old July 15th, 2008, 05:30 PM
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with full disclosure I am ex Air Force and my son is active Air Force

Phil and Liz...we do our "share"

the mission is different today and we have to adapted ..and we will....after the mess in Vietnam, no one fears us
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Old August 12th, 2008, 04:57 AM
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You know, Hollywood writers must be making this stuff up. Pirates hijacking ships. It’s Pirates of the Caribbean, starring Johnny Depp, coming soon to a big-screen near you.

Except it’s pirates of Somalia – and it’s deadly real…..

Armed Somali pirates routinely assault, and commandeer vessels of all sorts. Somali pirates recently commandeered a freighter off the coast of Somalia and held the crew for ransom. And it’s not just commercial shipping. A cruise ship, fending for itself recently, drove off pirates with sonic weapons, receiving RPG fire in return.

NATO, aware of the problem, dispatched a French frigate, bristling with antennas to deal with the situation.

As a result, according to USA Today, armed hijackings are down 30+ percent

It wasn’t always this way….

In early 1775, the United States Continental Congress debated the merits of a United States navy. The debate centering upon the wisdom of confronting the World’s preeminent naval power, the British Navy.

As the Continental Congress dilly-dallied around, United States General George Washington, took command of three armed schooners to confront enemy vessels threatening the coast of Massachusetts, 13 October 1775.

An audacious endeavor, confronting the British Navy with 3 armed schooners…..

And so, 13 October 1775, the United States Navy was born. 3 armed schooners sailed out to defend the coast of Massachusetts. And these audacious Americans didn’t fool around – they pointed real weapons at the enemy.

United States merchant ships under predation from Barbary Pirates, Congress ordered the construction of six frigates, 27 March 1794. Three years later, 3 frigates were commissioned, USS United States, USS Constellation, and USS Constitution.

United States Navy warships operated off the coast of North Africa, and confronted Barbary Pirates, swiftly defeating them.

Soon after, the United States Navy confronted the British Navy during the War of 1812. The British had a decided numerical advantage; but the United States Navy was technologically superior. United States Navy frigates were constructed of Southern Live Oak, a wood so resistant to naval gunfire, that United States frigate, USS Constitution, receiving relentless cannon-fire undamaged, was dubbed, Old Ironsides. United States frigates were constructed longer, bow to stern, than their British counterparts, and were more stable gun platforms vis-*-vis the British. As the British ships bobbed about the Atlantic, United States frigates were able to maintain fire. As a result, the United States Navy scored significant victories against the British Navy.

The United States Navy was constructed and operated to defend the United States and its merchant ships from pirates. United States Navy frigates, constructed of Southern Live Oak, and being stable gun platforms, fired upon, and defeated Barbary Pirates.

Today, Somali pirates assault civilian shipping. Somali pirates assault cruise ships, and merchant ships off the coast of NE Africa, taking hostages.

NATO responds by dispatching a French Navy ship, armed with antennas. NATO further considers dispatching a United States Navy frigate bristling with antennas.

Ah yes, antennas – the scourge of pirates everywhere…...

NATO would be better served by dispatching a United States Navy frigate from 1797. In 1797, United States warships pointed weapons at enemy ships, and fired upon them…….

And so I ask you.

You’re enjoying the sunshine beside the pool on a cruise ship, sailing off the coast of NE Africa. You’re stretched out on your lounger, the pool band playing Bob Marley.

And pirates sail toward you at high-speed, threatening your ship.

Do you believe you’re safer with an escort ship armed with a high-speed satellite connection, or do you believe you’re safer with a United States Navy heavy cruiser?

Do you believe Somali pirates would be more deterred by state-of-the-art antennas?

Or by 9 – 8” rifles…….?
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Old August 12th, 2008, 07:53 AM
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well if a squad of Air Force F-22's showed up with my son in command ( mid air refueling)...I would be feeling pretty darn secure and pity the pirates
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Old August 12th, 2008, 08:32 AM
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Once again, with full disclosure,,I'm a MARINE, and I'm "Explosive Ordnance Disposal", so I pretty much know what's out there. I agree, that the only thing holding us back is being politically correct. (We wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings,,,you know.) If they'd let us, we (Marines, Navy, Air Force, and of course Army and Coast Guard) could Git-R-Done. I have absolutely no doubt.

