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Old July 4th, 2009, 09:16 PM
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Default To fight or not to fight, that is the question

I say Not! This is an amazing video someone just told me about. I have
never seen anything like it before, and must have missed the bruhaha when it happened! Below is the accompanying commentary..comments?

Carnival Cruise Lines threatens passengers who were assembling peacefully with threats of detainment by federal and local authorities, after the cruise line company refuses to compensate passengers...
Carnival Cruise Lines threatens passengers who were assembling peacefully with threats of detainment by federal and local authorities, after the cruise line company refuses to compensate passengers for a two port cancellation on their four port cruise.

Other Carnival cruise ships on the same itinerary were given a third port to debark at, while the Legend was offered $20 dollars back for port fees. Security guards followed passengers that were seen assembling in the main lobby, internet connections were terminated if passengers tried to upload videos to YouTube, MySpace, or local news channels. Censorship of American's 1st Amendment rights at it's finest. What does Carnival have to say for their companies actions?!!!

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Old July 5th, 2009, 01:04 AM
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Wow!!!!

I am sure others will comment on this that are better knowledgeable than I am, but I thought that you pay for a cruise, and the ports are up to the cruise line. Does it not say that in the contract?

Things like this upset me. I know how quickly a meeting like that can turn ugly very fast.

I was watching not so much the speakers, but those in the back ground. How many do you think were just standing there listening, because the show was over with.

Do we have an outcome?
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Old July 5th, 2009, 03:24 AM
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I feel I don't have all the facts to make a determination on this one. Rotan was cancelled for civil unrest. My guess is the other ports were cancelled for Swine flu. But it's just a guess. I posted on the youtube video to ask if an additional refund/cruise credit was offered, it will be interesting see if I get a reply.
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Old July 5th, 2009, 08:16 AM
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Ports get cancelled for a reason. The Captain just does not decide one morning Hey I don't feel like docking today I think I'll keep the ship at sea.
When ports get cancelled it is for the cruisers benefit. Would I like it...No! Would I understand it....Yes! Would I take the time to attend a meeting like in the video.....Hell No!! you can catch me on my lounger poolside! 8)

I think the lady with the short hair, glasses and dark tshirt just wanted to be on YouTube!! She said it herself "I want this on YouTube."

Meeting like that can turn very ugly so I'm sure it was a big concern for Carnival.

The only thing I don't agree with Carnival was not to keep compensation the same for all their ships and not one ship gets $20, another ship gets another port and another ship gets nothing. Still not enough of a reason to take time out of my cruise to attend a meeting like this. 8)


Just my opinion!
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Old July 5th, 2009, 08:41 AM
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The cruiseline contract basically says, it will take you on a cruise....no port guarenteed, and, lord help me if I ever sail with these folks...

Can you imagine, ejoying yourself by the pool, reading a good book, frolicking in the pool, or napping, when a group of malcontents, comes, by and says, "you want to rumble?" At dinner, one says, pass the bread, and how about forming a mob tomorrow? OY!

Gimme a break......although I do agree, with CQ, that there should try to be equality in what the reimbursement is...but that could get tricky too...
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Old July 5th, 2009, 08:47 AM
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I.M.O. Carnival should put the "instigators" on the "never sail with Carnival or any of their sister companies again" list. There is simply no excuse for this. Carnival makes these decisions for the safety of the passengers! If they can arrange to hit another port, I'm sure they do, if not, well, you get a relaxing day at sea. (Beats hell out of a day at work) Just my opinion.

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Old July 5th, 2009, 09:18 AM
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I dont like either sides reactions. I think alot could have been prevented with better communications. I always find that talking our a problem is better than flaming the fans with letters like this. Better communication may have prevented much of this. Certainly following people to the internet was stupid and preventing things to be posted. It will now result in a bigger story than what was origionally had. At the same time, life happens and I am not going to waste my time in a lobby like this. I dont think the origional out burst was handled OK, and I think it just added to the drama. But I must say I was not there and therefore I dont have all the details.
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Old July 5th, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Delft, you hit the nail squarely on the head!

Having done what I did for a living. To answer Luanne's question, I can tell you that a large number of the passengers in view on the video were, in fact, nothing but observers.

In situations where folks feel af if they've been disaffected and/or disrespected, what you see on the video can and often is a result. The letter issued by Carnival not only provides us knowledge that a situation was brewing but also the letter is also a classic example of how to inflame such a situation. The distribution of a notice packed with threats is not only counterproductive but is in and of itself, inflammatory.

What IMO should have occurred is that someone in higher authority but initially not the Captain, addressed these people directly in the proper venue, such as asking them to move to the theater or another proper meeting area sufficiently large enough to accept the size of the crowd. There he could have again re-stated the reasons why the two ports were being dropped and that doing so was for their own welfare. He could even possibly add that the cruise line was losing money by doing so, through the revenue loss from excusions and citing the extraordinary amount of excess fuel usage dictated by the change. This would have served to undercut the arguments of the few loud complainers. The representative would of course be subject to some nasty questions to which he/she could reply in a professional tone of voice. If the screams and threats continued, only then should he/she even mention the legal ramifications of even a perceived insurrection by some passengers.

