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  #1 (permalink)  
Old December 29th, 2008, 12:06 AM
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Default Woman Overboard from Norwegian Pearl close to Cozumel

Fox news is reporting a woman fell overboard from the Norwegian Pearl on Christmas Night as it was en route from Cozumel to the Bahamas.
She is still missing. She is named as Jennifer Seitz and is 36 years old
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Old December 29th, 2008, 04:45 AM
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My alerts from the days "on the job" always perk up when I hear about or see on TV stories such as this.

In an update, I learned that her husband had last seen her at around 8:30pm. Then he reports her missing at somewhere near 3:30 am.

Could be suicide but when I saw the time differences, well...................

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Old December 29th, 2008, 07:39 AM
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There are some updates on the NCL board about this unfortunate situation. It appears they have the lady going overboard at 8:08 p.m. on video. If nothing else, it may give them a more accurate idea of where to search.

I am trying to control the urge to speculate until the FBI finishes it's investigation. NCL has more cameras and video surveillance on their newer ships than any other cruiseline and hope they will be able to reveal how this woman met this fate.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 07:56 AM
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It is very sad
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Old December 29th, 2008, 08:49 AM
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I heard this morning that Jennifer was a free lance tourism writer for Florida, who has often written about cruise ships. The couple participated in the newlywed game onboard, and were traveling with her Mother.

When I hear about these situations, my mind goes to a suicide rather than a murder..with the 1000, security cameras onboard, I hope they can track her hours, before the incident...they also said, at this time the husband is not a suspect, which I found interesting, because I thought they wouldn't commit to that statement.

Anyway you dissect it, it's a sad situation
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Old December 29th, 2008, 11:01 AM
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There are stories on purely speculative web sites that scuffle sounds were heard in their cabin about the time she is reported to have gone overboard. Included was a report of "someone" yelling "stop hitting me" however, if you are going to report that wouldn't you report who yelled it, as in whether it was a male or female?

The cruise line says it has video of her going overboard - but the word they use is "falling" - not jumping or "was pushed."

It is odd that the husband would report her as missing at 3:30 but say that the last time he saw her was around 8:00 p.m. They should have a record of people entering the stateroom, but not leaving. They also had her mother-in-law onboard.

The FBI apparently questioned the husband & mother, and the people in the adjacent cabins and above & below.

Naturally - these sites are already blaming the cruise line for what happened (why, I have no idea). I read three or four oddly similar comments by people who were "on the ship" and were "dicusted" or "discousted" with NCL (out of four different comments, all were on the ship and none could spell the word "disgusted") because NCL did not turn around or make an announcement on the ship that the woman was missing.

Well - first of all, they already immediately had the Mexican coast guard in boats and a helicopter looking all day and the next for the woman. Secondly, she was reported missing at 3:30 am and they subsequently found video of her going over at 8:00 pm the previous night . They already knew she was not on the ship and had a search underway by the next morning. They sealed the scene and then waited for the FBI to take over in Miami. That is the protocol of the industry as mandated by Congress. NCL did nothing wrong.

It is not the cruise line's duty to conduct investigations in cases like this. They are not CSI professionals. The FBI was seen interviewing all the pertinent witnesses in Miami.

But the cruise line bashers will be out as usual - calling for congressional hearings. (Un)fortunately, Congress has much more important things to worry about this year than policing an industry that doesn't need policing.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 12:21 PM
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And we all know that people don't accidentally fall off of ships unless they are drunk and doing something dumb on the balcony. sitting on the rail and standing on the lounge chair next to the railing.. Not a good idea sober or drunk.

Its very sad that she died for sure..... just saying.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 01:22 PM
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The woman apparently had emotional problems. This was her second marriage in as many years. She had struggled tremendously with her weight.

A web site on the psychology of suicide says it is in essence an act of hatred, by which you throw evidence of your failure into the faces of those who failed you, as proof of their failures.

What does this say about the "blame" game people play against the husbands and families and the cruise lines every time we see one of these suicides?

It says the person inflicted violence unto themselves in order to put the blame for the act on someone else. In other words, it is way of accusing an innocent person of a crime. A very unfair and futile thing to do. They refer to it as a psychological "crime."