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Old August 12th, 2008, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: It's Time To Scrap The Navy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
In 1942, nobody harassed the United States Navy.
Nobody except the Axis powers!

Cheers, Aidan
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Old August 12th, 2008, 10:08 AM
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Ken----Well said!
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Old August 13th, 2008, 05:38 AM
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I echo the overwhelming number of the above thoughts.

I would, however, like to add a caveat to your OP Mean Dean. At the Battle of Savo Island, some American CA's (Heavy Cruisers) had radar BUT it wasn't centrimetric radar. While the result of the battle was completely one sided and the Navy got it's tail end kicked there, we learned -- believe me we learned.

During the engagements of the Philipine Sea during the last major naval unit engagement of the war which was also conducted at night. American destroyers using Centrimetric Radar spotted and sent a 33,000 ton Jap battleship to Davy Jones's Locker with 21 inch torpedoes before fleeing the heavy guns of the battleships. Later that same evening and again using centrimetric radar, American Battleships with their modern 16" rifles that had pin point accuracy at over 20 miles and which wreaked almost unimaginable devastation for that period, in effect executed the Japanese battleships being used to rout the American Invasion of the Phillipines.

Believe me when I say that while it is not what we old timers refer to as traditional artillery, many of today's naval vessels pack a wallop (non nuclear mind you) that in some cases would boggle the mind of a WWII US Navy Battleship commander. The thing is, one actually is hard pressed to ascertain any "hardware" on many of the ships with all you see usually being those ubiquitous antennae. I'd say that just the ONE radar controlled GE Electric Cannon (of whatever variant they use on today's naval vessels) would probably be the practical equivalent of all the 30 & 40 MM Bofors and 20mm Oerlikons and twice as accurate. And that auto-fire radar controlled five inch mount for smaller targets is absolutely devastating.

But do I miss seeing those 55,000 ton behemoths with three gun 16" turrets? You betcha! Oh, and Mean Dean, here's a bit of trivia you're certainly to enjoy. Those 2,100 pound 16 inch projectiles unloaded by the Battleship New Jersey onto Iraq during Desert Storm were constructed in(insert drumroll here, please) NINETEEN AND FORTY-FOUR!

Todd
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Old August 13th, 2008, 07:48 AM
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Todd..great stuff..you should join us on the BLOG2NOLA cruise next Feb, and I will take you to the WW2 Museum that I know you would really enjoy the display of fire power
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Old August 13th, 2008, 09:31 AM
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Venice,

You have no idea how much I'd love to but alas, cruising this Februrary is not an option for the budget.

I last visited New Orleans in '67 when I was in the Air Force. It was only overnight and at that age I devoted the majority of my time (as well you could probably imagine) to such tourist sites as Pat O'Brien's, Pete Fountain's, and other similar museums located in the French Quarter.

When the D-Day Museum was constructed I told Fran we were going, come hell or high water. I had even got to the point, a couple of months prior to Katrina, to researching adequate albeit inexpensive lodging, etc.

Following Katrina when I heard that the museum had suffered not only significant storm damage but horrific vandalism by a bunch of animals (whom many apologists even today would claim were only looking for "food") that I became not merely angry but enraged and swore that I would NEVER visit a city whose inhabitants could desecrate such a museum!

Of course we mellow and I have just recently been wondering if it were rebuilt. I could of course find out by going on line but I was afraid of what I would discover.

Could you possibly, Venice, tell me if indeed the museum has been reconstructed at least in great part, to it's former glory and especially if they were able to repair the Higgins Boat (LCVP) that actually had to be constructed for the museum? You may or may not be aware that Dwight Eisenhower used to say that Andrew Higgins was the man who won the war! He certainly employed a lot of New Orleans!

I may be visiting New Orleans after all!

Todd
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Old August 13th, 2008, 07:31 PM
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mehawk,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
We need to bring the battleships back. Can you imagine them sitting in the Gulf of Oman and lobbing car sized loads across Pakistan and Iran to targets in Afghanistan? Now that would also be impressive.
Let's go for the modern version of the battleship, built on the hull of a nuclear aircraft carrier. The flare goes away but middle segment of the flight deck remains, but gets raised about 1 1/2 levels to make room for a vehicle deck below the hanger deck. It also could have a dry well deck capable of operating two air cushion landing craft (LCAC's in Navy parlance).

