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Old February 6th, 2009, 07:48 AM
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Default The Economy your opinion

My coworkers and I were discussing this at work yesterday. Why should the US government bail out all these corrupt companies and say it will stimulate our economy. In the US we have approximately 300 million citizens. If the government gave each "TAXPAYER" 1 million dollars each to spend on whatever it would stimulate the economy like never before. That would be a total of approx. 300 billion which would also save the US 400 billion. So let me know what you opinion is.

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Old February 6th, 2009, 08:39 AM
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I find the whole thing a scary mess. When you spend and spend in your own household, at some point you have to stop and turn things around.

Our government is doing the opposite. It still spends like there is money to burn.

I pray that there are those is Washington who are able to put politics aside, and do the right thing for this country.

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Old February 6th, 2009, 08:47 AM
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I think it is a mess. I don't know what the answer is.
I think too many people are motivated and driven by greed.

I am not sure if this would work, or if anything would work, but I think I trust the average american on the street more than politicians that have made it their career to cater to the whims of which ever lobbyist controls them.

I guess if they chose this way I would do my best to stimulate the economy.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 08:50 AM
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I was truly bothered and deeply disgusted to see how the last bail out money was spent. At least this time there seems to be some effort at least in making people some what accountable although I am sure they will find ways to circumvent rules around salaries etc. It is disgusting to the point of nassea when I see the coruption and the greed.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 10:44 AM
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PoconoPug: If you are a math teacher, I can only guess that you teach the "new math."

Seriously, I'm not qualified nor educated enough to propse a solution. All I can say is this. If this package goes through in its current amount or even close to it, know this. This country will spend with a stroke of a pen, more money than we did just in the four years of 1941-1945 (adjusted for inflation, mind you), than we did to:

Put over fifteen million Americans into uniform;
Create the largest navy the world has ever seen (including the building of dozens of aircraft carriers, fleets of battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, landing craft, etc., etc.;
Construct thousands and thousands of combat and transport aircraft;
Construct hundreds of freighters and similar vessels;
Equip, train and support all of those 16 millions Americans in uniform, 8 million of which went into combat theaters;
Provide the logistical support that prevented especially Great Britain and Russia from succumbing to the Axis juggernaut;
Retool American industry to virtually overnight start producing war materiel.

Now, compare that to what is currently being proposed in the form of bail outs, enhancements of entitlement programs, and pork-pork-pork that will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help our situation.

And we just keep voting these people back into office. What is destroying this country is simply this. Whether for good or evil, we have in effect, made our treasury available to every man, woman and child and it takes not just an economist but any historian to easily prove that is basically what has destroyed most every similar form of government as ours that has preceeded us. Are we next?

Todd
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Old February 6th, 2009, 10:52 AM
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Ok so my math was off. Im sorry. You get my point though, why give the money to the corporations and their greedy corrupt executives and politicians and not to the American people. This new stimulus package wants to take the jobs out of America and help stimulate the worlds economy. How can we even think about trying to stimulate other countries when we have such a mess here.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 11:12 AM
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The other thought is with these credit card companies, mortgage companies, and banks. They have these bad loans and accounts on which they have insurance on these happenings that they collect on.

Now if a home owner forecloses, the house is sold, the homeowner is still responsible for the remainder of the debt left if any. So where is this massive loss occuring at?????

Credit card companies, they have this enormous interest rate set for cards and are increasing the APR on many of their customers. The cardholder defaults and never pays, the card is "charged off" and that debt is sold at a ratio of cents to the dollar to a collection agency. The card company is still receiving what would in a sense be the actual charged amount less their interest charges from the collection agency.

Where did all this money go????? OOOpppppssss, I know it was that business trip to Vegas using a private jet.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 11:22 AM
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It went to that greedy executive who just got a 40 million dollar bonus and his political buddies who help get this through.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 12:45 PM
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We, of course worry about what will happen to the military. If the past is an example of what is to come, we will get hit hard, when the president figures out that it takes a lot of bucks to run the military.