Some suicides are done for personal reasons, but these that are done in the height of passion are done to inflict injury on someone else, and I really doubt it is the cruise line.

"She committed suicide because she didn't like the shrimp cocktail"

Not likely, right? Not only is a cruise line not a CSI team, it has no reason to get involved in the personal problems of its adult passengers.

The whole reason WHY the cruise lines do not make media announcements about things like what the video shows (exactly) or public announcements on the ships is to protect the innocent, and also not to hamper any investigation.

If you were the captain of a ship and you had a distraught husband and mother whose daughter had just committed suicide, would you make a public announcement to the whole ship? What if that resulted in violence against the husband by a vigilante type of person?
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Old December 29th, 2008, 03:37 PM
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Maybe she was an endurance swimmer and is training.......just saying!

Why would anyone want the cruise line to make an announcement? To announce something like this would only serve to satisfy someone's curiosity while really putting a damper on everyone's vacation.

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Old December 29th, 2008, 03:45 PM
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From what I have learned since my last post, although it's still up in the air officially, it appears not to be a suicide (IMH)). How so very sad.

Of course it the death is ruled a suicide, it naturally will be blamed on the cruise line. The anti-cruise element probably wouldn't consiedr it sufficient were cruise lines to put chain link fencing topped with razor ribbon around the whole shipl.

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Old December 29th, 2008, 04:58 PM
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Todd.. I know you also have an investigative BG, and I don't know what you have since heard.

I watched the Today show video. It does bother me a great deal that the host of the show appears to be gleaming with joy that they possibly got some "dirt" happening on a cruise ship, but anyway....

On the Today show video they show the FBI measuring the balcony and there is chair place right up against the railing, signifying someone could have used it to step up.

The cabin, I believe, is 11122 (they said deck 11 number 122) which is far enough astern that she could have gone straight down into the water. Why is this significant? because it means you can't tell if she was dropped, or if she jumped, because a jumper over the lifeboats would have had to stand on the railing and push out.

more importantly will be any evidence of foul play and the husband's whereabouts at the time. It says a lot that no arrest was made right away. Most crimes are solved in the first 48 hours, and in a case like this, I think it would be even less.

Yes, there was a fight, it appears, but I have known some very self-destructive people who wouldn't stop at committing suicide as a way to punish someone else.

The only "damning eveidence" I heard was speculation from another passenger that the husband was acting strangely, but once again that proves nothing.

Most passengers are up in arms that the ship didn't "do anything" I assume they are referring to the husband being free to roam the ship - but once again, what is a ship supposed to do? We must assume they know more than we do, then who are we to judge?

From what i saw on tape, it looked like a suicide. She was described as "excitable, and fun-loving" struggled with weight problems, it was her second marriage in as many years - impulsive, not in much self-control. All implies not exactly carefully weighed thoughts before actions.

The man may have been acting strange, but how would you feel if you met someone and married them within a short period of time and during an argument on a cruise ship she runs and jumps off the balcony, leaving you as a murder suspect. If someone asked me where i was going with a roll of quarters, I might have said "going to the casino to see if I can change my luck" also.

Yes, it is sad, but not nearly as sad as killer Santa. I don't think you could have expected the cruise lines to do anything differently. I mean even in the George Smith case the cruise line was forced to get down on its knees on Oprah and apologize for the way his wife was treated afterwards, and in that case there were definite signs of foulplay and she could not account for herself at the time his end occured. She sued the cruise line because they treated her too roughly when all the evidence said she could have easily been involved, and they didn't even confine her.

This has to be played out before anything is said about the cruise line. If it is obvious the husband was responsible that is different, but so far I haven't seen anything to suggest that. I doubt the cruise ship did either.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 05:20 PM
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I find it so sad to see so much of this womans life, her mental health talked so freely about, . We know nothing really about her, her husband, only what others say, and we all know how reliable the media is. I am not sure I want to know about their personal lives to this degree.

I dont think if she comitted suicide that it is the cruise lines fault, but I do think security is always an issue and one that cruise lines have had to deal with more and more which is only normal given the huge amounts of people going on trips this way now. I still feel safe on a ship, but I also take precautions as well.

Some one's death on a ship wont prevent me from taking a trip on a ship, just like a murder in a city wont prevent me from a land trip.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 05:35 PM
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Delft...

