Are cruisers also going to be jailed for a peck on the cheek?

[ToddDH]

All countries have customs that visiting foreigners should follow even if they're not yours. If you can't or wish not to do so, don't go there. But when things get ridiculously out of hand, as in a situation that is completely innocent most anywhere else in the world, I as an American would personally never wish to spend my hard earned money or in any manner regardless of how small, wish to enrich or support the economies of such countries in which incidents I'm about to describe occur, especially if cities within those countries may have listed cruise ports of call.

What generated my anger? A British couple have been sentenced to one month in prison for kissing in public in a restaurant in Dubai. This is a no-no in the Mosley world, parts of in which it is still not an unusual practice to stone women and even young girls to death for having sex out of marriage (which also can include, I kid you not, those who are raped!!) and let us not forget, the sometimes slow decapitation of a bound prisoner with a knife in front of a video camera and the chopping off of hands. The couple, who claim they know one another but are not in a relationship, ran into each other recently in a Dubai restaurant and gave each other a kiss on the cheek. At any rate, that's their claim. Okay, maybe a fine. But a MONTH IN JAIL???

But even if the amorous actions of this couple entailed a little more passion (such as a kiss on the mouth) than has been admitted, I nevertheless cannot fathom doing business with nor especially visiting and spending my money in countries that either actively enforce or at least tolerate such harsh laws and abominable punishments that are light years beyond the seriousness of the offense, at least in the Twenty-First century. The United States is being routinely excoriated throughout the world, especially in the Muslim world, for "torturing" sadistic terrorists in ways that are truly laughably restrained when compared to the horrific tortures daily legally inflicted within their own populations, even while our men and women are dying in an effort to bring those same populations, their freedom! Yet the Western Democracies say little or even nothing about, much less declare total indignation at, such punishment as that which has been above described for this British couple.

If I remember correctly, it was forbidden for American military men and women to even bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia during Operation Desert Storm in '91. And heaven forbid, don't even think of allowing alcohol to pass your lips, even though millions of Muslims lauded to the skies the September 11 terrorists, several of whom openly spent their evenings engaging in intoxicated carousing in Miami bars and Lord only knows what else.

Oh, and please, DON'T offer in response the unbelievably naive assertion of such abominable punishments being their "customs." You want to get into various "customs"? Tell you what, let's start with the Nazis, huh?

Just my humble opinion, but one I believe while certainly not supported by everyone, is nevertheless probably widely shared and not just in the western world.

Todd

[Pootersdad]

Well said, Todd. Having spent many years traveling on business in that part of the world, I have seen some things that would horrify most of us.

[Captain Tennille]

Apparently, there is more to this story.

The couple kissed in front of local children... A BIG NO-NO in Islamic culture.

Before you condemn, get to know the whole story.

This is like nudists parading down "Main Street USA" in front of American children. A month in jail is apropos. There are no signs advising or warning said nudists.... you just don't do it, and everyone knows better.

[Manuel]

I have no problems with the laws in other countries. I have been in quite a few places in my lifetime, but you have to know what you are getting into.
If you break a law overseas you just have to face the consequences. There are many wonderfull countries to visit where you can have fun and do your own thing. Just remember that there are a few countries that are not worth visiting.

TM

[Ron]

Todd, I understand you completely. So, the couple kissed on the cheek--horrors of horrors--in front of children???
I guess to stone someone to death or lop off a head if front of a child is ok-- but a peck on the cheek??---No way bro!
True, different cultures have different customs and we should respect them as much as we can but we shouldn't bend over and hand them the Vaseline at the same time!
Bottom line with the middle east is that they in one form or another, have the U.S., Britain and most of the Western world over the barrel so to speak.
On our side, we are sorely lacking in officials in the great brain center of the universe, A.K.A. Wash.. D.C. who have the fortitude or backbone to stand up and quit worrying about offending someone or what is or is not politically correct.
We all know we are merely in a period of appeasement. And, sooner or later , appeasement catches up. Who was it that said all appeasement means is that you are the last one the bear eats? ;-)

[ToddDH]

Captain,

Of course Captain you are indeed correct in your pointing out how such horrific behavior would be so upsetting to the children and their parents of a culture wherein it is not uncommon for those same children to be raised to cheer aircraft flying into skyscrapers, not be bothered by watching innocent folk being beheaded in front of TV cameras and even be trained to adorn themselves in suicide vests intended to blow up fellow countrymen of a sect different from their own.

