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  #31 (permalink)  
Old January 10th, 2011, 11:50 AM
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Kuki..no doubt..all sides may use this isolated incident as cover to cool their irresponsible behavior..but i'm betting the truce will last less then 3 news cycle days, thus my qoute a few postings ago about hindsight.....

I'm boycotting all of the cable news outlets coverage of this story and relying on print journalism, because print (due to liable laws) should be less inflammatory
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Old January 10th, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Kuki..your:neutral: dual citizen status :neutral: provides a unique perspective and I hope that our CM's who live outside of the US (Europe etc) post to keep us abreast on how the rest of the world sees our current situation to provide additional perspective

Venice - from a UK perspective - we can't understand why the gun laws are not tightened. I know the US has a written constitution etc. ; we know of the NRA; - OK keep the guns but charge a premium for the bullets.

We are very saddened but the more I read about the young man, I am convinced he has issues. Having said that, I read he has invoked his right to silence which makes me think he is not quite the 'nut' as is portrayed.

Many of us have serious issues with our politicians but we would never think of picking up a gun ; I just bombard them with correspondence.

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Old January 10th, 2011, 01:08 PM
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This has not been reported nationally but it did make one NYC newspaper .The killer is a supporter and possibly a member of the American Nazi Party .
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Old January 10th, 2011, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by venice View Post
Kuki..no doubt..all sides may use this isolated incident as cover to cool their irresponsible behavior..but i'm betting the truce will last less then 3 news cycle days, thus my qoute a few postings ago about hindsight.....

I'm boycotting all of the cable news outlets coverage of this story and relying on print journalism, because print (due to liable laws) should be less inflammatory
A friend of mine who is a respected journalist in California wrote in his column yesterday that the shooter should receive the death penalty .
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Old January 10th, 2011, 07:14 PM
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Has anyone seen or heard of anything which shows that the nut was swayed by the Tea Party, or Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh? Has anyone seen or heard anything which shows that he even had knowledge of the now infamous target map of candidates? No, they haven't. The balloon was floated on Saturday afternoon before the ambulances had even left the crime scene, and immediately a troubling number of people bought into it all the way because they wanted to believe it since it fit their own prejudices.

So now we know that the nut had been showing up at Gabbie's public appearances since 2007 - when the Tea Party was still just a reference to Boston Harbor and Sarah Palin was not known outside of Alaska. He had an altar in his backyard with a skull sitting in a bowl of dried-out oranges, and people who knew him said he was a lunatic. People in college classes with him feared him

And because a tragic event occurs, which was the sole act of a mad man, we Americans sit here at this moment with people hoping to use the tragic event to change public policy for an entire nation of 300 million people. To silence debate. To silence opposition. It is a carpe diem moment for too many, who lust for power at any cost, even to use the deaths and injuries of their peers and colleagues to further their agendas.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 07:56 PM
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David.. I think you and way too many people are being drawn in to the "they said"/"we said" .

It was a mad man, and in a sense it matters not what triggered him to act now! But I think it would be naive to think the "tone" that's existed in the U.S. since the Presidential campaign and election hasn't had an affect on all the "nut jobs" and mad men.

Even discussion on the possibilities brings motions to a boil.

I know, I certainly don't expect, or want to see anyone losing the right to speak and oppose other's views. The problem can be how those opposing views are expressed.

It's not all that different from domestic differences. You can argue with a spouse, but when you take that arguement to vitriolic and biting statements, and attempt to put down the person, those situations deteriorate to the point that they aren't reconcilable very quickly.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 08:06 PM
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Has anyone seen or heard of anything which shows that the nut was swayed by the Tea Party, or Sarah Palin, or Rush Limbaugh? Has anyone seen or heard anything which shows that he even had knowledge of the now infamous target map of candidates? No, they haven't. The balloon was floated on Saturday afternoon before the ambulances had even left the crime scene, and immediately a troubling number of people bought into it all the way because they wanted to believe it since it fit their own prejudices.

So now we know that the nut had been showing up at Gabbie's public appearances since 2007 - when the Tea Party was still just a reference to Boston Harbor and Sarah Palin was not known outside of Alaska. He had an altar in his backyard with a skull sitting in a bowl of dried-out oranges, and people who knew him said he was a lunatic. People in college classes with him feared him

And because a tragic event occurs, which was the sole act of a mad man, we Americans sit here at this moment with people hoping to use the tragic event to change public policy for an entire nation of 300 million people. To silence debate. To silence opposition. It is a carpe diem moment for too many, who lust for power at any cost, even to use the deaths and injuries of their peers and colleagues to further their agendas.
Dave,

You have hit the nail on the head. This tragedy was carried out by a pure evil person who is not a rational human being. He may very well not even have a political affiliation. I couldn't care less, if he was left wing or right wing or undecided; he is nothing more than an evil nut case.

