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Old January 6th, 2010, 12:33 AM
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Who fired the first shots in the attack on Pearl Harbor, U.S. or Japan?
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:11 AM
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I should know this. My mom's uncle has at Peral Harbor during the attack. She remembers his car had bullet holes from the attack. I'm guessing the US saw the Japanense and the US fired the first shots.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:22 AM
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Dean, by default your question's answer is Japan, ie if the US fired the first shot the "attack on Pearl Harbor" had not yet begun? Not until their first shot??? ;-)


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Who fired the first shots in the attack on Pearl Harbor, U.S. or Japan?
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:35 AM
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Liam,

I'll let Katlady disect the logic of my question -- she's getting pretty good with this logical fallacy stuff!

But let me just say, that I am referring to the "event" of the Pearl Harbor attack.

And so, none of this lets you off the hook from venturing an answer to the trivia question! So answer away my friend!
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:52 AM
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Googled your question and you should change it to "Who fired the first shots in World War 2 between the U.S. and Japan?" ?????
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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:34 AM
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Henry Fonda, John Wayne or Ben Affleck :: ::..depends on which movie about Pearl Harbor that you saw

I remember watching the History Channel about this the first shots were fired by the US as the Zero's flew over the army base on the way to attack Pearl Harbor
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Old January 6th, 2010, 08:34 AM
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This supports the theory the President knew about the attack. The theory is FDR and the Government had broken the Japanense code and knew of the attack. But FDR wanted the support of the American people before he entered WWII the Japanense attack on American soil go him the support of the public. This is a theory it is not fact no one knows for sure if it's true.

What is true is the attack on Pearl Habor was not successful. The Japanese withdraw before destroying the vital dockyards, maintenance shops, and oil depots. All the attack did was wake the sleeping giant and bring the US in WWII.

Venice I prefer the older movies so it was Henry Fonda that shot first.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:12 AM
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The main thing that ruined the Jappanese' day, was the fact that there were no aircraft carriers at Pearl on that Sunday. One of their main objectives was to destroy all the U.S. aircraft carriers.

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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:12 PM
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skymaster,

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The main thing that ruined the Jappanese' day, was the fact that there were no aircraft carriers at Pearl on that Sunday. One of their main objectives was to destroy all the U.S. aircraft carriers.
True enough, but I'm sure that they later rued the fact that they also did not damage the battleships more thoroughly. Of the battleships damaged at Pearl Harbor, only two were permanently lost -- and those were the only U. S. battleships lost in the whole of the war. All of the rest of the battleships of the Pacific Fleet returned to action in very short order, bristling with dozens of new 20mm and 40mm antiaircraft guns on top of turrets and wherever else there was enough room for them and subsequently had a field day taking out Japanese aircraft, the so-called "Marianas Turkey Shoot" being one of the more famous examples, in addition to supplying the heavy firepower needed to get landing forces ashore in all of the amphibious landings throughout the Pacific. Admiral Nimitz subsequently assigned the older battleships, which generally were slower, to the Seventh Fleet, which was supporting General MacArthur's advance northward toward Japan from Australia while the newer battleships, which could keep up with the aircraft carriers, remained with the main battle force of the Pacific Fleet, alternately called the Third Fleet and the Fifth Fleet depending upon whether Admiral Halsey or Admiral Spruance happened to be in command, which supported the Marines' westward advance toward Japan from Hawai'i.

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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:31 PM
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Okay Dean,

Haven't been around for awhile as well you know and I just saw your trivia questions which, by some strange coincidence, is right up my alley.

The first ordinance expended on 7 December 1941 occurred hours before the attack and was from a US destroyer that spotted a Japanese sub (undoubtedly one of the mini-subs) attempting to get into the harbor.

Katlady; the claim that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor in advance has been widely disseminated but those who are real students of the war (as am moi -- the only claim to knowledge I'll ever make) know their history or even if one is not that well versed but looks at all the angles do not believe it. Of course there are always what I refer to as, the "conspiracy nuts."

The reasoning is that Roosevelt wanted the Japanese to hit first. Such is most certainly true and is a wish that is well documented.

But it ends right there. Logically, if the President knew it was going to be Pearl, He could have had his cake and eaten it too.