I am afraid that not just President Obama, but those who have come before him, who thought they knew what was best for our country, and then got into office and said "Oh s... "

We also have to remember that congress really runs the country, and as long as they are still doing the political game, we won't get any better.

Wouldn't it be nice that once the elections were over with, congress could go about helping to run the country, without worrying about the next election.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 01:59 PM
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I too am dismayed by what has happened with the Bank bailout. The executives performed poorly and therefore, should be fired by their board of directors for poor decisions and performance.

However, I feel that the stimulus should not go to individuals. Giving individuals money only pumps up the economy for the time immediately surrounding the stimulus. In addition, most of the money would end up in other countries i.e. China and the Middle East for goods and energy.

Why did WWII bring us out of depression... We built up the infrastructure to manufacture goods. We built roads,plants, electrical grids to the plants etc. WWII also raised the education bar in this country. Most people transitioned from a largely agricultural existence to factories and suburbs.

We need to support packages that will bring lasting prosperity. We need programs similar to the early days of the space program. So many industries came out of that initiative that are now free standing.

We need to change our tax laws for corporations. My CEO told our coffee talk that he has $1 Billion earned in investments overseas he would like to repatriate for investment and jobs here, but he can't because of tax law and how it would affect his bottom line and shareholders.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 03:26 PM
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oh what a can of worms;;;;;

I haven't got the time nor does CM have the space for me to comment on how I really feel about the bailouts..... where does it end

and the pork in the bills; uggghhh... pork goes with beans silly --

the sad part there are some small steps that could bring some relief to average joe; i.e. the usurpious interest rates on all credit cards, etc; if those rates were dropped down to lets say 10%; average joe's dollar would go a little further in getting debt paid down and heck they may even go eat, buy some clothes, go to the movie; which will help the economy a little.

mortgage relief program: give Average Joe one year without mortgage payments/stall foreclosures for a year; (with minimal interest accuring over that year); so Average Joe can find a job; so many without jobs; keep his family together, etc....

oh carp, I usually never comment on these type of threads, as someone never agrees and people get crazy

so if you don't like my response, just please don't get personal about it.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 03:52 PM
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From the peanut gallery:

All of the above are well said and, as the British say, "Spot on!"

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Old February 6th, 2009, 04:36 PM
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To every American age 21 or above, provide the credit sum of $100,000.00
The rules are simple:
#1 - pay off your mortgage!
#2 - if any funds are left - pay them towards a home equity and or credit card debit.
#3 - if any funds are left - pay off any and all educational loans and non insured medical debts.

If by fortunes smile, you have none of these debts to pay - you don't get the credit.

The funds will be held until verified by the creditor and the debtor and then transferred automatically to settle the debt. Then the next debt in the list is addressed.

When the amount is depleted...you are done.
If you have funds left..you are done.

Simple, right ?????
Imagine the impact on the economy when disposable income is increased(might due wonders for the cruise industry )

Well it was fun dreaming
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Old February 6th, 2009, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocono Pug
It went to that greedy executive who just got a 40 million dollar bonus and his political buddies who help get this through.
Which greedy executive are you talking about? I just want you to be a little careful. Because I don't believe all executives are greedy. I'm afraid of stereotypes like it's all the greedy executives fault. This just makes it to easy to blame someone else for the fact a lot of Americans got themselves into bad home loans and high credit card debit. Taking personally responsibility for the situation is important. I also think the government has to get involved when things go this bad. Herbert Hoover did nothing during the great depression and the American people built cities in his honor called "Hoovervilles."
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Old February 6th, 2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namvet4
To every American age 21 or above, provide the credit sum of $100,000.00
The rules are simple:
#1 - pay off your mortgage!
#2 - if any funds are left - pay them towards a home equity and or credit card debit.
#3 - if any funds are left - pay off any and all educational loans and non insured medical debts.