I concur with you Manuel. We should stay away from such countries and this should include cruise ships with unwary passengers who, while being in all other respects reasonable individuals, may quite inadvertently run afoul of such levels of punishments that are considered, throughout most of the world, as to be unreasonable.

Kind of like the way cruisers are starting to react to lawlessness on several Caribbean islands.

Todd

[Captain Tennille]

quote "culture wherein it is not uncommon for those same children to be raised to cheer aircraft flying into skyscrapers"

Todd> Your nation's children cheer the perpetrators of "collateral damage" on a daily basis. It is no different. Death is not an "oopsie, my bad.. sorry" sort of thing, regardless if it is perpetrated by hardened terrorists or some guy 5 miles up pushing a button. It's the same damn thing.

There are extremists everywhere. I compare the Islamic extremists in the Middle East to Americans who believe a black man should not be President. Not worthy of attention. Period.

Because you think you are immune from or somehow justified in stereotyping "sand n*****s"... doesn't make your point of view right. Your statements are chock-a-block to the brim with ignorant stereotypes and hypocrisy. A few extremists cheering a terrorist attack does not paint a society. I'm sure the majority were horrified, and condemn such acts, as good and proper Muslims should.

If you drive a car, you support their economy. And, if you drop your pants on "progressive, modern" Main Street USA, you will, indeed, be jailed posthaste. Your society is not that much more tolerant. In fact, if two men kiss (or want to marry) in certain parts, they are persecuted in much the same way. Fact: Islamic countries do not have a monopoly on incredible ignorance.

And all this on the day of forgiveness, on top of it all. Shame.

[Lisa]

Captain......I think you should rethink your position on this kissing thing. It was reported to the officials by a woman who was there with her older teenage daughter and she said they were kissing on the mouth and that she was offended. The wait staff and others in the area said it was a kiss on the cheek and not offensive in any way to them. However, the judge in this case believed this one woman over all the other evidence and sentenced these people to one month in prison.

I have no problem with "when in Rome, etc." But I do have a problem with a society who will believe one offended person over the testimony of many others about a minor thing. Kissing someone on the cheek is NOT uncommon in the Middle East. I think some double standards do apply because we in the west are too afraid to make a stand. Political correctness run amok...............it will be the downfall of the USA.

Appeasement led to WW2. Personally, I think if this keeps up, it will end up in WW3. jmho

[ToddDH]

Captain,

Who said my point of view is right? I just said it's my point of view, period. Agree with it or not, that's your choice. Quite obviously you do not. I'm saddened however that in order to make your point, you find it necessary to insinuate that I am some kind of racist. I thought you to be far better educated than that. I would expect one of your abilities to refute my position with fact as opposed to character assassination.

While someone parading down the street in the nude in "anytown" USA may well be arrested, they'd be summoned and sent on their way and in numberous places, they wouldn't even be arrested! In any event, running around naked is a far far cry from giving someone a kiss while fully clothed. Your analogy is patently absurd.

I admit that I'm not in the habit of making apologies for nations and/or peoples that not only condone but practice with impunity some of the most horrific atrocities in the world today, atrocities that are committed far from their own borders and are far worse than anything this country or any western power since the Nazi's have rendered. If people who live under such regimes within those countries and support them, then of course as I am wont to say, "You get what your hand calls for."

But we're examining incidents not concerning inhabitants of countries that support such laws but of visiting foreign nationals who happen to innocently run afoul of a law, many who are not as well educated as you nor as well traveled as others, may not only not understand but of which they have no knowledge. Think about it. Your statement in essence equates with saying one would be a racist were they to have been anti Axis 65 plus years ago and were there people who harbored such feelings back then? Sadly there were but that's not the reason our enemies (and those of your country as well) were despised; rather it was for their abominable cruelty and behavior committed against those within the borders of these other countries and/or possessions..