It is true that the so-called mainstream media has made the usual attempts to link this monster to Sarah Palin and other Tea Party members. One can't help but note that there has been no factual connection whatsoever, with any Tea Party group. Although, some just can't resist any opportunity to do so for political reasons.

Now the fact is that there are nut cases like this monster who are involved in groups from the left and the right. So far, no one from the Tea Party has ever been involved with any such atrocities, but given the fact that there are millions of members of the Tea Party some day no doubt, those on the left will get there wish.

I was personally sickened by the political rhetoric by the sheriff in Tucson, in his rant about condemning others even before anything was known about this monster. At such a tragic event there was absolutely no place for this kind of rhetoric.

My prayers and thoughts are with all those who were affected by this tragedy.

Just my humble opinion.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old January 10th, 2011, 08:26 PM
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But I think it would be naive to think the "tone" that's existed in the U.S. since the Presidential campaign and election hasn't had an affect on all the "nut jobs" and mad men.
And I think it is naive to think as you do, because to agree with your premise I'd have to use flawed logic. You cannot not use rational thought to assess irrational people. No matter the "tone", rational people will not do irrational things in response to said "tone".

Last year the wife of a friend and former employee of mine was murdered at the University Of Alabama - Huntsville. She was one of the professors shot by Amy Bishop. So am I to assume that if my friend's wife was a politician, Amy Bishop's motives were due to the 'tone'? After all, Amy Bishop appears to be a "nut job".
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Old January 10th, 2011, 08:52 PM
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Supposedly his attorneys are pursuing an insanity defense . This leads to the age old question re the definition of insanity .Anyone who commits a murder cannot be totally sane . Should the insanity defense be outlawed ?

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Old January 10th, 2011, 10:09 PM
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Saturday morning a little girl lost her life at the hands of an evil man. I know very well what her mother is feeling tonight.

A man threw himself on top of his wife of 50 something years, in order to save her life. She was shot in the legs, but will live.

A man who happened to be a judge lost his life. By all accounts he was a wonderful man who loved his state and his country.

A congress woman was hit, and left for dead.

This is what this thread should be about. Not contributing to the policial garbage that has continued since the election.

I am so ashamed, disappointed and sick at my stomach, that instead of a thread offering prayers, this is what is so important to discuss.

Two years ago, tonight I saw my baby for the last time. He was also gunned down for no reason. I would think that something else could be discussed. But then again, maybe not. I guess you never know until now.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old January 10th, 2011, 10:15 PM
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56 years ago my best friend who was 10 years old was murdered by 2 pre-teens . They never spent a day in prison because of politics . The ONLY way to end violence once is to elimininate guns . Parents who buy their children guns or teach them how to shoot guns or encourage them to kill defensive animals for sport are the cause ,in my opinion of the majority of violence in our nation today .
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Old January 10th, 2011, 10:38 PM
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And now we see this thread devolving into a broad-based political rant on gun control, politics, whatever, just as I thought it would. This is why a thread like this has no business being posted on a cruise forum. I don't allow it on my website, and for obvious reasons.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
And now we see this thread devolving into a broad-based political rant on gun control, politics, whatever, just as I thought it would
It "devolved" long before that before the gun control comment. Sad, because the only thing really political about it was that it occurred at a political event. I thought the thread was more about removing the politics and thinking about the atmosphere, that adds the final stressers to the lunatic finge psyche, that makes them take that last step into murder.

It does seem to speak to the nature of how things are going in this country though. There's a widening abyss between "the sides", and not many people looking to get along to find solutions. Everyone is selling fear of "the other side". It's worriesome to me because Empires have fallen for the same reasons.
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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:27 PM
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I just deleted my own post--didn't want to become " political" and step on toes. Keep up the great discussions folks !! I know some will have it all figured out straight away !!
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Old January 11th, 2011, 12:35 AM
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Luanne...

No doubt you're suffering on such a horrific anniversary. My thoughts are with you.

It's ridiculous how many totally unneccesary murders occur daily. Here in Pheonix, each night as I watch the local news I'm almost numbed, and definitely dazed at the almost assuredly nightly news of another murder.