You make a good point. It isn't respectful to be speculating like this. Unfortunately, we are just trying to focus on the cruise ship aspect in the case and the people involved sort of lose any personal identity.

Most of what we are discussing is a reaction to what we have seen in the media and the way they treat the cruise industry in cases like this. That is also quite demeaning in our opinion.

The media always asks "and how did you feel the cruise line acted in this case?" of witnesses, amd there are always people who get onboard and say they should be doing more. But we have been OVER and OVER that topic and we never come up with better solutions.

The cruise lines and ship personnel generally know exactly what they are doing, but the media loves to rip the industry apart just because it adds to the story.

It seems there are a lot of people in this country who use cruising as a punching bag - even though they know nothing about it.

It's kind of like mobile homes - a lot of people think anyone who lives in a mobile home is "trashy" when in fact some of the new ones are beautiful and cost more than the average American brick & morter.

But it is just "easy" to find things where you can say "I'm better than those people" - A lot of people look at cruisers that way, and we personally get tired of it.

But by the same token - on the ship with all the rampant speculation happening and the man walking around free as a bird, I would expect the ship to make some kind of announcement like "there has been an incident, but everything is under control and no one should modify their behavior."

If anything - they should have done it FOR the husband's protection as much as the mood of the other passengers. Just my opinion. You never know though, he may have asked them not to say anything, or there may be another protocol.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 05:57 PM
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http://www.wftv.com/news/18371829/detail.html#-

The link just posted says the FBI has ruled her husband out as a suspect. That is the only report we have that says that, so it may not be accurate, but it is something.

It was HER mother that was traveling with them, and it appears both he and her mother chose to stay on the ship until the end of the cruise.

To me that says something about not only how the mother felt about the husband, but also her daughter.

Oh, and ironically, they also lived in a mobile home.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 06:03 PM
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Paul,

I just read the first sentence of my last post again. Now I understand yours!

I thought I typed "it appears to be a suicide." I didn't see the word "not" in there. Remove that word and the last paragraphs reads more reasonably. (For the unitiated, compulsive writers as am I, will in their efforts for clarity, change thoughts in mid sentence and then forget to change words).

But then Paul, you've known for awhile I'm brain dead. I was hoping to hide it from my fellow cruisemates but after six or seven months, they're on to me.

Todd
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Old December 29th, 2008, 06:16 PM
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I don't find anything wrong with talking about her mental state, or any part of her personal life, etc. This is a message board which is, by design, a place for discussion amongst people of like interests. We are here on this thread to discuss this situation and in my opinion all aspects of it.

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Old December 29th, 2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
I don't find anything wrong with talking about her mental state, or any part of her personal life, etc. This is a message board which is, by design, a place for discussion amongst people of like interests. We are here on this thread to discuss this situation and in my opinion all aspects of it.

Regards,
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True, except this women is not exactly able to defend her self from coments made by others who do not even know her, especially the media.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 06:39 PM
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081229/...uise_passenger

Family of missing cruise woman believes she jumped
Reuters MIAMI – The family of a missing cruise ship passenger said Monday that they suspect the woman "chose an unfortunate ending to her life" and jumped from a cruise ship balcony into the waters off Mexico's coast on Christmas night. The U.S. Coast Guard suspended its search Monday for Jennifer Ellis Seitz, a Florida journalist, after combing more than 4,200 square miles off the coast of the popular resort area of Cancun, where the ship had just visited. Mexican authorities said they would continue their search for another 48 hours.
Seitz had "previous emotional issues," yet there were no outward signs of distress while on the seven-night cruise from Miami, her family said in a statement given to one of her former employers, The News Chief in Winter Haven. Seitz's mother joined her daughter and son-in-law on the cruise.
"Jennifer was in a very happy and uplifted mood both before and during the cruise," the Ellis family said in the statement. "She was excited about starting a new job and her future career with a local newspaper. She and her husband had been talking about starting their family. The family suspects that Jennifer chose an unfortunate ending to her life. She was a beautiful and caring person and will be truly missed by all who love her."
Seitz and her husband, Raymond, were celebrating their one-year anniversary on the Norwegian Pearl cruise ship.
A surveillance camera showed someone falling overboard at 8 p.m. Christmas night, authorities said. About eight hours later, Raymond Seitz reported his wife missing.

