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  #61 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 07:33 PM
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Venice,

I agree with the above. Your idea is brilliant! What a marketing tool it would be as well!

Todd
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
let's move on to cruise topics that are much more important, like when are the cruise lines going to introduce a "rebate sign and sail card" (much like the discover card) where you earn points for onboard purchases that you can redeem at the end of the cruise for future cruises
Venice, great idea! The Princess Visa card does give you double points for any Princess charges (cruise fare, onboard charges, etc.) and "single" points for all other charges. We use our card all the time now instead of store cards.

We'd love to get even more points!
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 07:39 PM
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Captain Tennille,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You View Post
"You seem to be confusing wealth with social standing. Though historically correlated, they are not the same."

Maybe true in Britain but not the USA. In America, especially in America, wealth and standing are totally synonymous. Maybe you have "old" wealth, and "new" wealth, but money still does all the talking.
Ah, have you ever heard the term nouveau rich?

Do you have a clue from whence it comes?

Ever hear the classic American toast:

Here's to good ol' Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots
But the Cabots talk only to God.

that comes straight from the birthplace of our liberty?

Those who have true class may do business with the nouveau rich, but they do NOT socialize with them.

And incidentally, it's very easy to tell the difference. Those who have true class are gracious, even to those who don't. It really stands out in their courtesy not only to their tablemates, but also to the waitstaff, the activities staff, and the other officers, staff, and crew with whom they deal. You won't hear them saying that the captain is aboard the ship for their pleasure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
And now, Masters of the Vessel are middle-class schmucks from Italy or Norway with two kids and a Volvo. Nobility indeed.
Yes, they have moved up a rank or two in life.

Norm.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 07:46 PM
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Captain Tennille,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You View Post
Paul (and Others)...

There is one problem with respecting the dress code to this day...
There is no lobster, or decent steak, or dare I say comparable food in the alternate dining options on even the biggest and newest of ships. (Carnival Freedom springs to mind)

My young son was acting up, so we ate alternate almost EVERY day for two weeks on the Freedom, out of respect for our fellow diners. (Don't you dare say I don't have respect for my fellow passengers) Trust me when I say it sucked compared to the main dining room. The offerings were no better on Formal nights.... (I had burgers pretty much every day.)

If you want decent food, you still have to go to the main dining room or paid alternate restaurants, and that means dress code, or choosing to ignore it.
This practice seems to vary widely from one cruise line to another. I know that Celebrity's "alternative casual dining" menus are not the same as the menus in the main dining room, but I understand that Princess's dinner buffet does serve the same menu as the main dining room.

Norm.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 08:01 PM
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Paul,

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That reiterates what I said - one can dress how one pleases and choose to ignore how other people view them. That is fully one's right. One could go to the grocery store in their pajamas (a lot of people do) as well.

It does say that as far as dress goes they don't really care how how others view them. It doesn't say they don't respect others. It just means they respect their own right not to have to conform more.
The problem here is that failure to conform puts the cruise line in a very awkward situation. If the cruise line has advertised "formal" evenings, I as a paying passenger have a right to expect the ambiance of a true "formal" evening, and participants dressing in "formal" (or "modified formal") attire is part of what sets that ambiance. When a passenger shows up in attire that does not conform, a cruise line that enforces its dress code angers the offending passengers while failure to enforce that dress code exposes the cruise line to liability for false advertising and breach of contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I don't like people who swear a lot.
On many cruise lines, offensive would fall under the "zero tolerance" policies that are now in vogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
It is a bit hypocritical to respect a Scotman's right to wear a kilt to dinner, but if a Boy George fan showed up in a dress the house would probably come down.
One of Celebrity's Trans-Atlantic cruises a few years ago drew a group of transvestites, several of whom were travelling with their wives, who had planned to leave the ship in Key West to participate in the pre-Halloween festival there. Alas, Hurricane Wilma closed the island for a couple weeks right before our scheduled arrival, disrupting their plans. But on the "formal" evenings, they all came to dinner in their wigs and make-up wearing formal dresses, hose, and high heels, and looking very stylish. I don't have a problem with that, if that is their choice. There was virtually no todo whatsoever among the other passengers about this.

I also don't see a problem with women wearing "women's tuxedos" for the "formal" evenings.

Norm.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old March 18th, 2010, 08:51 PM
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Norm: The term is "nouveau riche". If you want to accuse others of not "having a clue", might I suggest you at least spell it correctly. The pot just called the kettle black it appears.

It is a EUROPEAN term. Tends not to apply too much in the New World... "ancien or ancienne riche" is 200 years in America... tops.