Among many possibilites the Navy could have sailed everything worth sailing out of harm's way, had AA batteries up and ready to go, put out picket ships and many more search planes, and still allowed the Japs to fire the first shots. There would be absolutely no need whatsoever for the loss of over 2,000 American lives nor such an horrific level of damage would need result from that first attack and certainly virtually all of the aircraft at Hickam would not have been kept in the condition they were at the time of the attack. Additionally, if Roosevelt knew of the attack then reason would stand he knew from whence it was coming. Therefore the Navy would have easily arranged a fleet of submarines and the more modern of the old and obsolescent battleships then at Pearl along with two carriers, to lie in ambush when the blow came. As you can see, the idea that Roosevelt knew in advance that on December 7, 1941 Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked was preposterous and the only creditable WW II historian who by the way wrote an excellent book on the Battle of the Bulge, absolutely blew his credibility on the Pacific theater when he seriously advanced the possibility you mention. I am most certainly not alone in always wondering if the fact that he had married a Japanese girl had any influence on his thinking. The volume to which I'm referring put book to a theretofore illustrious career.

Roosevelt and all the brass knew Japan was going to strike. But everyone thought it would probably be in what was then called Indo-China or possibly, the Phillipines. Only at the last minute did anyone even remotely think it could be Pearl and consequently sent an emergency message......but due to a miscue by Western Union, it went as a commercial message and was sitting in an in-box awaiting delivery when the bombs started falling. As a matter of fact, the Western Union kid on his bike delivered the message in the middle of the attack.

Hope the above suffices for the "first shot" and Roosevelt's alleged culpability.

Todd
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:22 PM
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Sherry and Todd,

You guys are correct -- the first shots fired at Pearl Harbor were by the U.S.

Several hours before the Japanese attack, United States Navy destroyer USS Ward DD139, patrolling off the harbor entrance discovered a Imperial Japanese Navy Ko-hyoteki-class midget submarine attempting to enter the harbor, and sank her with main battery rifle fire.

(USS Ward DD139, September, 1918, off the coast of California)


Interestingly, I turned up a photo of USS Ward DD139's main battery rifle #3, which fired the shots that sank the midget submarine

(USS Ward DD139 main battery rifle #3, on display at the Minnesota State Capitol)
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Old January 6th, 2010, 11:19 PM
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I'm happy to report ToddDh post had NO logical fallacis; only facts. I will always concede the point on facts. Really interesting stuff. History is one of my favorites. :-D I do want to point out I would never claim the FDR stuff as fact. My post calls it a theory, apparently not a good theory but a theory all the same.

I have been to Oahu (have relatives there). But we did not see Pearl Harbor. It was for my 21st Birthday and my mom is a planning nut she planned every part of that trip. That is probably were I get it from. This just means I have to go back and see Pearl Harbor. I have been on a quest to find the long lost Hawaiian relatives so if you are in Hawaii and meant anyone with the last name Gomes tell them to give me a call.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:22 AM
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Kat..don't forget while you are tracing your family tree :: to find "our" relatives in Rio so I have somewhere to stay for Carnival

when I lived in Seattle, my neighbors had parents who were placed in "relocation camps" in eastern Washington during WW2 due to the fact that they were born in Japan, but had been United States citizens since they were 18 years old...her Dad "volunteered" to serve in the Army and served in the division that was sent to Italy and was one of the most decorated division (and also took one of the highest casualties rates in the army) in the history of the US armed forces

the WW2 museum in new orleans has a great exhibit about how the government reacted differently to US citizens of Japan/Germany descend during WW2

anyone that is a fan of WW2 should travel to New Orleans, enjoy our food and music but your first stop should be the museum and then catch your your cruise ship
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:55 AM
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Don't worry Kat, I knew you weren't standing behind the claim, but rather just "putting it out there."

Leave it to you Dean to come up with good subject photos. Was especially interested in the photo of the 3" rifle. At least Mike could see it as I'm sure no one is interested in going to Minnesota this winter as the "global warming" is reeking havoc up there!

Those interested in the Pacifc Theater of Operations should not confuse The USS Ward DD-139 to which Dean refers with the USS Aaron Ward DD-483 constructed in 1941 and which had also had a stellar history before being sunk in the Solomon Islands.

Oh and by the way, I have a shoulder patch designed for the Fletcher Class USS De Haven, DD-469 sunk off Savo Island in 1943 with the loss of over 150 lives following a Japanese air attack. In case you're wondering, to the best of my knowledge I was not related to the De Haven's namesake.

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Old January 7th, 2010, 05:47 PM
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Todd,

Here's a little I dug up on "your" ship.

