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  #61 (permalink)  
Old January 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM
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I started this thread because as human beings, after tragic events, we always look for a reasonable explanation for unreasonable acts. It's done to try and understand how it could be possibly happen, and to try and hope that by understanding it, we can attempt to do our best to ensure it doesn't happen again... even if there's little hope it won't.

There is and was never any doubt in my mind that the individual was mentally unstable. That would be a prerequisite for any such act.

Even though it was an act of a madman, it does have some relation to politics, because he chose to assasinate a congresswoman; the local representative of the government in his area. He didn't just open fire in a random parking lot.

I've pointed out several times that I never believed it was "the fault" of any specific person, party or idelogical point of view. But, because of the choice of his original target, it had to have been affected by the general political climate.

I don't think any one point of political view "told" him who to attack. That was just a sick mind directing him. However, I do think it can be helpful to have a discussion of the environment that can create targets for those who are mentally unstable.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 12:30 PM
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I have read numerous articles from publications indicating that he was planning to assassinate a jewish government official and in October 2010 began to target Rep.Giffords ,especially after her pro-Israel speech .
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Old January 12th, 2011, 06:31 PM
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I think it would be naive to think the "tone" that's existed in the U.S. since the Presidential campaign and election hasn't had an affect on all the "nut jobs" and mad men.

I know, I certainly don't expect, or want to see anyone losing the right to speak and oppose other's views. The problem can be how those opposing views are expressed.
Kuki,

Maybe you missed it but there was far more of the "tone" that you mentioned throughout George Bush's (43) presidency than there has been during the current administration. Referring to Bush as a Nazi and our top general in Afghanistan as "general betray us" in the left wing radical blog move-on, was the order of the day.

No one yet, has lost the right to speak or express opinions, but sadly there is a move afoot to do just that by trying to impose a government labeled "fairness doctrine" which is solely designed to squelch conservative view points on talk radio and FOX news.

As others have said not leaping to conclusions and ending the practice of ginning up stories to assess blame, as many in the mainstream media have done along with many politicians, is the best way to insure civil discussion.

What happened in Tucson is a tragic story and the crime was committed by a very evil person and had nothing to do with any other person or group. All of our thoughts and prayers belong to the victims.

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  #64 (permalink)  
Old January 12th, 2011, 07:58 PM
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Kuki,

Maybe you missed it but there was far more of the "tone" that you mentioned throughout George Bush's (43) presidency than there has been during the current administration. Referring to Bush as a Nazi and our top general in Afghanistan as "general betray us" in the left wing radical blog move-on, was the order of the day.

No one yet, has lost the right to speak or express opinions, but sadly there is a move afoot to do just that by trying to impose a government labeled "fairness doctrine" which is solely designed to squelch conservative view points on talk radio and FOX news.

As others have said not leaping to conclusions and ending the practice of ginning up stories to assess blame, as many in the mainstream media have done along with many politicians, is the best way to insure civil discussion.

What happened in Tucson is a tragic story and the crime was committed by a very evil person and had nothing to do with any other person or group. All of our thoughts and prayers belong to the victims.

Debra
Debra... you don't want to blame anyone, but then you go into a list of what "the left" has done

The habit of labelling and comparing everyone adversaries to Hitler has worked on both sides of all the disputes I've seen. It's despicable, because it only serves to diminish the horrors perprated by Hitler himself; orchastrating the murder of millions of people and attempting to annhialate an enter people.

It's exactly that sort of loose lipped rhetoric that creates the atmosphere I speak of.

Surely everyone should be able to state their opinion, and state their cases for the policies they believe are correct, without the name calling, labelling, vitriol. If people can't make a legitimate arguement without putting down the people and positions they're debating, then they're taking the easy way out. And that's the thought I've been stating from the beginning of this thread.
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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:12 PM
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The American way is to blame someone for our problems instead of working to fix them.

