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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:33 AM
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Default A couple of questions about the Israeli raid

As regards the Israeli raid on the ships, I have some questions.

If, as the organizers and participants claim, the trip to Gaza was "peaceful" with only the best of intentions, why did they claim in advance that they would run any Israeli blockade?

When the Israeli commandos took control of all the smaller vessels in the flotilla without incident, why didn't the activist's aboard those vessels resist and only do so on the largest vessel in the flotilla?

If the intention of the Israeli commandos was "shoot first and ask questions later," then why didn't they bring all their firepower with them when they repelled from the helicopters (they left most of their own weapons back at their assembly point)? If the military forces were expecting and were prepared for violent resistance and, as the activists claim shot first, then how could highly trained commandos armed at least with automatic pistols, be attacked, stabbed and beaten by "passengers" and have some of their own weapons taken from them and allegedly used against them?

Maybe someone with a bit more experience than just an old retired law enforcement type who just happened to be a police firearms instructor who taught such things as weapons retention in assault situations, could tell me.

Todd
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:45 AM
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With regard to the Israel and Palestine crisis .In my opinion the US should not be involved in any way with regard to the middle east or any other area. People are starving in this country .People are living in boxes on street corners in New York and other major US cities .Its time for the needs of this country to be addressed .
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:53 AM
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Henry, I wouldn't even begin to address such issues and I am only asking some questions about a specific incident that in no way involved this country.

Todd
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Old June 1st, 2010, 09:17 AM
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Todd, I am out of touch with whatever is going on, because we were traveling yesterday. I will get caught up later today.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 09:38 AM
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Yes,I understand your point ,Todd
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Old June 1st, 2010, 09:44 AM
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Absolutely right!! AND if all they were carrying was ''Legit'' why the big fuss? I think the whole world seems to be against Israel when all they want to do is protect their people & borders.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Absolutely right!! AND if all they were carrying was ''Legit'' why the big fuss? I think the whole world seems to be against Israel when all they want to do is protect their people & borders.
Consider the source of this reporting!
When the Israeli forces volunteered to take the "humanitarian supplies" to Gaza, why was that offer turned down? Could there have been more than humanitarian supplies aboard?

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Old June 1st, 2010, 02:22 PM
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My first reaction when hearing this news was that something didn't sound right. I have since seen videos and read reports such as this one here:
ISRAEL FACES NEW INTERNATIONAL CRISIS DUE TO VIOLENCE ABOARD GAZA AID FLOTILLA Joel Rosenberg’s Weblog
that tell me my instincts were right. I pray continually for Israel and those who seek her destruction.

Phyll
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Old June 1st, 2010, 04:48 PM
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Ken,

I doubt that there was anything aboard the vessels that the Israelis would reasonably consider to be contraband, especially in the form of weapons or explosives merely because these people who have suddenly evolved in the media from "activists" to "passengers" (a term that connotes a more, ahem, non confrontational scenario) absolutely wanted a confrontation and went out of their way to get it. The low light night video I've seen thus far taken from off the ship being boarded clearly shows a crowd with clubs and boards going after the commandos as they're repelling from the helicopter.

Although I normally avoid assumptions, my level of training indicates that those people had every intention of creating an international incident. Now, their behavior may have got beyond the control of those "running the show" but nevertheless, you go after an armed man with knives and clubs it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the boarding party would have to result to lethal force.

But of course, to keep everyone satisfied, the above is still at this point, merely an hypothesis. I shall admit, however, that I think when all is said and done and all investigations are completed and the propaganda discarded, it will be pretty close as to what happened and why.

Todd
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Old June 1st, 2010, 05:28 PM
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Angry Same video

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Originally Posted by ToddDH View Post
Ken,

I doubt that there was anything aboard the vessels that the Israelis would reasonably consider to be contraband, especially in the form of weapons or explosives merely because these people who have suddenly evolved in the media from "activists" to "passengers" (a term that connotes a more, ahem, non confrontational scenario) absolutely wanted a confrontation and went out of their way to get it. The low light night video I've seen thus far taken from off the ship being boarded clearly shows a crowd with clubs and boards going after the commandos as they're repelling from the helicopter.

Although I normally avoid assumptions, my level of training indicates that those people had every intention of creating an international incident. Now, their behavior may have got beyond the control of those "running the show" but nevertheless, you go after an armed man with knives and clubs it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the boarding party would have to result to lethal force.

But of course, to keep everyone satisfied, the above is still at this point, merely an hypothesis. I shall admit, however, that I think when all is said and done and all investigations are completed and the propaganda discarded, it will be pretty close as to what happened and why.