* Weapons
>> Main Battery: 3x3 16"/50 cal gun turrets (2 forward, 1 aft)
>> Secondary Battery: 4x1 5"/62 cal dual purpose rapid fire guns (2 forward, 2 aft)
>> Missile Launchers: 64x8 VLS (512 tubes) for Standard, Tomahawk, and VLA ("Vertical Launch ASROC") missiles

* Air Group
>> Attack Squadran: 10 AV-8x Advanced Harriers
>> Fighter Squadron: 10 F-35B Joint Strike Fighters (V/STOL Variant)
>> Auxilliary Squadron: 4 EV-22x AEW and 6 KV-22x Tankers (MV-22 Ossprey variants)
>> Heavy Transport Squadron: 8 CH-53x Heavy Transport Helicopters
>> Utility Squadron: 4 MH-60R (sea control) and 6 MH-60S (SAR/medium transport/minesweeping) helicipters

* Marine Detachment (MARDET)
>> Batallion/Regiment Level Command Staff
>> Infantry Company (3 Rifle Platoons, 1 Weapons Platoon)
>> Special Operations Company (Recon Platoon, FAC/NGFS Platoon, Combat Engineer Platoon (EOD Capable), MP Platoon)
>> Air Operations Company (Terminal Air Control Platoon, Airfield Maintenance Platoon, Ground Handling Platoon, Air Defense Platoon)
>> Service and Support Company (Motor Transport Platoon, Supply Platoon, Landing Support Platoon, Maintenance Platoon)
>> Headquarters & Service Platoon

Basically, the package is similar to a special purpose Marine Air/Ground Task Force (MAGTF) with the ship's air group supplying the air component and the ship supplying the heavy firepower. The MARDET is a pocket landing force capable of controlling and coordinating massive firepower, and thus capable of amphibious raids and many other special missions.

Norm.
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Old August 13th, 2008, 07:56 PM
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Todd..not only is it rebuilt it is remodeled and expanded and it is awesome...you and your bride must come and you can stay at my home if you like...since my son is active duty USAF (test pilot primarily flies the F-15 and F-22 these days)..you can have the AF "discount (no charge0

please reconsider and come visit our city
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Old August 13th, 2008, 09:39 PM
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Venice,

You are too kind and you truly can't know how much I appreciate your offer.

I shall say to you here and now, while whether or not we would impose on your southern hospitality we'll leave for further discussion, we will definitely come to New Orleans if the Good Lord wills it and we both stay healthy. It will not be this year probably, but believe me, you have really pumped me up and we will be coming!

I'm very tired right now but first thing in the morning, I'm going to get back on the net without being afraid of what I'll find!

Bless you Venice, and thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Todd
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Old August 14th, 2008, 02:30 PM
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The U.S.S. Constitution, as a combat vessel, carried 48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men. This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea. She carried no evaporators (fresh water distillers). However, let it be noted that according to her log, "On July 27, 1798, the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallonsof fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum.
Her mission: To destroy and harass English shipping."
Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum. Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November. She provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine. On 18 November, she set sail for England. In the ensuing days she defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchantmen, salvaging only the rum aboard each.
By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless, and though unarmed, she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland. Her landing party captured a whiskey distillery and transferred 40,000 gallonsof single malt Scotch aboard by dawn.
The U.S.S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February 1799, with no cannon shot, no food, no powder, NO rum, NO wine, NO whiskey and 48,600 gallons of stagnant water.

Could it be we are engaging in sober reflection when drunken rage might serve us better?
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Old August 14th, 2008, 05:01 PM
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when did the US Navy do away with it's provisioning of a daily rum ration to the sailors ?
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Old August 14th, 2008, 06:33 PM
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Looks like my few lines were maybe too violent or too political and got shot right out of the air.
That's ok--really--- I shouldn't have mentioned that war is about death and destruction--my bad !!
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Old August 18th, 2008, 06:32 AM
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4 June 1942, off the coast of Midway Island, everything changed.

The artillery ship became obsolete…….

The ship that had served so well, for so long, was no longer needed. A new toy had arrived.

And like a young child, the United States Navy became infatuated with its new toy, the aircraft carrier.