Tiger Woods is as Nouveau Riche as you get. I bet he can still live in any neighbourhood he chooses. (Even being "of colour" and an admitted cad.) I bet he can get membership in ANY CLUB (besides the KKK) he chooses.

Edited to add: You use "true class" in two different contexts in a preceeding statement. Consequently, I have no clue what you are talking about. "Of class" denotes social standing or distinction. Having "class" denotes behaviour. Being wealthy has nothing to do with the latter. As for the former, wouldn't it lack class NOT to socialize with the nouveau riche, if one would socialize with the Captain? Are you implying that the nouveau riche have no class (as in behaviour)?

Last edited by Captain Tennille; March 18th, 2010 at 09:05 PM.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 03:50 AM
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Don't know about elsewhere, but the term "nouveau riche" in this country has always been pretty much as explained by Norm.

To put it succinctly, it is understood to be used for those who have more recently acquired money...a lot of money...but don't have the familial background steeped in both the social graces and "old" money.

I assure you Captain, there are venues wherein a multi millionaire mega move star while he/she may be invited (primarily as that night's conversation piece), would never be accepted on the same social plane as the others in attendance at that venue. An example would be my winning a 63 million dollar jackpot lottery. While it sure as hell would open a lot of doors, it would have no effect on others that would most probably always remain closed.

About the only way I know of that such a door would be open to an individual with a lot of money, would be if the individual was also steeped in the social graces and I'm not just referring to opening a car door for a lady. Then, while still technically being noveau riche, allowances would be made.

I'm not saying such behavior is correct. I'm only saying that while certainly nowhere near as extensive as in the later 19th and early 20th century, it nevertheless still exists and probably always will.

Todd
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 04:17 AM
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Captain...living in the deep South in New Orleans during Mardi Gras Ball season is a classic example of Todd and Norm's point

however, prior to Tiger's discretion, even with all of his fame and $$$$$, there are still certain private Country Clubs where (because of his race), he would not be invited to play not even a practice round

interesting, one of the venues where there is no distinction between "old" and "new" $$$ is with Special Olympics..every 4 years I get to hang out with the Kennedy's (who some say, because of how Joe Kennedy acquired his wealth, is not "old" money but "tainted wealth"

final point..in my experience 'class" is often wasted on those that are rich, so even if Todd did not win the 63M lottery, he would still have more class then say____________what was the Rodney Dangerfield movie where he (new money) was trying to get into a private country club so his daughter would be accepted by her future husband's (old money) family and come to find out, Rodney has more class then his future inlaws
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 05:08 AM
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If you were to ask certain Europeans what the definition of "Nouveau Riche" was.... their answer would be one word......."Americans".

Kinda like saying a collective "You Wish..." huh?

And describing the Kennedy's as "old money"???? Before prohibition in the 20's (and with the help of the Labatt & O'Keefe (Irish) families as well as the Bronfmans (Jewish) up North, across the border)... well.... they didn't have any. But, I guess that is definitely "old" to Americans. Therein lies MY point.

Some Europeans can trace their wealth and standing back to feudal times, even Roman times. You ain't really "riche" unless your family has at least one castle... not a lot of those (real ones) in the ol' US of A.

Last edited by Captain Tennille; March 19th, 2010 at 05:30 AM.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 06:35 AM
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As regards Norm, he and I have had our differences of opinion over the years. Splitting hairs perhaps more than anything else. As an United States Naval officer, Norm has parsed my United States Navy recollections on occasion.

And as such, one cannot dismiss his arguments vis-a-vis a typographical error.

And as such, Norm's posts are particularly well researched. There are those who are averse to having their statements confronted with facts. And while not that often, I've been irritated with Norm's factual posts. But I am impressed with researched, factual statements. And where I may have gone off-track, Norm's researched factual responses get a pass.

Captain Tennille, you by your posts remind me of someone else. A Cynic of sorts. And I have to say, that I find my opinions aligned with your's from time to time.

But on these points particularly, your opinions differ dramatically from mine.

And perhaps you're right, perhaps it's time to lay this topic to rest. Perhaps it is better that, than to cross arms across a dinner table.....
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 07:37 AM
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Dean: I am far from a cynic, however, you're being generous by calling it a typo (the same one twice??? hmmm.). Also, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE here at CM to imply someone does 'not have a clue'. That is a personal attack. I'm also not going to bother bringing it up with the mods... because they will do, well, nothing.

That being said, if we all agreed, Cruisemates would be a boring place indeed. Finally, I don't know why my arms would be crossed across the dinner table.... you've never met me. You might actually find me quite engaging in person.

On another note, my grandfather, even though he lived in Canada most of his adult life, refused to give up his British citizenship and become (egads) a "colonial". He was by no means wealthy, but he saw a class distinction anyhow.