In addition to your information, On 1 February 1943, United States Navy destroyer USS De Haven DD469 was screening 6 Landing Craft Tank ships and 1 seaplane tender off the coast of Marovo, Guadalcanal. While escorting 2 of the LCT's back to their base, USS De Haven DD469 was attacked by 6 Japanese aircraft, shooting down 3 of them. In the ensuing action all 6 aircraft dropped bombs toward the ship, 3 of which hit her, causing extensive damage. USS De Haven DD469 sank 2 miles east of Savo Island, having suffered 167 KIA and 38 wounded. She received one Battle Star for her wartime service.


(USS De Haven DD469, after launching at Bath Iron Works, 28 June 1942)
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:25 PM
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Cool, Dean!

Thanks for the additional info!

Todd
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:37 PM
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Todd and Mean Dean..you two should take a "guys only trip" to New Orleans and I will treat you to the WW2 Museum and then take you into the French Quarter for dinner and then tour Bourbon Street on saturday night at midnight and you can see some real battleships
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
Todd and Mean Dean..you two should take a "guys only trip" to New Orleans and I will treat you to the WW2 Museum and then take you into the French Quarter for dinner and then tour Bourbon Street on saturday night at midnight and you can see some real battleships
Or we could all meet on Oahu. It's 80 degrees and sunny in Oahu today.8)
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Old January 8th, 2010, 09:13 AM
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Kat..and that's why I love you you are always looking out for the men on these boards
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Old January 10th, 2010, 08:20 AM
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Sherry,

Iíve visited Oahu, in April, 2000. And while there, spent a day at Pearl Harbor.

And while Pearl Harbor homeports more submarines than surface ships these days, I wasnít much interested in the submarines. Or the few antenna ships.

I was interested in the large-caliber surface combat shipsÖ..

3 of which are still home-ported at Pearl Harbor: United States Navy battleship USS Arizona BB 39, United States Navy battleship USS Utah BB 31, United States Navy battleship USS Missouri BB 63.

For me, this was hallowed ground. Here at this place, I got to connect with my dad.

(USS Chicago CA 29, off Pearl Harbor, Honolulu, Hawaii, circa 1939.)


United States Navy heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29 was home-ported at Pearl Harbor in October of 1940. Dad told me of times he spent in Hawaii, on the beach in Waikiki, in town in Honolulu. He even photographed movie stars; his photo of actress Dorothy Lamour is in his war diary.

(Third Division, USS Chicago CA 29, Summer 1941, Lahaina Maui)


Before the war, United States Navy heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29 participated with the Pacific Fleet in fleet exercises off the coast of Hawaii. USS Chicago CA 29 fired large-caliber main battery rifle projectiles at target barges, her main battery gunnery department earning an "E" for efficiency. Dad was particularly proud of USS Chicago CA 29ís main battery rifle departmentís "E". When I was a youngster touring Portlandís Rose Festival Fleet, Dad pointed out the visiting shipís "E" for efficiency.

Dad also taught me United States Navy pennants. Whichever ship had a "Commanding Officer Aboard" pennant aloft, thatís the ship Dad wanted us to visit. Thanks to Dad, I met many 4-Stripers.

Thanks to Dad, I toured several famous United States Navy warships. United States Navy destroyer, USS Maddox DD 731, involved in the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. United States Navy guided missile cruiser, USS Vincennes CG 49. On the fore-deck of United States Navy guided missile cruiser, USS Vincennes CG 49, I met commanding officer, United States Navy Captain Will Rogers III.

(USS Maddox DD731, early 1960's)



(USS Vincennes CG 49, undated)


On the night of 31 May 1942-1 June 1942, USS Chicago CA 29 successfully defeated 3 Japanese midget submarines that attempted to sink her while at anchor in Sydney, Australia. While one submarine got entangled in an anti-submarine net, the other two launched torpedoes against USS Chicago CA 29. One torpedo completely destroyed another vessel anchored nearby, the other went ashore, landing in the middle of a garden party.

(USS Chicago CA 29 entering Sydney Harbor 31 May 1942) (Note that USS Chicago CA 29 is no longer in Haze Gray, but in dark gray war paint. Note also that USS Chicago CA 29 carries her hull number fore and aft, and carries triple life rafts along her main battery turrets. )



Dad is a combat veteran. Dad was gun captain, left gun, turret 3, United States Navy heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29. Having fired large-caliber main battery rifle projectiles at the enemy, USS Chicago CA 29 provided fire support for United States Marines landing along the Solomon Islands. 9 August 1942, during the Battle of Savo Island, United States Navy heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29 responding to Imperial Japanese Navy heavy cruiser main battery rifle fire, fired large-caliber main battery rifle projectiles at the enemy, scoring a hit on Imperial Japanese Navy heavy cruiser Kako.