Air power has a devastating effect upon surface ships. Even the most powerful battleship ever deployed, Imperial Japanese Navy battleship, Yamato, was quickly and efficiently dispatched by carrier-borne air power.

The United States Navy learned the lessons of Midway Island all too well, constructing its entire blue-water navy around the aircraft carrier. The United States Navy today is conceived and deployed, with the aircraft carrier as the sole offensive combat operations platform, and every other surface ship having no other function but to protect the aircraft carrier.

For the first time in its history, outside the aircraft carrier, United States Navy surface ships have no offensive combat capability whatsoever…….

On occasion, however, the United States Navy has enjoyed the benefit of a heavy gun artillery ship…..

During the Viet Nam War, a United States Navy warship sailing offshore was threatened by North Vietnamese patrol boats. The North Vietnamese patrol boats warned the United States Navy warship to withdraw immediately or be fired upon.

The United States Navy warship went to general quarters, and trained out 9-16” rifles. Commanding Officer, United States Navy warship sent to Commanding Officer, North Vietnamese patrol boats this message: “This is the battleship USS New Jersey – you may fire when ready…..”

Whenever the dirty work needs to be done, artillery ships get the call. During the First Gulf War, United States Navy battleships were called upon for shore bombardment.

United States Navy Iowa-class battleships, USS Missouri BB 63 and USS Wisconsin BB 64, maintained shore bombardment upon the enemy. Not for minutes. Not for hours.

But for days……

Battleship USS Wisconsin BB 64 fired 528 2700-pound main battery projectiles, delivering over 1 million pounds of ammunition on time and on target.

Battleship USS Missouri BB 63 fired 305 2700-pound main battery projectiles in sustained shore bombardment.

Iraqi targets receiving United States Navy 16” rifle fire weren’t destroyed – they were obliterated…….

For the first time in human history, Iraqi land forces, receiving sustained United States Navy 16” rifle fire, surrendered to a United States surface warship, battleship USS Wisconsin BB 64.

At no time has history ever recorded anyone surrendering to a United States Navy antenna ship……..

It’s time to scrap the United States Navy………

Every antenna ship. Every antenna ship afloat. Every antenna ship on order.

It’s time for a return to the artillery ship. Ships that point weapons at the enemy. Ships that train out large-caliber rifles. Ships that fire large-caliber projectiles.

The Navy argues that artillery ships aren’t feasible because no one still knows how to operate large-caliber naval artillery rifles

You have got to be kidding me……..

Dad, at 86, and a Chief Petty Officer, and gun captain, turret #3, heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29, explained to me precisely how to operate an 8” rifle.

With the breach still closed, you actuate the pneumatic system to blow out any cinders from the rifle. Next, you open the breach. Next, the 8” shell comes up from the magazine. You lay it on the loader, and ram it up into the rifle. Next, the 110-pound bags of cordite come up from the magazine. You lay them out on the loader, and slowly place them up behind the shell. On 16” guns, the bags of cordite come out of the magazine from inside the turret, alongside the loader. Either way, the bags of cordite get placed up inside the rifle behind the shell. Next, you close the breach, and set the primer. The primer is a 30.06 hunting rifle shell. The bridge will fire the shell downrange. But if for some reason the bridge isn’t able to fire the round, you can fire the round yourself as gun captain. You pull the lanyard adjacent to the primer to fire the gun manually. After the round is downrange, you actuate the pneumatic system, and repeat the process for subsequent rounds.

The Navy argues that artillery ships aren’t feasible because no one still knows how to operate large-caliber naval artillery rifles…..

You have got to be kidding me………

It’s time to scrap the United States Navy……

If the best we can offer against the enemy is antennas; if the best we can offer against pirates is antennas, it’s time we surrendered.

The United States Navy used to point weapons at the enemy. The United States Navy used to pound the enemy with large-caliber rifle fire.

But it’s a new world. It’s a new war. The war on terror….

United States Navy surface ships sail off the coast. United States Navy ships fly the Stars and Stripes from their mainmasts. And United States Navy surface ships are harassed…….

The high-tech war with the former Soviet Union has passed. No other nation on Earth offers high-tech resistance to the United States Navy.

But terrorists aren’t interested in high-tech. Terrorists deal in low-tech. Off-the-shelf stuff that grandma could buy. Except that this grandma has no cajones. This grandma won’t meet us on the battlefield. This grandma flies no flag…..

