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Old September 7th, 2008, 04:25 AM
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Default Global Warming My A *&^%$^*

with Ike looming out there, a major concern being raised in New Orleans is about the ability of the citizens to do another evacuation so close..folks are tired, shell shocked, still without power, hungry, broke and frankly stressed out

folks who have lived here all their lives indicated they have never seem so many major hurricanes in their lives and wonder if the whole "global warming" theory is what is causing these intense storms

I now must start an "evacuation fund" on a per paycheck basis which of course dilutes my "cruise fund", which means I will have to cut back on cruising

folks don't realize how expensive evacuations have become and to have to possibly do it back to back like this is a deal breaker for many

does global warming have anything to do with these intense hurricanes ?
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Old September 7th, 2008, 08:17 AM
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Venice,

Can't answer your question Venice and don't believe anyone else can give you a definitive answer as well. One forecaster says this is shaping up to be the worst season since the mid 50's when, he said, the season was just as active. It must be horrendous living under such a cloud as must you and your neighbors. It's been 48 years since I've been through a hurricane and remember well living without power or water (we lived on a lake with a well) for four or five days if I remember correctly.

Thank Heaven that it appears this morning that Ike is going to head in a more westerly direction and avoid a direct hit on Florida. That may, however, not bode well for those in Southeast Texas. the Turks and Caicos are being hammered this morning and its likely a good part of the length of Cuba may be next.

Todd
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Old September 7th, 2008, 08:31 AM
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I seriously doubt that "global warming" has anything to do with the current hurricane season. As you recall, in '04 we had 3 or 4 hurricanes pass over us here in central Florida,,,,and there have been NONE since then, until this year. I think it's just nature.......I've lived here in Florida since 1966, and it's always been like this. Either we get a whole bunch of storms in one season,,,,,or none at all.

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Old September 7th, 2008, 08:38 AM
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I do believe that it has. Weather patterns have changed dramatically since I was a child and if science says warm waters feed hurricianes and increase their strength , then logic says to me if it is warmer in the water, there will be possibly moe and often more intense hurricaines.
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Old September 7th, 2008, 10:07 AM
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I think it is also just nature. Just like some of my bad students, now have names for their bad behaviors, storms now have a name.
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Old September 7th, 2008, 10:17 AM
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We live a short lifetime weather pattern establish of a longer period of time. If you say it's global warming because this is the worst hurricane I have seen in my life time you are looking at to s hort a period of time. What about the New Orleans Hurricane of 1915, it killed 275 people? Here is a link to Louisanna hurricanes of the past. http://www.hurricanecity.com/city/neworleans.htm Can I for sure say this is not Global Warming no but it could just be Climate change. I think this is an interesting statement.
Although advanced warning systems have significantly reduced the loss of life from hurricanes, the cost in terms of destruction have jumped astronomically as coastal areas have become more developed. Here is a look at 12 notable storms that have lashed Louisiana. (Damage amounts are in current dollars. Wind speeds marked with an "*" were gusts recorded in New Orleans).
Here is a link to this news article.
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/conten.../threat_1.html
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Old September 7th, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Kat..you really need to find a hobby :: or make your husband take you on at least 4 cruises a year to occupy your 'spare' time
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Old September 7th, 2008, 12:19 PM
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Hi Venice,

I'm your neighbor over on the Texas Gulf Coast. My heart goes out to all of those in the storm damaged areas that are trying to deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Gustav and the potential visit from Ike.

I believe that global warming is a looming threat and is definitely leading to catastrophic changes in weather patterns and ecosystems worldwide. This past summer, I read quite a few books on global warming. Numerous studies indicate that ocean waters are getting warmer and contributing to hurricanes with greater intensity. I was particularly interested in the history of storms around New Orleans and read an interesting book entitled, The Ravaging Tide: Strange Weather, Future Katrinas and the Coming Death of America's Coastal Cities. The author is Mike Tidwell. If you have the time, you will find his book a good read. It may answer some of your questions.

Sherrie
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Old September 7th, 2008, 02:48 PM
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thegambler..thanks, just ordered the book from Borders..during the storm I finally read..Rising Tide by John M. Barnes..about the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 (when they dynamited the levees in New Orleans)...great book if you have not already read it
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Old September 7th, 2008, 04:17 PM
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Hey Venice,

I'll plan on reading your recommendation Rising Tide by John Barnes in the next few weeks. Also, I think anyone planning on visiting New Orleans in the future or going on the Blog2Nola cruise would also find Mike Tidwell's book, The Ravaging Tide very interesting. After you read the book, let me know what you think.

Again, take care. We are watching the storm developments very carefully. Stay safe.