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Old December 29th, 2008, 06:55 PM
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OK to put another spin on it. What if she didn't go overboard but wanted everyone to think she had ( Remember the Canoe Man from England?0
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Old December 29th, 2008, 07:53 PM
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In the long run.... I am just tired of the media turning every single cruise incident into something far worse than it really is.

The Today Show devoted 7 minutes to it - on a Monday when all kinds of huge things are happening in the world. The FBI had not even reported on it yet.

They had to find a couple to add their total speculation on what they saw, a mysterious man running around free on a cruise ship after his wife had gone missing, and the cruise line doing and saying nothing to the other passengers onboard.

If you think the people running cruise lines are totally socially inept idiots then I guess you would believe this story, but why didn't anyone on the Today show even bother to say ANY of the following...

"by the way, there is no appearance of foul play"

"The fact that the husband is not being held by the cruise ship means there is no evidence to hold him"

"The fact that the cruise ship made no announcement to other passengers could be because it is a private, family matter"

"The FBI will be fully investigating and we are waiting to see what they say"

NOTHING LIKE THAT WAS SAID!!! It was all just "what did you think of Ray? and what did he say to you? was it suspicious?" and of course the clincher...

"How did you think the cruise ship handled the incident" to which the man replied "horrible, just horrible."

That semi-witness had NO knowledge of anything the cruise ship knew about the incident. When will the media learn, and more importantly, learn to respect the fact that cruise ships have an astounding safety record, that they do have safety and security protocols in place and that they were being followed?

Is it acceptable reporting to immediately jump to the worst possible conclusion every time something like this happens on a cruise ship and fail to report accurately both sides of the story.

Do you think the Today show will do a follow-up tomorrow to set the record straight? Someone please watch it and let me know.

As for other motives like the canoe guy? who is the canoe guy?
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Old December 30th, 2008, 08:33 AM
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If I can add my two cents, think about the millions of people who travel regularly on cruise ships and this stuff never happens. I'd say that these incidents, thankfully, are few. I feel badly for the family and the cruiseline, as well. Norwegian has always had such safety mechanisms in place. I'm no travel agent, just someone who has high regard for the cruise line. If someone is intent on doing something like this, there's not much you can do to prevent it.
I might have reacted differently though, as the mother of the tragedy. I'm sure I would wanted to get off the ship immediately to speak with the authorities.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 08:52 AM
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If you read this storyfrom GMA, the family is supportive of the husband, and is insenced over the speculation by cruisers onboard. Such a tragedy.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6546350
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Old December 30th, 2008, 10:39 AM
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I think just because there was a chair next to the hand rail doesn't mean she jumped. Ray's been arressted for DV before, from delivering a headbutt to his wife. There was apparently an altercation between the two just before her going overboard. What I have yet to hear is whether the hallway cams have him in the room when it happened or had he just left. Also, does anyone know if his Mother in law was staying in the same room? Why would you bring your Mom on an Aniversary cruise?

I know I'm not the FBI, but I believe a little speculation is good. I don't however believe in blaming the cruiseline for such incidents. They clearly followed protocol on this occasion.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 11:14 AM
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I think I'll wait until the investigation is complete and all the facts that can be found are presented before I make a call.

I think people take cases and do a little too much speculation with too little information. Even if someone is innocent they are tarnished for the rest of their life.

Until the facts are in I'm sticking with my alien abduction theory.

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Old December 30th, 2008, 12:46 PM
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CNN just did a very (IMHO) unbiased piece on this story. Just the facts...no blaming the cruise line, no speculation about whether they handled the tragedy properly, just the facts that the investigation is ongoing and that her husband is not a suspect. They did show a mugshot of him from his arrest for DV. My question about this story is how can a husband wait 7-8 hours before reporting his wife missing...unless he was asleep. CNN also reported that the family made a statement about the previous problems the woman had, even though on this trip she was happy and uplifted. I, too am curious how this story will end and don't really want to speculate out loud..
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Old December 30th, 2008, 02:06 PM
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Maybe after the gastric bypass surgery, she was not able to partake in the buffet and she was depressed.... just an idea. His mugshot looked pretty rough too.