It's really difficult for me to get my head around it, because at home a murder is really a very rare occurance. And I have a hard time understanding what the difference is, that makes it so common here and so uncommon back at home in Canada.

This particular situation is different because even here mass murders are rare. So, as hard as it is to understand why one human being would kill another, it's much more difficult to understand how a person can simply walk into a parking lot and start shooting, randomly killing people.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 12:38 AM
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We all need to get along. But I have to point out that handguns are only used to kill people.

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Old January 11th, 2011, 09:10 AM
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I think this "political climate" you keep refering to, Kuki, is more accurately described as an "economic meltdown." This isn't just about politics, although I feel we should have been able to to do alot more about jobs and the housing crisis by now, it is about our economy.

As to whether this guy was incited by Sarah Palin, I think it's a false premise. This guy does not follow the right wing profile (as far as I know, I am out to sea and have limited news) - but I believe he was out of a job and nearly homeless.

He would tend to be the more liberal side of the "class warfare" war.

In any case - he did not leave any notes or other signs that he was motivated by right wing politicians - and I honestly think it is irresponsible to try to ascribe blame upon someone who does not deserve it. Its a very Un-American thing to do.

I have heard that the left-stream media has been trying to do exactly that - but don't they always?
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Old January 11th, 2011, 10:29 AM
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I have heard that the left-stream media has been trying to do exactly that - but don't they always?[/QUOTE]


That is your opinion and in a free society you are entitles to your opinion ,however that does not mean that you are right .

Would you agree ?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old January 11th, 2011, 10:31 AM
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Paul... Of course you're right that the economic meltdown had a dramatic negative affect on most people.

But I do think other issues complicated it even further. Prior to the Presidential election the rhetoric got pretty nasty. After the election, there was no period of accepting the results of the election, and time period of giving the people elected by the people an opportunity to govern.

The rhetoric continued, and grew more bitter, right through to the Nov. elections. Once again, no acceptance of the results of the people's votes; just right back at the vitrioloc rhetoric.

I think that left people with great fear, and confusion, with many believing there's no way out of it, and no hope for improvement to their lives by any governing body. And, I think that could be "the stresser" that drives some people over the edge.

Granted, they have to be near that edge mentally to cross over it. But as a country I think there's need for concern.

Blaming anyone (or either side) for the specific occurance is absurd. Trying to understand how to make certain the atmosphere doesn't put the next person over the edge is imperative I think.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuki;134at 1661

But I do think other issues complicated it even further. Prior to the Presidential election the rhetoric got pretty nasty. After the election, there was no period of accepting the results of the election, and time period of giving the people elected by the people an opportunity to govern.

.
That is something that I agree with 100%

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Old January 11th, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Any time some one is killed it is a tradegy. Just look at this guys picture and you can tell something is very wrong with him. I do think it is sad that people are trying to place blame, nothing anyone said or a new gun law would change this person. I think one major problem in the US is to many reporters, that like to express there opinion rather than report the news. Mike
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Old January 11th, 2011, 02:36 PM
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I agree the political climate in the U.S. has become increasingly "amped up" as Kuki said...

However, I think the only logical conclusion in this scenario is to conclude that a mentally ill, delusional person assassinated and injured a lot of people because he was not being properly cared for to prevent him from harming these people.

Let's face it, a rational person in their right mind in our society would not have committed such a heinous act resulting in the murder of people in these circumstances, least of all an innocent 9 year old child.

I do think there should be an investigation and possible prosecution of those who did not do their jobs to insure he was cared for appropriately to protect society, and those who allowed him to have access to the weapons he used to commit this terrible crime.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 05:07 PM
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You mean like invading Iraq

It's really not a matter of WHO to blame...
As said so eloquently in song....

YouTube - Blame Canada by Robin Williams @ Academy Award 2000
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Old January 11th, 2011, 10:34 PM
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What happened in Tucson to Congresswoman Giffords, along with the others who were wounded and killed was a horrific thing. As with other shootings, Columbine, Virginia Tech, it was the work of a loner who didn't fit into society. I think that it is up to parents and the schools to pay attention to their children and students if they are experiencing mental and social problems. People who are in congress can't have twenty-four hour protection. What they have now is a "wake up call" to be more careful in situations where they are dealing with their contituents. My prayers go out to the families of the victoms of this shooting in Tucson.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 03:54 AM
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I don't for a nanosecond believe that the current political acrimony had anything whatsoever to do with this unconscionable act of violence. Maybe the loss of my beloved Fran had something to do with it, but I found tears coursing down my cheek upon learning of this shooting.