Any ship that flies no colors has no honor, and isn’t worth the spit to wet its deck.

Every United States Navy warship since 1797 has flown colors from its mainmast. No United States Navy warship has struck its colors to an enemy combatant – ever……….

9 August 1942, United States heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29 flew colors into battle at Savo Island.



It’s time to regain our honor. It’s time to scrap our antennas. It’s time to pound the enemy.

It’s time deploy artillery ships. Heavy cruiser after heavy cruiser, battleship after battleship.

It’s time to stop fooling around………..
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Old August 18th, 2008, 06:47 AM
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Dean,

Maybe the delivery systems have changed, maybe we can put far more ordinance on target by other methods.

Even if that is all true and being a big time student of the military, I have no reason whatsoever to believe it isn't, I too still miss the Battlewagons.

What people have lost sight of is just the PRESENCE of the New Jersey, Wisconsin or any similar vessel off the coast of a potentially hostile enemy nation, put the fear of God into them. Talk about a tool of intimidation! Just one broadside from those 9 16" rifles will literally send several entire neighborhoods of multi-story buildings sailing into the sky.

But my friend, sadly those days are sailing into the past and those such as we who love those ships, are as well.

Todd
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Old August 18th, 2008, 04:17 PM
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no wonder I live in Gripes.

Oh my opinion is I dont understand the comments given the title, as it appears the Navy is not dead or needs scrapped, they are actually key today or is that your point, dont know, as I dont want something I can watch easier on the History Channel

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Old August 22nd, 2008, 12:14 AM
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When antenna ships can do this, I'll send the Navy a check myself........









(United States Navy Battleship USS Missouri BB 63, firing main battery projectiles, off the coast of Okinawa, 1989.)
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Old August 22nd, 2008, 04:49 AM
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I've always been partial to the submarine (coming from an Air Force type person)..

which nation has the 2nd largest navy and how do the number of ships compare to the USN ?
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Old September 10th, 2008, 06:09 AM
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You know, this is bordering on the ridiculous…….

In the wake of the Cold War, the United States has allied itself with several former Soviet Union republics. The Republic of Georgia, being one among many.

8 August 2008, hostilities broke out between Georgia, and its province of South Ossetia. Georgia Armed Forces fired upon Ossetia forces; and Russia dispatched armed forces ostensibly to defend its former province. Russian invaded and occupied South Ossetia; and fired upon Georgian territory.

14 August 2008, United States President, George W. Bush committed the United States Navy to the defense of Georgia.

The United States Navy dispatched the United States Coast Guard cutter, Dallas WHEC 716, laden with relief supplies, which docked at a Georgian port. Additionally, the United States Navy dispatched landing craft ship, USS Mount Whitney LCC 20, delivering 17 tons of aid, including 4000 blankets, to the Georgian port of Poti. In support of its unarmed sisters, the United States Navy dispatched antenna ship, USS McFaul DDG 74.

Several Russian Navy ships assumed an aggressive posture nearby.

United States Navy surface ships are designed and built to defend aircraft carriers from air attack. They are not designed or built to conduct surface combat operations.

United States Navy ships land relief supplies at Georgian ports. Russian Navy surface ships cruise nearby.

And all that stands between them is a United States Navy antenna ship.

You’ve got to be kidding me……

In 1942, all that would stand between United States relief ships and Russian Navy ships would be United States Navy 8” rifles…..

It’s time to stop fooling around.

The Congress has dilly-dallied around, funding this failed project, after that failed project. All the while, United States Navy heavy gun surface combat ships lie littered around the United States.

As museum pieces……

United States Navy heavy cruiser, USS Salem CA 139, Quincy, Massachusetts. United States Navy battleship, USS New Jersey BB 62, Camden, New Jersey. United States Navy battleship, USS Missouri BB 63, Pearl Harbor, Honolulu, Hawaii. United States Navy battleship, USS Wisconsin BB 64, Norfolk, Virginia.

And particularly galling – United States Navy battleship, USS Iowa BB 61, anchored as a derelict, Mare Island, San Francisco, California.

The United States Navy can’t figure out what to do. The Congress has funded failed project after failed project. And the answer is just sitting there…….