I do think that if my wife went overboard, whether a good thing or not, I would cinfine myself to the cabin and order room service. It would be awkward to be out and about the ship and playing in the casino. I do find that odd. I guess he figured, "WTF, she is gone, I may as well enjoy the cruise."
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Old December 30th, 2008, 03:47 PM
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The question is why the media makes such a big deal of these stories just because they happen on cruise ships. But I am also just staggered that Greta still cares about Anita Holloway and Aruba? Does anyone really care about that story anymore except those directly involved?

In any case - I can completely understand the husband not reporting her missing if she has a history of temper. A lot of people "walk out" to express their anger over an incident.

We know they argued, after an argument for her to "walk out" and disappear for a few hours may not have been unusual at all. If he went to bed at 11:00 expecting her to be there when he woke up I don't see anything odd about that. he woke and she wasn't there, so he roamed the ship for 90 minutes looking and then contacted security.

Her mother was on the trip and even she does not suspect the husband - the media is taking the words of "witnesses" who were onstage with them or said one line in the elevator to him over her own mother's opinion?

I agree one should always wait for the "results" but I can't help feeling a strong sense of deja vu here. Yes, it is sad and unusual behavior, but studies say suicides often have a "happy" phase just before the act. If you think about the psychology of suicide, how else could they go through with it if they weren't at a point of acceptance.

I don't mean to get droll here. I am just saying we are all adults and we don't need to dance around the truth. The real damage that is being done right now is not to the lady involved, it is to her family. And I also admit that I view suicide as an act of violence by the perpetrator to the people left behind. Letting other people take the blame for what you do to yourself is an act of passive aggressive violence.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 06:03 PM
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Amen, Paul. I agree. Who really knows, though, what happened? I lost a loved one never really understanding why. It happens. It's hard though.

But, anyway, hey, everybody have a great and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are supposed to go to a great party but a blizzard may interfere.
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Lighten up, it didn't happen to you jeepers creepers. Love to all..
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Old December 30th, 2008, 07:21 PM
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In fact the most dangerous time in a depressed patients cycle is the road "UP". When I worked psyciatry we were on heightened alert to a patient who was outwardly doing "so much better". It was often a sign they made up their minds to end their life and were comfortable with that.

Suicide can generally be placed into two categories.

1- anger.......a very aggressive act, often to show anger. Attempts are often in this group, they are angry and need attention. Anger can be from many things, their life, their issues with others. This type of suicide is the ULTIMATE act and expression of anger. Many try it, and don't expect to suceed, sadly some do. Sadly many try and really hurt themselves.

Sadly some people feel it is the only way they can get help for their issues.

I have never seen some one commit suicide over not being able to eat at a buffet and I truly understand how the family is upset at comments and jokes and posts like that. I heard one person ( family) in an interview say how hurtful it was to read and see all these types of jokes. I happen to agree.

2- a deep depression where one see's what so ever no hope. Often these suicides dont always come as a shock. The loved ones have seen them struggle a great deal and they truly see no way out. I worked in emerg a night a friend was brought in, a fellow nurse, she suicided. We all knew how much she was hurting and she tried everything to get out of it. Her two children passed away tragically in a crash two years earlier, and she never recovered. Oddly, as sad as we were, when we saw her note, and her strong desire to be with her children, we at least felt she was with them once again. Life was simply to unbearable for her. It still brings me to tears as I write this and it happened 20 years ago. I know all of us always wished we could have done more, helped more. She did try, everything possible, the depression was unrelenting.

No one will know unless she left a note , of what truly was the cause.

I can see not seeings ones spouse for several hours. On our last cruise, one night Sam did not feel so well, so I went to dinner with our group of friends, I left him at 6 PM and did not return to the cabin till after 1 AM. I didnt phone him as I didnt want to wake him.

I agree with Paul, why all the coverage in the media? Suicide happens each and every day. My lord, a police officer shot himself dead where I live this past fall in his home not ten doors away from me, there was barely a mention of it in the local paper. I don't understand the incredible media coverage. It is on each and every station.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 08:23 PM
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Paul
The "Canoe Man" is a man from England who faked his own death to cash in on insurance and was going to start a new life in Panama with his wife ( who had hidden him for years in another part of the house. She didn't even tell her children" Google the story, it is very interesting.
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