Todd
YES..saw the same video of the soldiers being beaten with by peaceful people with iron pipes."When the Israeli forces volunteered to take the "humanitarian supplies" to Gaza, why was that offer turned down? Could there have been more than humanitarian supplies aboard? "

Just remember...Israel is the only true Democracyin the Middle East and we work hand in hand with them for the protection of both countries and peace in the middle east.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 05:58 PM
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I don't understand the "worldwide" condemnation ...it's just like these chat sites, all join in & have a go at someone, they just can't help it, like flock of sheep. I was listening to people rant about this on the radio, they seem to think that the Israelis just want to attack & kill people for no reason...didn't they see the video? I bet they would change their minds if our island was surrounded by people who hated us & wanted to exterminate us.....come to think of it, I seem to recall there was such a time, it was called the Second World war!! More recently the Falklands business. Things have got to be done to protect the nation.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 06:37 PM
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Where were the worldwide protests when Iran was killing its citizens after the election protests?
Oh wait, Israel wasn't involved. People will protest Israel as a knee-jerk reaction.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 07:02 PM
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I guess when the "other guys" get killed, it's irrelevant.

Nine people were shot DEAD defending their ship from an assault. In international waters. I know they were running a blocade, but really? Why not just torpedo all the ships? The Israelis would have seized the ships anyways, beaten soldiers notwithstanding. Past seized ships have not been released.

I guess that's the gyst of the issue. Overkill, as usual. Kids throwing stones? Send in the tanks.
Bulldozing a house?... Don't check first to see if anyone might be inside, and Grandma gets crushed.... Oopsie. It's only a Palestinian. They'll make more.

THIS is a "good" nation???? A "respectable" nation???? Nope. Sorry. Not gonna fly. The Palestinians may be "bad", but Israel is equally "bad". And I expect more from an alleged "democracy" and developed nation.

FYI no weapons (or parts or components) were found. Just a couple of projectile launchers... oops... I meant slingshots. Some people on this thread are making the assumption that Israeli forces just wanted to search the ship and let it go. Not the case. they wanted to SEIZE the ship. Is that self-defense or piracy?
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Old June 1st, 2010, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Tennille View Post
I guess when the "other guys" get killed, it's irrelevant.

Nine people were shot DEAD defending their ship from an assault. In international waters. I know they were running a blocade, but really? Why not just torpedo all the ships? The Israelis would have seized the ships anyways, beaten soldiers notwithstanding. Past seized ships have not been released.

I guess that's the gyst of the issue. Overkill, as usual. Kids throwing stones? Send in the tanks.
Bulldozing a house?... Don't check first to see if anyone might be inside, and Grandma gets crushed.... Oopsie. It's only a Palestinian. They'll make more.

THIS is a "good" nation???? A "respectable" nation???? Nope. Sorry. Not gonna fly. The Palestinians may be "bad", but Israel is equally "bad". And I expect more from an alleged "democracy" and developed nation.

FYI no weapons (or parts or components) were found. Just a couple of projectile launchers... oops... I meant slingshots.
Thank goodness the good ol' USA is a peaceful nation.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:09 PM
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Captain,

I guess since all reports I've heard and read state that an Israeli trooper was stabbed before being thrown over the side to hit ten decks down, those must have been sooome kinda' slingshots!

Todd
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyllbo View Post
My first reaction when hearing this news was that something didn't sound right. I have since seen videos and read reports such as this one here:
ISRAEL FACES NEW INTERNATIONAL CRISIS DUE TO VIOLENCE ABOARD GAZA AID FLOTILLA Joel Rosenberg’s Weblog
that tell me my instincts were right. I pray continually for Israel and those who seek her destruction.

Phyll
Phyll, I agree with you, after trying to get the facts in this situation. We all should be praying.

If Israel goes, so do we, and many other countries.
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Old June 1st, 2010, 08:42 PM
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Israel will never die
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Old June 1st, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Israel will never die
I would not want Israel to die.

What I would like is to live in a world without wars. I pray for peace everyday.

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Old June 1st, 2010, 11:02 PM
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It's interesting the banner ads this thread attracts...

"Ballistic Fibers"?
"Firearms Training Institute"?

Sheesh.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 12:14 AM
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I don't think this thread will go too far as it's going to turn political pretty quickly--I'll just say this re/ war-- since the dawn of time there has been war and always will be. Those who live in a make believe world of everyone walking hand and hand down the flower strewn path live in a fantasy world. I don't know that praying for peace helps or not.
I've surely said my share of prayers when I thought I wouldn't come out of some sticky situations-- but by the same token to back up my prayers I kept dishing out everything I possibly could in the way of firepower--what saved me--the prayers or the fact that the firepower we dished out was more overwhelming and more accurate than the ones who were trying their best to kill us-- or maybe a combination of both-- and maybe some plain old luck thrown in.
It's hard to watch a hand held phone video clip such as has been and is being shown about this incident re / Israel and the ship and see what really goes on in a situation like that because the person doing the filming is showing what they want you to see. When it's over, you can sit back, watch the video and be an armchair quarterback from now on and you won't have an inkling of what it's like to be in the middle of a life or death melee where everything goes all to hell in a second and decisions have to be made in an instant--sometimes right--sometimes wrong.
If you haven't walked the walk in a pair of boots, don't be so quick to pass judgment. When your sitting in front of a big screen and watching the video, you're pretty safe--when you're there live and in person, you'll find it's a different ballgame all together.If you've been there and done that you know. If you've not, there's no way you'll ever know.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 01:26 AM
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 07:39 AM
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Default World without wars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
I would not want Israel to die.