Sherrie
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Old September 7th, 2008, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice
Kat..you really need to find a hobby :: or make your husband take you on at least 4 cruises a year to occupy your 'spare' time
Ah I'm just insecure and I want people to think I'm smart. Do you think global warming contributes to earthquakes?
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Old September 7th, 2008, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice
Kat..you really need to find a hobby :: or make your husband take you on at least 4 cruises a year to occupy your 'spare' time
Ah I'm just insecure and I want people to think I'm smart. Do you think global warming contributes to earthquakes?
No, but it could work the other way around if the earthquake results in a release of geothermal energy beneath the sea.
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Old September 7th, 2008, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythyme
Quote:
Originally Posted by katlady
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice
Kat..you really need to find a hobby :: or make your husband take you on at least 4 cruises a year to occupy your 'spare' time
Ah I'm just insecure and I want people to think I'm smart. Do you think global warming contributes to earthquakes?
No, but it could work the other way around if the earthquake results in a release of geothermal energy beneath the sea.
That is interesting. Is that from the plates shifting?
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Old September 8th, 2008, 01:39 AM
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You know, I love living in Oregon!

No hurricanes, no Earthquakes, just peaceful, temperate climate. Ahhh......

Hope I didn't just jinx us........!!
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Old September 8th, 2008, 05:07 AM
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Mean Dean...not to blow your bubble...but when I lived in Seattle during the early 1980's...I seem to recall waking up one Sunday morning with alot of white ash on my car that the wind blew north from your wonderful state caused by a little eruption from a small mountain you have that I use to fly by on my way to Seattle and look at the top of

other then that, and a little rain now and then, Mother Nature treats you darn good....of course all those darn CA tags in your state could be considered a freak of nature ::
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Old September 8th, 2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
You know, I love living in Oregon!

No hurricanes, no Earthquakes, just peaceful, temperate climate. Ahhh......

Hope I didn't just jinx us........!!
It only rains 300 days out of the year. Venice I'm not moving to Oregon anytime soon. They have snow.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:59 AM
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My instinct is that it's probably related, but in a way I think you're asking the wrong question.

The idea of global warming is tied inexorably to the idea of conservation in general and to the idea of acting in our own economic best interests. Since all these issues align, doesn't it make the most sense to simply allow "for the sake of argument" that there is a relationship, since acting as though there is can produce nothing but benefits--economically, socially and environmentally? If it turns out that warming has no direct impact on the weather, we've certainly lost nothing by working hard to preserve the ozone layer, have we? If we do as many suggest and wait until we have absolute empirical evidence as to the relationship, it clearly could be too late to make necessary corrections. And this problem is exacerbated in an overall national atomsphere where science has been derided, mocked and generally ignored anyway.

I think the more interesting question is the one that far too few people are willing to bring up in public: How many times must the nation pay (through voluntary contributions of goods, money and time, plus government expenditures) to evacuate, repatriate, protect and constantly rebuild on a piece of land that is below sea level? Ever since I first visited New Orleans, I've had great affection for the place, and I've been back many times. But I've also known, ever since that night in 1969 when I rode out Hurricane Camille there, that I would never, ever live there.

In the summer of 1972, a flash flood tore through Rapid City, SD. In the strip that comprised the low-lying part of town, the flood killed 200 residents in 20 minutes. In the wake of the tragedy, the city took immediate action: they condemned all the lowlands, and moved--at city expense--every remaining structurally sound home to higher ground. Luckily, out there in the wide open spaces, it was possible to do this, and to make free swaps of property available to the homeowners. I know all this because I made a documentary film about it, and was there to see houses being literally moved all over town at 1mph. It was an amazing undertaking and an amazing sight. In an on-camera interview I did with the mayor, he was very blunt. He simply said that public service means fixing things so that you don't have to go to the graveyard a second time to bury your policemen, your firemen and your citizens.

Dr. Neil Frank used to head the National Hurricane Center. I once did a film with him as well, and he was a vocal crusader--far more than anybody in government is today--about the idea that we have responsbilities to each other when it comes to the issue of where we buy or build our home. He used to show slides of the barrier islands along the east coast and say, "I realize you can't see the apartment buildings very well in this slide, but there's a good reason for that: they're not there anymore."

So, while basic humanity must always come first, I think it is a completely valid public policy question to wonder how many times we should do the same thing and hope for different results.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 12:50 PM
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AR wrote
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So, while basic humanity must always come first, I think it is a completely valid public policy question to wonder how many times we should do the same thing and hope for different results.
This is America, as many times as we have to!