As an historian, may I suggest you dig deep into modern history when you talk about incidents of "collateral damage" and the absurdly low level of such "damage" in combat situations as compared with wars as recent as thirty years ago.

By the way Captain, I didn't use any crude reference to a racial slur, you did. The fanaticism and beliefs of which I speak can be found in several races and nationalities so possibly you should review that comment.

If you wish to ignore such behavior as "not worthy of attention," then feel free to do so. Just ignore it and it will go away. A whole lot of people did the same thing in the thirties and forties with the Japanese and the Germans. This country even had its own apologists for these purveyors of destruction and horror too. One was called the German-American Bund. Despite the abhorrent beliefs of this group, it nevertheless was not illegal to even be a member until Hitler declared war on the United States as was the similar case with an outfit in Great Britain.

Shame on me for bringing up such a topic on a day of peace? No Captain, shame on the bombers who today snuffed out forty-two innocent lives in Baghdad and who only served to underscore my point.

Todd

[Manuel]

I hate to say this, but things in the Middle East are not going to change Those people hate Westerners, and have for centuries. If you go there and you don't dress like they do and belong to their religion you are NOT welcome there.

If you want to travel, it's better to go to one of the Western democracies.

My DW and I traveled quite a bit in Europe and in Canada and we never had any problems and we enjoyed all those trips. We have kissed by the Eifel Tower and the Trevi Fountain among other place in Europe. It is a lot more pleasant to travel in countries that have freedom.

TM

[Captain Tennille]

Sorry Todd, but if you make comments like that... I WILL (in a sideways manner), imply racism every time. Those comments are racist. Period. And you add to it with yet more racist, ignorant comments.

You paint an entire culture with a huge paintbrush, based on ONE cherry-picked news story, inflamed by a media that has an agenda that is far from truth-seeking these days.

If Muslim countries based their opinion of the USA on a news story of Larry Flynt's exploits, then I would also call them racist and mis-informed as well. (Heck. Maybe they do already. I dunno.)

Also, sorry my nude analogy went over your head. It is valid. The human body is a natural thing. Certain cultures are obsessively anal about addressing this fact. Nudity and kissing are BOTH natural facts of life. It's society (Muslim and American) that has it's collective head stuck up its arse. What's absurd to me is: you can't see that.

I think this entire thread is RACIST, and should be removed.

[ToddDH]

Captain,

Possibly you never have figured out that those who help plan abominable attacks against innocents are of various ethnicities including not only Caucasians but in fact Causasian Americans among other nationalities.

I regret to point out that you are obviously not in sufficient command of the English language to understand that "culture" can mean a reference to a "group" and it doesn't have to be associated with a particular ethnicity or nationality.

I am not a racist, have never been a racist and anyone who knows me knows this. I regret that the only way that you can justify your position is through means of personal insult.

Write what you will, Captain. I shall not again respond until and unless you can rise to a level of discourse that you obviously have yet to achieve.

Todd

[Captain Tennille]

When a thread starts saying "those people"... "that part of the world" etc. etc... It should be removed without delay.

Obviously certain posters cannot command the meaning of "extremist", and how you cannot paint an entire culture, race, religion, country or region based on the acts of some insane few, ONE news report or even a leader's political stance. Islam is every bit as good a religion as YOUR chosen religion. It's the extremists who twist it to their means. Christianity has a similar history of being twisted to serve an end. It still is, as a matter of fact.

Go ahead. Obfuscate the issue. Insult my intelligence all you like. I must say, you're very good at it. It's still racism, whether you like to think it is or not. I know better than most what constitutes racism, having been the victim of both subtle and overt discrimination/racism many times.

quotable quote: "Some of my best friends are racists."
True dat.
And I only found out who they really were when I married who I did.

Racists are a sneaky, elusive bunch of crud these days.... and I despise them completely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dklH9...eature=related

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