That being said, national political acrimony has risen to heights I've not personally seen in my 63 years. Yes, it has been as bad as today during many segments of our country's history and there is more than ample evidence to validate my observation. But I find such behavior so counterproductive and in my case I can prove it is unnecessary.

When I ran for public office in New York, I wasn't given a snowball's chance in hell of even, as they say, "... showing up at the polls." I was running on the Republican ticket and not only was I an unknown, I also had a Conservative opponent as well as a Democratic one and my predecessor had barely won election over the same Democratic opponent I was facing and he didn't even have a Conservative opponent which of course would only take votes away from him. Being a "newbie" I had all of the "experts" advising me. Suffice it to say, in a whole lot of instances I didn't take their advice to the point that I was told I was unelectable. The politics in that area were at the time so acrimonious that I was told I would be dragged through the mud until I cried "Uncle" and was advised not to run and that I would forever be sorry I did just because of the nastiness of the politics. And yes, I was dragged through the mud. The only thing I would not tolerate was the impugning of my personal integrity or an attack on my family, both tactis then often employed. One individual (who was not a candidate) did just that and for that reason and that reason alone, I excoriated him in public and he was a big time county politico.

At no time either during the race or after did I ever publicly denigrate in any way shape or form either of my opponents nor even their stances, even during our debates. The campaign I personally conducted was completely positive simply because I considered the usual way of politics in that community to be nothing more than trash. What I did was to tell the people what I would do if elected and if they didn't agree with me, then vote for one of the other two candidates, but at least get out and vote. My handlers were aghast and the opposition was thrilled beyond belief.....until election night, that is.

I won by the biggest margin in the history of the Ward in which I was running and not only that, I handily beat both of my opponents combined.

There is no reason on God's green Earth that all political races couldn't be run on the same level. While politics is itself adversarial, it can be conducted with civility. It's my understanding at least, that the Congresswoman who was shot was the type of person to whom I'm alluding.

And I disagree with Dave whom I greatly admire as even though I've been guilty of such acrimony and sarcasm on these boards, I was ashamed only because I lost control of my own emotions. There is, always has been and always will be no reason why those of differing opinions can't share those opinions in a civil manner without rancor or sarcasm. I a while back following a particularly strident reply, renewed my own pledge to myself that I shall not in the future, ever again fall into that cesspool and am truly ashamed that I have done so in the past.

I think that's all any of us have to do and if we can, there really isn't any subject upon which we can't have discourse on an adult level, even if many of our elected officials can't seem to be able to do that.

Luanne said it best. This was an unspeakable tragedy in some ways of epic proportions. Let us all keep that uppermost in our minds and continue to pray for the recovery of the wounded and for the repose of the souls of those killed.

Todd

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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:21 AM
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Todd..if a remake of the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" were to be made today, to be realistic it would be assigned an "R" rating and I would retitle it "Mr Smith Goes To Washington But Only for 1 Term" because he actually believed his job was to represent the needs of his local constituents even if it means going against his national party's orders!!!

btw..were you living in the Hudson Valley when you ran for office ?
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Old January 12th, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Everyone is saying this guy is insane .That will keep him out of prison .I personally believe he was very calculating and knew exactly what he was doing .He was targeting Rep.Giffords since her pro-Israel speech in October 2010.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Everyone is saying this guy is insane .That will keep him out of prison .I personally believe he was very calculating and knew exactly what he was doing .He was targeting Rep.Giffords since her pro-Israel speech in October 2010.
Henry,

It will not keep him out of jail in Arizona. Arizona does not have a "Not Guilty by reason of Insanity". The ruling would be "Guilty but Insane". This means he would be remanded to a mental hospital and when declared "sane" would serve the remainder of the sentence in prison.

Take care,
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Old January 12th, 2011, 11:42 AM
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I was not aware of that ,Mike .Thank you
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Old January 12th, 2011, 11:56 AM
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to help keep this thread on topic..Kuki's original post was asking whether this was a trouble young man acting in isolation (if I may paraphrase)..or were there outside influences impacting his actions ?
in my first response to Kuki's post I indicated we should be patient and let the police do their job..after a week we have now pretty much concluded that this was a trouble young man with his own agenda..but it also illustrates how outside interests have tried to capitalize on the tragic event to forward their own agenda's to influence the court of public opinion.it did not help that this tragic event occurred in a congressional district that is a battleground for many polarizing issues..wonder what we have learned from this..hopefully it will be not to jump to conclusions..sadly , I have little confidence that it will
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