When you were in N.O you said you enjoyed it. Well the goverment helps so future generations can enjoy it too.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 01:48 PM
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Or maybe, this is America, we honor our past but we invest in a viable future. The overwhelming majority of Americans don't travel at all and will never see New Orleans, wet or dry. But a great many Americans who live there are facing their own version of "Groundhog Day" resulting from recurring storms.

I won't speak for him, but I certainly sense some frustration and weariness in Venice's latest posts. I'm sure he's not alone in that.

If the choice is between preserving a tourist attraction and giving residents a more stable long-term outlook on their lives, I certainly know where I stand. And I say that knowing full well about the "homing instinct" of the human race. I'm completely familiar with the top two cliche soundbites that come out of every hurricane: 1) "It sounded like a freight train," and 2) "It's home. It's all I've ever known, so I'm going to rebuild."

Even so, I think it's a question deserving more serious consideration than instinctively dismissing any sort of change.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 02:39 PM
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I don't disagree with the arguement. Many think it foolish to live in an area that is subject to disaster. I purchased a home 5 yrs ago in a new development here in Palm beach county. This was the beginning of the housing boom and many New Yorkers flooded to buy here. Well, of the dozen or so new friends we have made, about 3 have moved back because of hurricanes and 2 are thinking about it after seeing the storms lining up across the atlantic. They have had had it they say(even though only 2 have hit us in those 5 years and the last major hurricane to hit us came in 1949).

Having agreed that it would be best for our economy if the govt did not have to bail out citizens living in disaster prone areas what is the solution. She all Floridians, east Texans, alabamans and new... (what do they call people from new orleans) move? how bout Californians? should they leave because of earth quakes? Should we rebuild San Fransisco when it someday crumbles? How about people living in flood prone areas? should they all move to higher ground? the point is there are few places in our country where a natural disaster would not effect peoples lives or destroy property so what alternatives do we have.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 02:44 PM
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Kat, I will take the snow any day. The thought of evacuating for a hurricaine, my main residence, no I could not cope with that.

I have been in a Hurricaine a really bad one in Antigua actually , and I never want to go through that again. The worste I have had where I am now is the ice storm, and while bad, it was more than managable compared to what I went through in the hurricaine. Now the house faired pretty good because the house is "hurricaine proof", and built with money and standards to deal with that weather, it is also not at sea level,so water surge is not an issue, its actually on a slop so the rains went straight down, ( towards another Villa below us) and the damage there was was not so serious, a few broken tiles , especially around the pool and so on. Enourmous damage to the property, trees, the beach front was seriously erroded, but the average antiguan suffered incredibly, I will never forget it, it was like some one dropped a bomb, and years later, you could still see evidence of it every where.

No, the more of tornado's and hurricaines and the like I see, the more I will take winter, and in fact I even like the snow most days.

RE. AR's post, I tend to agree with him on this point. Its not me so I cannot judge, but it is not something that I would do. ( rebuild that is in a place prone to this issue )
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Old September 8th, 2008, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfthuis
Kat, I will take the snow any day. The thought of evacuatijg for a hurricaine, my main residence, no I could not cope with that.

I have been in a Hurricaine a really bad one in Antigua actually , and I never want to go through that again. The worste I have had where I am now is the ice storm, and while bad, it was more than managable compared to what I went through in the hurricaine. Now the house faired pretty good because the house is "hurricaine proof", and built with money and standards to deal with that weather, it is also not at sea level,so water surge is not an issue, its actually on a slop so the rains went straight down, ( towards another Villa below us) and the damage there was was not so serious, a few broken tiles , especially around the pool and so on. Enourmous damage to the property, trees, the beach front was seriously erroded, but the average antiguan suffered incredibly, I will never forget it, it was like some one dropped a bomb, and years later, you could still see evidence of it every where.

No, the more of tornado's and hurricaines and the like I see, the more I will take winter, and in fact I even like the snow most days.

RE. AR's post, I tend to agree with him on this point. Its not me so I cannot judge, but it is not something that I would do. ( rebuild that is in a place prone to this issue )
I live in an area of California that is not in a fault zone (no earthquake centers here) , we don't have hurricanes, tornados, or snow. I did move from the California Bay Area and I lived on the Hayward fault so I have been in a 7.1 earthquake. That earthquake was not on the Hayward fault.The earthquake itself didn't scare me, until I discovered the lives that were lost and the damage done. the earthquake felt to me like a 5.0. I didn't move from the bay area because of the earthquakes (I grew up with these). My job closed my office.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 07:41 PM
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Venice,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
does global warming have anything to do with these intense hurricanes ?
No. There was a similar period of intense hurricanes back in the 1950's. It seems to be tied to the pattern of sun spots.