It’s time again for artillery ships. Not Zumwalt ships with expensive single small-caliber guns. It’s time again for low-tech, low-cost, large-caliber bruisers. It’s time to stop fooling around.

It’s time for the United States Navy to deploy actual warships. Warships that point large-caliber rifles at the enemy.

The United States Navy complains that it has not the personnel to operate large-caliber rifles.

You’ve got to be kidding me……

Dad, 87 this month, could teach a class. Dad, Chief Petty Officer, and gun captain, left gun, turret #3, United States Navy heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29, fired hundreds of 8” rifle rounds downrange. He put 8” projectiles through target barges off Pearl Harbor in 1939, and through Imperial Japanese Navy heavy cruisers at Savo Island, 9 August 1942.

9 August 1942, under heavy large-caliber rifle fire, United States Navy heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29 fired 8” main battery projectiles against Imperial Japanese Navy heavy cruiser, Kako, scoring the only United States Navy main battery hit in the battle of Savo Island.

The United States Navy complains that it has not the personnel to operate large-caliber rifles………

I asked Dad the other day, what he thought of the United States Navy getting pushed around these days.

He told me: “Put me in an 8” rifle.........”
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Old September 12th, 2008, 04:29 PM
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"14 August 2008, United States President, George W. Bush committed the United States Navy to the defense of Georgia"

WHY?

Oh and it never actually happened, this USA defence of the country of Georgia in the ex USSR republics.

Now why.... and if that was all true, its actually not,,,why would he do that. You have a choice of two answers:

1/ He cares deeply about the freedom of the people of Georgia in this ex soviet union republic and their human rights as people

2/ They have massive oil supplies.

Sorry this is all dream world

mmm
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Old September 12th, 2008, 07:39 PM
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Great posts and a great read! :-) Living next door to the Navy Base at Great Lakes for over 35+ years and now moving to Manitowoc, seems I've never been far from the Navy and its history!!!

Manitowoc is known for its Maritime Museum and the fact submarines were built here during WWII, at least 27 I believe. They were barged down through Chicago to the Mississippi River. Of course, these were not the big high tech ones of today, but they did the job!

I say take the politics out of it and let the military do its job, they know what they're doing, and very capable of getting it done.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 09:20 PM
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After studying war and things military for well over fifty years, there are a few conclusions I've reached.

1. The country's leaders should tell the military what they want them to accomplish and then listen to the military's response of what they can or cannot do. Then when a consensus is achieved and a viable plan set forth, the executive and legislative branch should, for all practicable purposes (a) butt out to a great degree and (b) don't start changing goals midway through the first quarter. Never should the military claim they can do something that they probably can't (it has occurred), neither should government expect the military to do something for which they are ill equipped.

2. Be very careful when trying to determine the influences governing a goverhment's policies until at the least a decade (and often several decades) following the period being examined. For an opinionated but untrained observer (untrained meaning not privy to the integral aspects of the issue) to do so and then to expound upon the reasons for one's observations, can eventually prove most embarrassing to the individual voicing the opinion (for again, that is all they are doing anyway). The chances for that person being correct probably equate to a casual slot player walking out of a casino with fifty grand in their pocket.

Todd
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Old September 13th, 2008, 03:42 PM
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Sorry Susancruzs, you are advocating taking politics out of an out of country conflict that our arm forces will now take part in, did I read that right?

They, "the forces" don’t decide to sail from the Great Lakes to somewhere else in the world for the fun of it,,,politicians send them



"I say take the politics out of it and let the military do its job, they know what they're doing, and very capable of getting it done."

Sorry but you are very mixed up here, the military runs "wherever" on the politicians orders, they don’t make it up by themselves.
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Old September 13th, 2008, 06:29 PM
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You're right, but I was just saying maybe they should. I won 't comment further.
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Old September 13th, 2008, 07:32 PM
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Relating to Susan's post Dayvid, you both are correct.

As per your statement, yes, the military goes wherever the government tells it to.

But there again, I believe I'm correct in stating that Susan's point could be that once that is done and the goals are set, were the government to micromanage the operation, is tantamount to a CEO of an automobile manufacturer to go down to the assembly line and start making changes concerning how that modle is being built (especially when the CEO may not have the foggiest idea how a modern car is actually constructed).

In short, it just doesn't work.

Todd
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