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Old January 12th, 2011, 08:28 PM
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The following appeared in todays edition of the NJJN on line:
And sure enough, the fact of Giffords’ Jewishness puts the “Jewish question” in the middle of a larger national drama. Alleged gunman Jared Loughner reportedly posted Hitler’s Mein Kampf as a “favorite book” on a social media site. A U.S. Department of Homeland Security memorandum cites Loughner’s interest in a white supremacist group called American Renaissance, which is both anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.
Was Loughner attracted to Hitler as a nationalist hero or as an anti-Semitic icon? Did he care that Giffords was Jewish, or that one of those killed, Giffords staffer Gabe Zimmerman, was Jewish?
And sure enough, the fact of Giffords’ Jewishness puts the “Jewish question” in the middle of a larger national drama. Alleged gunman Jared Loughner reportedly posted Hitler’s Mein Kampf as a “favorite book” on a social media site. A U.S. Department of Homeland Security memorandum cites Loughner’s interest in a white supremacist group called American Renaissance, which is both anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.
Was Loughner attracted to Hitler as a nationalist hero or as an anti-Semitic icon? Did he care that Giffords was Jewish, or that one of those killed, Giffords staffer Gabe Zimmerman, was Jewish?
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Old January 12th, 2011, 09:57 PM
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I've have been doing alot of research on Lee Atwater in respect to how we have gotten to this level of political discourse in our Country..it just didn't happen overnight
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Old January 12th, 2011, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by venice View Post
I've have been doing alot of research on Lee Atwater in respect to how we have gotten to this level of political discourse in our Country..it just didn't happen overnight

You are right! It did not happen overnight. Hatred and racism have allways existed here.

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Old January 13th, 2011, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
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The American way is to blame someone for our problems instead of working to fix them.

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Manuel - Unfortunately, it is just not the American way.

A
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old January 13th, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venice View Post
I've have been doing alot of research on Lee Atwater in respect to how we have gotten to this level of political discourse in our Country..it just didn't happen overnight
Venice... a big part of the difference is you only used to see a few minutes of it on the nightly news, or read it in the morning newspaper.

These days, it's part of the 24/7 news cycle with cable news stations, and the internet. It's getting fed to people 24 hrs. a day, and it's not just the news being reported. They are filling in all the time with "analysis and commentary", and the more controversial they make it, the higher ratings they think they can get. This gives even the most fringe elements publicity and exposure, and there's so much "junk" out there the public is left trying to figure out what's true and what's new out of all "the junk".
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Old January 13th, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Kuki..the phrase "plausible deniability" keeps popping into my mind when it comes to the political discourse that we have today..I suspect the general public seeks out media outlets that most closely aligns with their beliefs, fears, political agenda etc. and receive their information in 'snippets' , soundbites , texts, websites etc..I grew up in rural small town upstate New York, where we held town hall meetings to resolve differences and found common ground thru a committment to make things work..if everyone was alittle uncomfortable about the outcome then we knew we had a workable solution

I also believe that the loudest proponents of this vile dialogue are also the biggest hypocrites (i.e. those that preach family values lead a secret immoral lifestyle that eventually becomes exposed) and the greatest warhawks have never served a day in the active military for our Country or have been in a war zone

I was on the Carnival Liberty during the week of October 23rd on the full charter Jazz Cruise..there were 3200 jazz fans of all colors, religions, political orientations and regions of the country..because we had the big screen tv on the Lido deck we stayed current on all the events and had many debates about the political situation (we played a great game where one would have to advocate the opposite position of which we believe..i.e I had to defend Michael Steele, the current RNC chairman) where we agreed to disagree but we respected each other's position and belief, but we were all united for our great love of smooth jazz..maybe Congress should charter a cruise ship, put leaders from both sides of the aisle on it for a week and cut them off from the media and tell them the ship can't come back until they have an agreement on some of the major issues of the day
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Old January 13th, 2011, 07:12 PM
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We all need to get along. But I have to point out that handguns are only used to kill people.

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I wish there was one more handgun there in the hands of a responsible citizen when this went down.

My heart is heavy for all the loss. Seeing people willing to give up their rights (or those of their countrymen) so easily in the pursuit of the perception of safety is disappointing as well.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Actually, the best defensive firearm is a 12 Ga. High Velocity shotgun. But then if that was allowed to be carried concealed, we'd all look like perverts in trench coats. ;-)
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:49 AM
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I wish there was one more handgun there in the hands of a responsible citizen when this went down.