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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:40 PM
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Venice,

I remember Mount Saint Helens blowing its top, May 18, 1980! And I remember all the ash, too! I remember the snowplows going up and down the streets, plowing it up, and leaving huge piles of ash for the dump trucks to pick up.

I also remember everyone mailing ash to their friends and clogging up the Postal system's machinery, until the Post Office forbade anyone to mail any more ash.

I also remember the weird green lightning when the ash was falling -- probably from all the static electricity the ash generated. And then it would rain like h*ll after the ash fell. It was really surreal!

Sherry,

It's 84 degrees and sunny, with a gentle breeze, as I type this out on the deck. In other words, Paradise! And you're right, it does snow here -- about 6 - 8 inches total for the winter. But how else are you gunna make your snowmen??!
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Old September 8th, 2008, 10:40 PM
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what scares people who live in New Orleans is not the hurricanes ..we live thru that every year ..it's will the levees hold..the rest of the country forgets that Katrina did very little damage in New Orleans (wiped out Mississippi)...

prior to Katrina...people evacuate up to several times a year and always came back home the day after the storm and continue with their daily routine...Katrina changed that forever, one cannot express what it meant to come back and your entire home was gone or sitting under 20 feet of water for 21 plus days

that's why even after 3 years the destructive force of the levee's breaking is still very visible and is a reminder of the failure of all levels of government for a number of years...and one can see it in the faces of so many people when the discussion turned to Ike, the day after Gustuv blew thru here..that's where AR is picking up my frustration

I've lived all across this country..seen earthquakes in Oakland in 1989, great flooding in North Dakota in the early 90's..tornado's in Oklahoma, 100 inches of snow in 3 days in upstate new york, lava eruptions in Kona, and a couple of hurricanes...there is no place that is immune (note to Mean Dean, not even Oregon..see his last post ...fyi..the tornado scared me the most..no advanced warning *except for the total silence and the green sky*
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Old September 9th, 2008, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
Venice,

I remember Mount Saint Helens blowing its top, May 18, 1980! And I remember all the ash, too! I remember the snowplows going up and down the streets, plowing it up, and leaving huge piles of ash for the dump trucks to pick up.

I also remember everyone mailing ash to their friends and clogging up the Postal system's machinery, until the Post Office forbade anyone to mail any more ash.

I also remember the weird green lightning when the ash was falling -- probably from all the static electricity the ash generated. And then it would rain like h*ll after the ash fell. It was really surreal!

Sherry,

It's 84 degrees and sunny, with a gentle breeze, as I type this out on the deck. In other words, Paradise! And you're right, it does snow here -- about 6 - 8 inches total for the winter. But how else are you gunna make your snowmen??!
Oregon does have Crater Lake and who doesn't lake a lake made from a volcanic eruption. From an airplane.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 01:12 AM
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Sherry,

You really should visit Crater Lake -- it's beautiful! When you do, take the jet boat tour around the lake, and visit Wizard Island. The island in the lower left-hand area of the lake.

Then stay at the lodge for a couple of days.

I promise you, you won't be disappointed!
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Old September 9th, 2008, 02:50 AM
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I have considered moving to a "retirement" area for my years left on this good old Earth. The Caribbean islands, Florida have come to mind but the storms would be too tough for me to handle. Yes, Houston is near the coast and I hold my breathe as a storm comes into the Gulf. I lived here when Debra hit in 7/24/1959. Carla hit 9/11/1961. Cindy on 9/17/1963. Felice 9/15/1970. Delia 9/4/1973. Debra 8/28/1978. Claudette 7/24/1979 dumped 40 inches in Alvin, near Galveston. Danielle 9/5/1980. Alicia 8/18/1983 12 foot storm surge in Kemah/Seabrook. Jerry 10/16/1989. Allison 6/26/1989 gave Houston its first "100" year flood. Dean 7/30/1995. Allison 6/6/2001 we raced her back on the Celebration getting in the day before she hit. Houston had its second "100" year flood and I had to be airlifted to work due to emergencies with the sheriff's office.

So we have had our fill during my lifetime in the Houston area. That is 13 in the 50 years I have lived in Houston. When I was in San Antonio, as a tot, we didn't get hit by any. Maybe that is where I need to go.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 04:20 AM
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Mehawk..what about Arizona ?
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Old September 9th, 2008, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Dean
Sherry,

You really should visit Crater Lake -- it's beautiful! When you do, take the jet boat tour around the lake, and visit Wizard Island. The island in the lower left-hand area of the lake.

Then stay at the lodge for a couple of days.

I promise you, you won't be disappointed!
I tried there was to much snow!!!! I couldn't get up the mountain. I will have to come back get a margarita and try again.
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