Heavily damaged after action at Savo Island, USS Chicago CA 29 limped into Espiritu Santo for temporary repairs. While there, Dad inspected #3ís rifles, and discovered that they had their rifle linings shot 10" out.

(USS Chicago CA 29, 10 August 1942, damage control team assessing damage from surface action of 9 August 1942.)





(USS Chicago CA 29 entering the harbor at Espirito Santo 11 August 1942)


USS Chicago CA 29, heavily damaged in the Battle of Savo Island, returned to her birth place, Mare Island Navy Shipyard, San Fransico California, 19 October 1942. While there, USS Chicago CA 29 received a new permanent bow, and a new fire-control radar system. USS Chicago CA 29 also received 9 brand new 8" main battery rifles, her previous main battery rifles having had their linings completely shot out. No other large-caliber surface combat ship in the United States Navy had ever had her main battery rifle linings shot 10" out. The Navy brought in special cranes to replace all 9 8" main battery rifles with the breech. An 8" large-caliber main battery rifle with the breech weighs over 200,000 pounds.

(USS Chicago CA 29, under repair, Mare Island, San Francisco, California, United States, 20 October 1942 - 20 December 1942)



During USS Chicago CA 29ís 2-month layover at Mare Island, Captain Ralph Otis Davis ordered all hands to remove all of their valuables from the ship. Dad traveled by train from San Francisco to Salem, Oregon, to visit my grandparents for several weeks. During which he left with them his war diary. The war diary I now posses.

(USS Chicago CA 29, underway, San Francisco Bay, after refit at Mare Island, 20 December 1942)


United States Navy heavy cruiser USS Chicago CA 29, one of only 6 United States Navy ships fitted with an RCA CXAM fire-control radar, and fitted with 9 brand new 8" main battery rifles, sailed for the South Pacific.

(USS Chicago CA 29, middle ship, echelon-left formation, along with her sister, USS Louisville CA 28. Photo taken from USS Wichita CA 45, Flagship TF 18, Rear Admiral Robert C. Giffen, Commanding.)



On the night of 29 January 1943, USS Chicago CA 29, engaged in the Battle of Rennell Island, fired 8" main battery projectiles in support of Allied landing operations. Simultaneously under attack from Japanese torpedo aircraft, USS Chicago CA 29 responded with anti-aircraft fire, and shot down several attacking Japanese aircraft, two of which, burning brightly, illuminated USS Chicago CA 29, providing light for further torpedo attacks. Later on the evening of 29 January 1943, Japanese aircraft launched torpedoes against USS Chicago CA 29, hitting her twice. USS Chicago CA 29, able to right herself, but barely able to maneuver, received a tow, in the dark of night, from her sister, heavy cruiser, USS Louisville CA 28. USS Louisville CA 28 towed her ailing sister throughout the night at 4 knots, through the very early hours of 30 January 1943.

(USS Chicago CA 29, under tow by her sister, heavy cruiser USS Louisville CA 28, early morning, 30 January 1943, off Rennell Island)



Rear Admiral Robert C. Giffen then elected to withdraw all of TF-18, leaving USS Chicago CA 29 under tow by fleet tug USS Navajo, and 6 screening destroyers.

Shortly after USS Louisville CA 28 handed off towing duties to USS Navajo, the morning of 30 January 1943, USS Chicago CA 29 came under attack again. USS Chicago CA 29ís screening destroyers put up a fierce screen of anti-aircraft fire, shooting down several Japanese Betty torpedo planes. The second wave of Japanese Bettys attacked, this time passing through severe anti-aircraft fire, and launched torpedoes against heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29. Many torpedoes missed, but 4 torpedoes struck USS Chicago CA 29 as she was under tow. One struck forward of her bridge, putting her main battery director out of action, and 3 struck her amidships, in her engineering departments, rendering her immobile and sinking.

(USS Chicago CA 29, off Rennell Island, late morning, 30 January 1943, after departure of TF 18. USS Chicago CA 29, completely defenseless, down by the stern, has dropped a bow anchor, to maintain her position, awaiting tow by fleet tug, USS Navajo.)



In the gathering twilight, Commanding officer, Captain Ralph O. Davis, ordered all hands abandon ship. Dad saw to it that all hands under his command were evacuated, and all surviving hands, vis-a-vis USS Chicago CA 29 were evacuated in 20 minutes.

United States Navy heavy cruiser, USS Chicago CA 29 sank by the stern with colors flying.

Dad and 1048 of his shipmates floated around in shark-infested waters off the coast of Rennell Island for 45 minutes until USS Chicago CA 29ís screening destroyers were able to rescue her survivors.
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