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Old July 5th, 2009, 01:14 PM
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We were once on a cruise across the South Pacific on the old Orient Crown Odyssey. There was a major typhoon going on in Fiji so the captain skipped it and substituted More time in Pago Pago and a stop in Raiatea. We still got some VERY rough seas but were spared much, much worse that could have endangered the lives of everyone. We later learned that the port we were to visit was totally devastated by the storm.

Still, there were a group of passengers who were vocal and obnoxious about missing Fiji, There is simply no accounting for the stupidity of some people.
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Old July 5th, 2009, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddDH
What IMO should have occurred is that someone in higher authority but initially not the Captain, addressed these people directly in the proper venue, such as asking them to move to the theater or another proper meeting area sufficiently large enough to accept the size of the crowd. Todd
If this is the same situation I think it is, the handling of the scene was explained on Johns blog. He said the CD did ask everyone to go to the theater and have their concerns heard as well as hearing the ships concerns explained.

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Old July 5th, 2009, 03:01 PM
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Sorry, I missed that Blog.

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Old July 5th, 2009, 04:41 PM
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See this is my problem with the video being on Youtube, it shows only one side. It doesn't explain why the ports were missed. It is my understanding that after the first swine flu cruises the people recieved an additional credit/refund. At one put in the video someone says Carnival violated thier contract that just isn't true. If Carnival feels the people's health and safety are in danger Carnival should and will adjust the ports. I would be thanking Carnival for keeping me safe.
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Old July 5th, 2009, 05:54 PM
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"I would be thanking Carnival for keeping me safe." Me too Katlady, but see my post above.
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Old July 5th, 2009, 06:53 PM
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That's embarrassing, I'm glad I wasn't on that cruise. I should point out I enjoyed my last Carnival cruise.

The possibilities are endless as to why the ports were cancelled. There should be fair amount of compensation due to circumstances brought on by the ship....engine problems?

Until we learn more, hard to judge too sharply.

Perhaps the Captain wanted to get these people off ship as quick as possible?

There are more productive and mature ways to handle these things. This is not one of them.

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Old July 6th, 2009, 09:09 AM
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What a bunch of pains in @ss.

1. The cruise contract states that they may add or remove a port at their discretion and compensation is at the discretion of the cruise line. (An unfair practice but it's there.)

2. What a load of B.S. to "play" mutiny. I don't want some loud mouths ruining my cruise. If you have an issue take it to the Hotel Manager or the main office. I don't want to listen to some loudmouth or whiner.

I have no problem with someone wanting to resolve a grievance but that grievance may or may not be mine so keep it to yourself. If it was me I may have issued a complaint with Carnival for the port fees but I would have done it on my own without broadcasting it to everyone else.

The mob mentality gives many people courage and increases the size mouths by a factor of 3.

Take care,
Mike
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Old July 6th, 2009, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worthew8
That's embarrassing, I'm glad I wasn't on that cruise. I should point out I enjoyed my last Carnival cruise.

The possibilities are endless as to why the ports were cancelled. There should be fair amount of compensation due to circumstances brought on by the ship....engine problems?

Until we learn more, hard to judge too sharply.

Perhaps the Captain wanted to get these people off ship as quick as possible?

There are more productive and mature ways to handle these things. This is not one of them.

Sweet Sailing!
Roatan Honduras was missed because no ships were allowed to dock per the Honduran Government, due to civil unrest.
They should have put these folks off there though, then leave...
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Old July 6th, 2009, 05:16 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the First Ammendment is not a global statute, nor is it applied willy-nilly wherever Americans may choose to be... (although an aircraft carrier can be somewhat persuasive to that end....).
Last time I checked, the specific law that applies on a cruise ship is ultimately the laws of the country under which the ship happens to be flagged, however backward those laws may be. The ship as a whole is bound to observe maritime law when it is at sea, which doesn't have a whole lot in the "civil law" area.
Most countries view crimes like rape and murder with due seriousness, but Flags of Convenience countries (Liberia and Panama spring to mind) tend to deal with "unlawful or disruptive" public assemblies in a manner that might be a smidge unpalatable to some. Ditto for diseminating inflammatory material.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 05:21 PM
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I wish we knew the follow up to this!!
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Old July 6th, 2009, 05:47 PM
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The First Amendment is not a statute at all. It is far superior to any mere statute passed by a legislative body. It is the First of the ten original Bill of Rights -- the most important part of the U.S. Constitution. As such, it is in many respects the basis for freedom, everywhere in the free world today.