If by fortunes smile, you have none of these debts to pay - you don't get the credit.

The funds will be held until verified by the creditor and the debtor and then transferred automatically to settle the debt. Then the next debt in the list is addressed.

When the amount is depleted...you are done.
If you have funds left..you are done.

Simple, right ?????
Imagine the impact on the economy when disposable income is increased(might due wonders for the cruise industry )

Well it was fun dreaming
According to your plan, I don' t get the credit because I choose to be responsible and stay out of debt. HOWEVER, in order to get my cash, I am going to go out and borrow $100,000 so that I do get the money. If fact, I will borrow it from my wife (or my sister or...) so that the money stays in the family.

There are enough bad ideas floating around without us making up even more.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
According to your plan, I don' t get the credit because I choose to be responsible and stay out of debt. HOWEVER, in order to get my cash, I am going to go out and borrow $100,000 so that I do get the money. If fact, I will borrow it from my wife (or my sister or...) so that the money stays in the family.

There are enough bad ideas floating around without us making up even more.
I did indicate I was dreaming, Marc!
But you raise in interesting point. By your words you are responsible and stay out of debt. Would that all of us were so fortunate. There is debt incurred by responsible people; i.e. non insured medical debt, educational debt - just check the outstanding student loan balances to name just 2. Mortgages are a very common responsible debt, and yes I know house poor people who were and are not responsible. There is blame to be put on both the debtor and the creditor in this whole mess!
While my "dream" resolution is just a dream, I venture to say that accountability would be a lot stronger in the dream than in reality.
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Old February 6th, 2009, 05:52 PM
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I am a capitalist, and I think the United States grew to be a great country based on Capitalism and freedom. I am sick at the way our country is moving away from these principles. Capitalism isn't perfect, but from what I've read and experienced, it's the system I prefer to live under. I really believe a lot of our problems are a result of government intervention, greed and power.

I too believe that it is all to easy to jump on the bandwagon of hating the "evil rich". Some may deserve that title, but not all. Most of us want to work hard and make as much money as we can to enjoy the extra things like cruising etc. Also a poor person is not going to provide jobs for anyone.

I also don't think rewarding people that have put themselve into debt is the answer. Allowing people to not pay their mortgages cheats the lender out of money that someone agreed to pay. I know my parents couldn't afford the hospital bills from my brother with his Cerebral Palsy. They worked out a system with the people they owed and paid them back a little at a time on a consistent basis. There are ways to work this out that maintain the dignity of all invovled.

I do not want to live in a socialist country where the govt. controls everything. Some may want that, but not me. Our government as it was set up is to work for the people not the other way around. The pork in our stimulus package will just drain our economy more, and put us deeper into debt.

There are no easy solutions, and I believe we are headed for even tougher times. If our leaders act wisely we may be able to shorten those times. Personally we are trying to be sure we have enough set away for the future and are prepared as best as possible for what is to come.

Phyll
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Old February 7th, 2009, 12:41 AM
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It is greed, greed, greed, on the part of mortgage brokers that provided mortgages to people who really didn't qualify for mortgages that contributed to the "downfall" in the housing market. Also there was the banking industry and the securities exchange commission that didn't regulate how Wall Street conducted business or how the banks gave people loans. What is going to get our country out of this mess is plain old "Keynesian Economics", providing jobs for people so they can spend, "putting an injection into the circular flow of income. When people lose their jobs, they have less money to spend so it is a withdrawel from the circular flow of income. Our congressmen better wake up and forget party differences; they have to work together as a team for the betterment of our country and the economy!
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Old February 7th, 2009, 07:48 AM
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We will never have a strong economy as long as we buy all our clothes and shoes, electronic equipment, cars and just about everything else made overseas. Even the engines on our Air Force planes are put together with parts made overseas.