What I would like is to live in a world without wars. I pray for peace everyday.

TM
That is a utopia that will never occur .However ,there is no need for the USA to spend trillions of dollars by having military personnel in Iraq ,Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world .

To those who disagree with me I ask this ,lets say that Khadafy or any other world leader feels that Obama or any President is treating americans unfairly and decides to send his nations troops to our country would you say that is okay ?

America needs to get rid of poverty ,gangs ,horrific crime .Its not our job to police the world
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
That is a utopia that will never occur .However ,there is no need for the USA to spend trillions of dollars by having military personnel in Iraq ,Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world .

To those who disagree with me I ask this ,lets say that Khadafy or any other world leader feels that Obama or any President is treating americans unfairly and decides to send his nations troops to our country would you say that is okay ?

America needs to get rid of poverty ,gangs ,horrific crime .Its not our job to police the world
Oh I would love this too. My hubby has spent more time in the Middle East than at home, but I like you and would not want to hear of your suffering. The very same guys that my hubby has been dealing with wanted so much to take out New York and those around it. These people want us gone, and they will try anywhere they can. I think you might agree that it is best done in their home land than ours.

In order to protect us here, the borders will need to be guarded, but that isn't working, so what do we do. I guess we could stand by and let things just happen, or we can do what we are doing, because they are no voters in Iraq.

The key to getting rid of poverty is education, but that is also close to failing. We give a man a fish, instead of teaching him to fish, and it's the same thing all over again.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 12:20 PM
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Thanks.. but do you seriously want to believe that the general public wants to read 'the truth".. I don't think so, sorry to say..
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 01:49 PM
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Marc> Since when were different perspectives not allowed on CM???

I guess only the popular viewpoint is permitted here.

Why should I be the only one who needs to live in the region??? There's lots of other folks here who ALSO speak without not having a clue about what they are talking about... what about them? Shouldn't THEY also live in the area before they open their big yaps too???

Because they're "right" and I'm "wrong"? That has yet to be proven. All we have to date are innuendo and heresay, compounded by media spin. And I propose that you, kind sir, are not nearly qualified to judge this issue.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 02:33 PM
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Oh I would love this too. My hubby has spent more time in the Middle East than at home, but I like you and would not want to hear of your suffering. The very same guys that my hubby has been dealing with wanted so much to take out New York and those around it. These people want us gone, and they will try anywhere they can. I think you might agree that it is best done in their home land than ours.

In order to protect us here, the borders will need to be guarded, but that isn't working, so what do we do. I guess we could stand by and let things just happen, or we can do what we are doing, because they are no voters in Iraq.

The key to getting rid of poverty is education, but that is also close to failing. We give a man a fish, instead of teaching him to fish, and it's the same thing all over again.

The US was not attacked by a foreign government since 1941 .If Americans discuss "taking out " Afghanistan or Iraq does that mean there is justification for a foreign power to attack us ? I reiterate or iterate ,we have no business sending troops into Afghanistan or Iraq .The only thing this accomplishes is killing american youth and having companies such as Halliburton making millions of dollars.

In 1971 I was working with recently returned Vietnam veterans .My job was to set them up in training programs to get jobs.The majority had one basic skill ,building bombs .
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 02:55 PM
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My question is how would any country (including the U.S. and Canada) react to a group whose sole stated goal is the annhilation of your country?

Don't forget the U.S. naval blockade of Cuba, which it's widely acknowledged came within a whisker of triggering an all out war.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 03:09 PM
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In 1971 I was working with recently returned Vietnam veterans .My job was to set them up in training programs to get jobs.The majority had one basic skill ,building bombs .
I was one of those veterans and I want to tell you that we also knew how to dig foxholes.

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Old June 2nd, 2010, 04:42 PM
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My question is how would any country (including the U.S. and Canada) react to a group whose sole stated goal is the annhilation of your country?

Don't forget the U.S. naval blockade of Cuba, which it's widely acknowledged came within a whisker of triggering an all out war.

Thank you Kuki...Israel is a c ountry the size of New Jersey and it's enemies won't be happy until it's disappeared off the face of the earth. Many in the modern world have much to thank for it's medical and technical advancements...many on this board are much more knowlegable and can list them off the top of their head.. As a nation we have never, ever been surrounded by our enemies...Israel has and fight them off... all the while providing the best education and medical care in the Middle East..

This cruise board should not and I'm trying to stay away from this hot subject become an anti-Israel board until the true story is known..and that includes reading articles of what actually happened.
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