Nevertheless, it applies only in America or U.S. Territory. It does not apply on foreign flagged ships on the high seas. And contrary to popular opinion it does not grant the right to say whatever you want whenever you want to say it, even on American soil. Don't believe it? Try this: Stand up in your place of employment and start to vocally denounce your boss. See how far that gets you. Or try running out on the field at a public event, like a football game to give a speech. There is no First Amendment protection there. Nor does it allow you to shout "fire" in a crowded building, to slander anyone or create to a public disturbance. Its purpose was to prevent the government from being able to stifle political speech or to silence critics.

In short, if you think some business entity, a cruise line or whoever, has breached its contract with you -- there are legal ways of dealing with it and asserting your rights. Creating a potentially violent mob scene is NOT one of them.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matelot
Quote:
Originally Posted by worthew8
That's embarrassing, I'm glad I wasn't on that cruise. I should point out I enjoyed my last Carnival cruise.

The possibilities are endless as to why the ports were cancelled. There should be fair amount of compensation due to circumstances brought on by the ship....engine problems?

Until we learn more, hard to judge too sharply.

Perhaps the Captain wanted to get these people off ship as quick as possible?

There are more productive and mature ways to handle these things. This is not one of them.

Sweet Sailing!
Roatan Honduras was missed because no ships were allowed to dock per the Honduran Government, due to civil unrest.
They should have put these folks off there though, then leave...
If that is the case, they should very, VERY thankful the captain and the Line made the right decision.

Another question? Were the pax told of this while on the ship?

Any day on a ship beats being stranded in a hostile country.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 08:13 PM
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"The First Amendment is not a statute at all."

Globally, in the impossibly unlikely event it is adopted into worldwide law, I bet it can never be more than simply a statute. That is why I referred to it as such.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M
What a bunch of pains in @ss.

1. The cruise contract states that they may add or remove a port at their discretion and compensation is at the discretion of the cruise line. (An unfair practice but it's there.)

2. What a load of B.S. to "play" mutiny. I don't want some loud mouths ruining my cruise. If you have an issue take it to the Hotel Manager or the main office. I don't want to listen to some loudmouth or whiner.

I have no problem with someone wanting to resolve a grievance but that grievance may or may not be mine so keep it to yourself. If it was me I may have issued a complaint with Carnival for the port fees but I would have done it on my own without broadcasting it to everyone else.

The mob mentality gives many people courage and increases the size mouths by a factor of 3.

Take care,
Mike
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Old July 6th, 2009, 09:05 PM
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Captain,

Yes it is a statute in that an Amendment can be considered a statute. However, as Rich so aptly implied, as one of the Rights in the Bill of Rights, it cannot be altered in any way. Were it to be, the United States of America would cease to exist simply because the foundation of it's system of government would instantly collapse were that to ever occur.

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Old July 6th, 2009, 09:25 PM
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At least there should be a standare reembersment of the port charges when a port is missed for whatever reason. The cruiseline that is skipping a port I would assume would not have to pay it. Why not pass it on to the passengers along with may-be a free happy hour?? That would help keep spirits up and avoid a total misunderstanding??
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Old July 6th, 2009, 09:44 PM
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A 'statute' is a legislative act: an act passed by a legislative body such as Congress or a Parliament, a state legislature or a city council. In sharp contrast, the Constitution is the system of fundamental principles according to which a nation or state is governed. In the Case of the U.S. Constitution (a truly unique document in human history) it is the document which among other things gives the Congress the authority to exist and to pass statutes governing certain defined areas of law.

It is not true that the Constitution can't be changed -- it's not easy, but it can be, by a very complex and difficult amendment process.

There have been 26 amendments to the constitution, the first ten of which are known as the Bill of Rights.
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Old July 6th, 2009, 11:06 PM
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Her 15 minutes of fame are over. There is nothing worse than a herd mentality. I have seen drunks on ships who behaved better than she did and they were put in the brig.

Had I been on that ship, I would have gone to the uppermost outdoor bar, ordered a beer and sat and watched the sea - I would want no part of any of this nonsense! It is a pathetic display of stupidity.

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Old July 7th, 2009, 04:02 PM
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if the world adopted it it would be a statute. aint gonna happen so moot point.
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Old July 7th, 2009, 10:08 PM
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With due respect Captain, I practiced law for 40 years and have yet to see "the world" "adopt" anything. There is no world body capable of doing that.

Besides there are at least 50 countries in the world that specifically despise any form of freedom of speech, or for that matter anything smacking of freedom or tolerance at all.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 01:21 PM
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"aint gonna happen so moot point"

I thought I was clear on this.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
"Mike M"The cruise contract states that they may add or remove a port at their discretion and compensation is at the discretion of the cruise line. (An unfair practice but it's there.)
So, theoretically, the cruise line could simply tow a disabled ship out to
sea and drop anchor for a week, and the cruise line would meet the terms of the contract. No?

At what point do cruisers have a legitimate gripe?

Cheers, Aidan
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