.
No! Not another gun.

There should have been no gun at all.

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Old January 14th, 2011, 04:01 AM
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No! Not another gun.

There should have been no gun at all.

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Manuel

My thoughts exactly - naive Brit here - ban the guns; ban the bomb was a slogan from the 1960s - ban the guns - that would be a fitting legacy for Christina Taylor Green.

BTW - sadly I don't expect the ban - money talks!

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Old January 14th, 2011, 04:36 AM
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Sorry - I meant to say fitting memorial to all the victims.

Maybe Arizona could lead the way.

Annie
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:42 AM
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Manuel

My thoughts exactly - naive Brit here - ban the guns; ban the bomb was a slogan from the 1960s - ban the guns - that would be a fitting legacy for Christina Taylor Green.

BTW - sadly I don't expect the ban - money talks!

Annie
Can you imagine a society without guns ? There are many countries in this world that have a total ban on guns and have a crime free society .
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old January 14th, 2011, 09:42 AM
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There are many countries in this world that have a total ban on guns and have a crime free society .
Could you name the first dozen?
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Old January 14th, 2011, 11:00 AM
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Could you name the first dozen?
Can you name the first two.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 11:16 AM
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Japan has very, very tight regulationss; possibly Singapore?

We could make very strict regulations of handguns a global goal for 2011.

I know I am idealistic and naiive.

Annie
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Old January 14th, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
Can you imagine a society without guns ? There are many countries in this world that have a total ban on guns and have a crime free society .
Yes there are a number of countries that ban handguns. Russia, England, Australia, Singapore, South Korea....etc.

However: These countries are FAR from crime free. I have four cousins who are law enforcement officers in Birmingham and Leicester, England and they will attest that incidents of violent crime are a daily part of life.

Take care,
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old January 14th, 2011, 11:52 AM
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Mike... for sure their are countries that ban handguns. It was the assertion that they are "crime free societies" that had me chuckling.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 11:54 AM
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The Vatican

I think the problem stems from the murders/crimes where illegal guns are involved

that's no small consolation for the mothers/families of the victims of shootings

i still for the life of me cannot figure out why people bring guns to political rallys and openly display them citing constitutional rights
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:08 PM
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Could you name the first dozen?
Lapland

Monaco

Transylvania
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Old January 14th, 2011, 12:13 PM
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The Vatican

I think the problem stems from the murders/crimes where illegal guns are involved

that's no small consolation for the mothers/families of the victims of shootings

i still for the life of me cannot figure out why people bring guns to political rallys and openly display them citing constitutional rights
Venice, I for the life of me cannot figure out why anyone needs a gun. I know I am naiive.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 07:34 PM
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Venice, I for the life of me cannot figure out why anyone needs a gun. I know I am naiive.
Self Defense? If banning crime worked I'd be all for it. Of course if there is a gun ban I'm sure the criminals will all turn their guns in.

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Idealistic perhaps.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:34 PM
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How about a mandatory 20 year prison sentence for anyone caught in possession of an illegal gun .
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:43 PM
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How about a mandatory 20 year prison sentence for anyone caught in possession of an illegal gun .
Sounds good to me. Put them in jail Arizona style.

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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:48 PM
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In my opinion when a person is serving jail time it should be at hard labor if the person is convicted for a crime of violence . A prison should not be a country club .
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Old January 14th, 2011, 10:50 PM
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Debra... you don't want to blame anyone, but then you go into a list of what "the left" has done

Kuki
I was just pointing out the incorrect impression that your post left, that all this name calling only affected Obama.
While I agree that some of the name calling and fabricated stories have come from the right, no one can deny that most of these destructive policies, including race and class warfare, have come from the left.

Today, I heard Pelosi refer to the mass murders in Tucson as a "terrible accident". That ridicules statement is a classic example of twisting the facts and only serves to incite the climate that we now have in this country. My opinion is that when someone makes up stories or news organizations pander to a political agenda or simply to attack someone such as Sarah Palin, that they should be called out.

This horrible event is not the fault of a failing of our society, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh or FOX News, but rather the fault lies with one deranged evil person.

Debra
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