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Old February 7th, 2009, 10:38 AM
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The bottom line is United is our first name and as a nation we are far from that. We need to get it together or we"ll all be in deep cacka. We need to become one. We need to become the UNITED STATES of AMERICA once again
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Old February 7th, 2009, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocono Pug
The bottom line is United is our first name and as a nation we are far from that. We need to get it together or we"ll all be in deep cacka. We need to become one. We need to become the UNITED STATES of AMERICA once again
The South will rise again!
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Old February 7th, 2009, 02:49 PM
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Phyll well said
Quote:
"I do not want to live in a socialist country where the govt. controls everything. Some may want that, but not me. Our government as it was set up is to work for the people not the other way around. The pork in our stimulus package will just drain our economy more, and put us deeper into debt.
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Old February 8th, 2009, 07:10 PM
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Passing out $800 billion to 300 million citizens will only net $2600 per person. For our economy that will only generate a sugar rush and solve nothing. How many millionaires do you think will spend $2600 to improve their standard of living?

By salvaging the banking industry we prevent a total collapse of the banks which prevents a run on the remaining assets averting a total financial loss. Giving the banks the money essentially allows the citizens to own the banks and establish controls so they don't run rampant again. Deregulating the industry brought us to this point.

When I bought my first home in 1982 the rules were you could only get enough mortgage to bring your total debt up to 37% of your income (that included student loans, car loans and credit cards). But that all flew out the window with deregulation and now the banks are mired in toxic assets and can't get out.

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Old February 8th, 2009, 10:48 PM
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Thomas,

You have valid points and I agree with you except for one. You state that if the "people" own the banks, we'll be able to prevent similar abuses in the future that arose out of deregulation.

As I state on another thread, deregulation occurred in great part when the Glass Steagle Act, in place since 1932 to prevent such abuses as those that occurred leading to The Great Depression and those that occurred most recently, was gutted in 1994 by Congress and signed into law by the then President.

You do understand that when you refer to "the people" owning the banks (meaning nationalizing them), you are in effect advocating that the government run them. Need I remind you what our government did to get us into this situation and despite warnings from all quarters in the current situation, the rush to pack with sickening amounts of "pork" the "Stimulus" package that will inevitably have to be repaid, most likely by our grandchildren and great grandchildren?

Would it not be far simpler just to re-engage the tenets of the Glass Steagle Act (which worked admirably for decades) with possible additional "tweaking" (and I do mean "tweaking') of existing law in related areas?

I take it by your third paragraph that we are in agreement when I say that while providing mortgages to those unable to even think of being able to fulfill them was unconscionable on the part of the banks, that in no way negates the irresponsibility of those accepting such mortgages. With of course some exceptions, those so ignorant or naive to think they could own a residence costing over 240,000 dollars for a total payment including escrow of seven to eight hundred dollars a month, probably shouldn't be allowed to buy ANYTHING more expnsive than a candy bar on credit in order to protect them even more than any lender. We absolutely have to reverse our slide into a society where personal accountably while already counting for very little, will shortly become completely meaningless.

What ever happened to good old fashioned common sense?

Govermental minions are already telling those in some areas what they can or can't eat, what they can or can't listen to, what they can or can't control their children from learning when it comes to personal conduct and behavior, etc., etc., etc. Maybe everyone should go to the library and check out George Orwell's "1984." Big Brother was around far earlier than Orwell ever thought' he'd be.

Todd
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Old February 9th, 2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddDH
Thomas,

You have valid points and I agree with you except for one. You state that if the "people" own the banks, we'll be able to prevent similar abuses in the future that arose out of deregulation.

As I state on another thread, deregulation occurred in great part when the Glass Steagle Act, in place since 1932 to prevent such abuses as those that occurred leading to The Great Depression and those that occurred most recently, was gutted in 1994 by Congress and signed into law by the then President.

You do understand that when you refer to "the people" owning the banks (meaning nationalizing them), you are in effect advocating that the government run them. Need I remind you what our government did to get us into this situation and despite warnings from all quarters in the current situation, the rush to pack with sickening amounts of "pork" the "Stimulus" package that will inevitably have to be repaid, most likely by our grandchildren and great grandchildren?