Last edited by Captain Tennille; March 19th, 2010 at 07:54 AM.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 11:09 AM
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what I enjoy most about this board (along with posts and pictures by Kat and CQ of young ladies in Brazilian cut bikinis) is the fact that we can have an :neutral:electronic back yard :neutral: discussion that simulates a scene one might find in the tv show Cheers:o

I think it's fun, healthy, educational, and yes we all go over the line from time to time (thank God we have fair minded moderators), but the fact that we have these threads that allow us to do that, shows that we have more in common then we have differences...in the real world chances are we would never cross paths, and thus never exchange our views...the fact that it is an electronic exchange, allows that to happen

we can all agree on one aspect..all of us have to keep Paul in checktoo bad we can't all figure out how to be on the same CruiseMate Group Cruise where we could have these discussions like this every night after dinner while are spouses are out having fun and spending $$$$$$$

Captain,,, I do agree that Americans will always be considered "less noble" by our counterparts in Europe due to the fact that we don't have at least one castle in our family..but was not the reason, why the White House was designed to be the :eek:People's House :eek: so there would be no monarchy
ok, which of you is buying the next round of the drink of the day
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 06:28 PM
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Venice> Not running down Americans here, just explaining the real meaning of the term "nouveau riche".... and how Americans use the term loosely at best when they describe their "society" folk.

You ain't got nothing on European snobbery... which is not necessarily a 'bad thing' either... to paraphrase an American snob.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old March 19th, 2010, 11:17 PM
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Yes ,I vividly recall the 1972 shooting .
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2010, 01:35 AM
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There are snobs from every country just as there are what I refer to as "trash" from every country.. No one has a lock on behavior, whether it be acceptable or otherwise.

The decline in social graces I am convinced is a direct corollary of the continuing decline in educational standards all over the western world combined with several other factors including the bottom falling out of acceptable conduct being taught in the home. The subsequent result has also a major factor in the bottom falling out of ethics in general and the work ethic in particular.

All one has to do to validate my hypothesis one need only to read some of the nostalgia magazines that abound. I subscribe to four of them.

Todd
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2010, 03:35 AM
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" It Takes A Village To Raise A Child" comes to mind because the village provided many positive role models to emulate..society has too many negative role models and glorifies the negative (I watch too much TMZ on tv) and the concept of a nurturing village does not exist in our world today

If earth (to be more specific the United States) was invaded by aliens from outer space..and if these aliens studied tv from the 1950's to the present, on their ride to earth, as a way to study our culture and viewed CNN to watch our Congress in session , they would turn around and go home disgusted (or very scared)
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2010, 04:09 AM
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Venice: Nancy Grace alone would scare any invading alien race away. (and make them feel inadequate)
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2010, 04:26 AM
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Captain..good one
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:43 PM
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Captain Tennille,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You View Post
Norm: The term is "nouveau riche".
You are correct as to spelling. Most French nouns and adjectives have a final "e" only in the feminine gender, so I dropped it to agree with "nouveau," which is masculine (the feminine form is "nouvelle"), without checking. Alas, the French-English Dictionary shows "riche" to be an exception which I had forgotten in the ~35 years since my last formal French class.

And actually, the French would more likely use the plural -- nouveax riches....

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
It is a EUROPEAN term.
French, to be more precise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Tends not to apply too much in the New World... "ancien or ancienne riche" is 200 years in America... tops.
Oh, the term still applies here. The contrary, "old money," just needs to go back perhaps a couple generations in which "finishing schools" and the like have become the norm.

That said, there are families that are very much "old money" here in the Northeast. Factually, two of the last three U. S. presidents came from such a family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Tiger Woods is as Nouveau Riche as you get. I bet he can still live in any neighbourhood he chooses. (Even being "of colour" and an admitted cad.)
Legally, yes.

But it's one thing to live in a neighborhood and another thing to belong to the "in" social class of that neighborhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I bet he can get membership in ANY CLUB (besides the KKK) he chooses.
Don't be so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
"Of class" denotes social standing or distinction. Having "class" denotes behaviour. Being wealthy has nothing to do with the latter.
Nor the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
As for the former, wouldn't it lack class NOT to socialize with the nouveau riche, if one would socialize with the Captain?
Those who have true class act very graciously toward others whenever they meet.

Nonetheless, they don't necessarily invite their nouveau riche associates to their homes for dinner.

Do you see the distinction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Are you implying that the nouveau riche have no class (as in behaviour)?
Yes, that is the insinuation of the term, which comes from a time when those who were wealthy sent their sons to prim and proper universites and their daughters to "finishing schools" to be immersed in the social graces.

Norm.
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