Would it not be far simpler just to re-engage the tenets of the Glass Steagle Act (which worked admirably for decades) with possible additional "tweaking" (and I do mean "tweaking') of existing law in related areas?

I take it by your third paragraph that we are in agreement when I say that while providing mortgages to those unable to even think of being able to fulfill them was unconscionable on the part of the banks, that in no way negates the irresponsibility of those accepting such mortgages. With of course some exceptions, those so ignorant or naive to think they could own a residence costing over 240,000 dollars for a total payment including escrow of seven to eight hundred dollars a month, probably shouldn't be allowed to buy ANYTHING more expnsive than a candy bar on credit in order to protect them even more than any lender. We absolutely have to reverse our slide into a society where personal accountably while already counting for very little, will shortly become completely meaningless.

What ever happened to good old fashioned common sense?

Govermental minions are already telling those in some areas what they can or can't eat, what they can or can't listen to, what they can or can't control their children from learning when it comes to personal conduct and behavior, etc., etc., etc. Maybe everyone should go to the library and check out George Orwell's "1984." Big Brother was around far earlier than Orwell ever thought' he'd be.

Todd
I'd agree with most of your positions. Unfortunately only the people, i.e. the government, i.e. the federal reserve can bail out the banking industry for their mishaps. We don't want China, or Brazil, or India, or Russia to bail them out, do we? Without question it's imperative the help comes from within. Then, who helps?

Certainly, the people who accepted loans who probably, no....absolutely, couldn't afford them if the market turned south share the blame. They deserve to lose their homes because they took on more responsibility than they could afford. However, that's history! What has to be dealt with is the present, which is thousands of homes on the books which are worth less than the mortgage.

I'm rarely in favor of the government (read: taxpayer) bailing out a failing company but in this instance I'm in agreement. With already 2 million people on the streets looking for jobs it doesn't make sense to send another 2 million into unemployment. It only snowballs into further depression which makes it even tougher to recover.

Regards,
Thomas
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Old February 9th, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Thomas,

Well said. I think you misundertood me relative to the banking situation.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily wrong to bail out the banks (I am not educated enough to make an informed decision on that question); all I'm saying is that we are in effect, nationalizing banks at an increasing rate.

If "the people" (meaning the government) owns the banks, what if they start issuing loans based upon how one votes or pay higher interest rates to savers of one particular political persuasion (depending upon which party is holding sway at the time). Oh, and who do you think would have the cushy jobs of running the branches? Do you think they might be relatives or donors or friends of Congressman Whozit or maybe Senator Pork?

That's the point I was trying to convey.

Todd
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Old February 9th, 2009, 11:50 PM
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There are some good economic news. Most of us are still cruising.

TM
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Old February 10th, 2009, 12:05 AM
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Everybody's hours have been cut where I work; at least I have a job and I have enough money to cruise this year. For this, I am eternally greatful!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old February 11th, 2009, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocono Pug
The bottom line is United is our first name and as a nation we are far from that. We need to get it together or we"ll all be in deep cacka. We need to become one. We need to become the UNITED STATES of AMERICA once again
The South will rise again!
No one in this country will rise by buying imported goods and borrowing money from China and other foreign countries.

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Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
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Equinox 4/11/2011
Independence 12/29/13


Booked Vision of the Seas . 2/14/2015

Booked Allure of the Seas... 2/21/16 *Last Gang Cruise*
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Old February 11th, 2009, 09:53 AM
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The economy - sucks!!! My buying habits have dropped greatly - now, before making a purchase, I ask myself - do I really need this?!, and when I get off from work, I don't stop and pick up supper - I go home and cook!! hubby likes that I'm cooking more - and I really do like to cook so it's not that bad!! but after being at work all day sometimes I do like a break!! - they are just few and far between now!
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