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-   -   All Four Hostages Are Dead (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/chit-chat-cruisers/380664-all-four-hostages-dead.html)

ToddDH February 22nd, 2011 11:27 AM

All Four Hostages Are Dead
 
According to the AP, all four American hostages on the yacht are dead. The report stated that the Navy was in negotiations for their release when they heard gunfire aboard the vessel. They immediately responded killing two of the pirates and capturing thirteen others. They also found two more dead pirates that had been dead for some time. They at the time of the report, did not know how those two died.

Methinks it's time to address this problem.

Todd

Manuel February 22nd, 2011 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddDH (Post 1354325)

Methinks it's time to address this problem.

Todd


Yes! The time has come to take action!

TM

anniegb February 22nd, 2011 11:42 AM

I feel so sorry for the families - how awful.

Annie

DougR. February 22nd, 2011 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manuel (Post 1354326)
Yes! The time has come to take action!

TM

What action do you propose? Blow any suspect craft in the area out of the water and let God sort out the innocent? Invade Somalia and involve our already streched thin military in a third front? The major problem is that many of our timid Euorpean friends would much rather pay the ransom and look the other way.

Talking tough is easy, putting a rational winning strategy into action is not.

With the fiscal situation as it is, I cannot see launching another major military action to be viable. While the loss of 4 American lives is regrettable, that alone is not worth plunging us billions of dollars more into debt.

Mean Dean February 22nd, 2011 01:43 PM

As discussed in a previous thread.....

The solution to this problem is relatively simple. Organize all civilian ships into convoys and escort them through the area, preferrably with 33-knot, large-caliber surface combat ships.

Rules of Engagement equally simple: Any approaching ship shall be given a warning to withdraw. Failure to do so will be met with large-caliber rife fire.

Aerogirl February 22nd, 2011 02:26 PM

How horrible. They died doing something they were passionate about and knew the dangers of their mission. Very sad to hear it turned out this way.

Trip February 22nd, 2011 03:22 PM

I wish the outcome was, they were all saved, and, safe..so sad for the families...I only question why they were in that part of the world, knowing they had to be putting their safety in jeopardy. Their passion for missionary work, admirable to say the least, certainly could have sent them to safer waters:(jmho....

Marc February 22nd, 2011 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougR. (Post 1354339)
What action do you propose? Blow any suspect craft in the area out of the water and let God sort out the innocent? Invade Somalia and involve our already streched thin military in a third front? The major problem is that many of our timid Euorpean friends would much rather pay the ransom and look the other way.

Talking tough is easy, putting a rational winning strategy into action is not.

With the fiscal situation as it is, I cannot see launching another major military action to be viable. While the loss of 4 American lives is regrettable, that alone is not worth plunging us billions of dollars more into debt.

Doug, I imagine you would not have wanted our Navy to cross the Atlantic to fight the Barbary Pirates two centuries ago, either.

When Seven Seas Voyager crossed gulf of Aden last year, they were put into a convoy. They had Israeli commandos join the ship, too. Unfortunately, unless you are sticking to a set speed or set course, it is hard to put all ships into convoys.

Donna February 22nd, 2011 06:48 PM

I still had held hope that they would be found alive. What a useless crime and for what?? They were just doing something they believed in...

Manuel February 22nd, 2011 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mean Dean (Post 1354372)
As discussed in a previous thread.....

The solution to this problem is relatively simple. Organize all civilian ships into convoys and escort them through the area, preferrably with 33-knot, large-caliber surface combat ships.

Rules of Engagement equally simple: Any approaching ship shall be given a warning to withdraw. Failure to do so will be met with large-caliber rife fire.

Nice to see you post Mean Dean.

Your statement makes sence.

TM

Phil&Liz February 22nd, 2011 09:03 PM

Given the current unrest in the general area, it would not be unreasonable to begin tasking some "support" vessels.

I have some concerns that the end result of continued unrest in the area will be the closure of the Suez.

This would then certainly bring in ALOT of firepower.

Lakers Fan February 22nd, 2011 09:12 PM

The US should follow the lead of Israel

ToddDH February 22nd, 2011 09:24 PM

Would it take another war? Hardly. Actually, Mean Dean made a very valid point. It's a shame we have no heavy cruiser with 8" rifles or battleships with 16" rifles anymore even though they are admittedly obsolete. On something such as this they'd come in very handy indeed.

We know where most of the pirates congregate. There is also a carrier in the area. Only the Navy knows how many subs armed with cruise missiles are either in or may be deployed to the area, not to mention missile cruisers and destroyers.

Our Navy is not overtaxed as are our ground troops and there is no real reason to put any "boots on the ground" except maybe to try and rescue at least some of the 300 or so hostages being held. Admittedly and sadly, most may well be killed. There are diplomats and learned folk with significant experience in this situation who still say, this is not what the pirates want, they only want money. To my way of thinking, that changed today.

The alternative however really is to just let this continue and in my hpo, that is not a viable option. Maybe the shipping magnets want to go ahead and pay the ransoms but the shipping magnets aren't crewing those ships. Negotiate? They tried that for three years with Hitler and we all know what the result of those efforts were. These guys have amply demonstrated they want to play hardball. Okay, lets play hardball. Among other things the Naval Air accompanied by destroyers and cruisers could sink every vessel of any significant size from a dow up. For gosh sakes, we sunk what amounts to the entire Japanese merchant marine AND Imperial Japanese Navy (one of the largest in the world at the time) most often with air power (with some very notable heavy gun engagements among warships excepted) in less than three years and that was in 42-45. With today's technology to do the same thing to Ethiopia that has comparatively nothing, even though it has one of if not the longest coastline in the world would not amount to much more than gunnery practice! I'm not talking about killing thousands and thousands of people, and I'm not even beginning to suggest we invade. I'm talking about taking away their seagoing transportation and destroying what ports they have

I do hope that people now understand that these aren't the really, "not bad kids who only take up this type of work so they can make a living" claim as has oft been espoused through TV interviews. These are cold blooded killers and I don't care if they're aged sixteen, twenty or fifty. The "Oh we're not bad people and we don't want to hurt anybody but we need to eat" claim from the street is horse manure. Tell that to those four missionaires who were cut down for no reason. Ethiopia has actually devolved into nothing more than a large area of land where the guy with the biggest stick in his neighborhood controls it. Hell it doesn't even have a real government!

When many of the Nazi death camps were overrun and the guards surrendered, the Allied soldiers of various nationalities were so incensed that they just started gunning them down where they found them, those that the prisoners didn't get to first. It's a wonder any of those inhuman (insert whatever expletive you wish if you wish, here) made it to the gallows. Is that right? I can't answer that question because I wasn't there but what I shall say is that I've had this discussion in my 63 years people both combat veterans and Jewish prisoners who were, simply because it involved my area of study. None of those with whom I've had that discussion and we're talking maybe about maybe thirty or forty people, I repeat NONE OF THEM appeared to have expressed much of a problem at all with it.

I as does everyone else has no idea what action if any will be taken. As a matter of fact I think it's safe to say even the government does not yet know. I'm only saying that in my opinion action and significant action at that, should be employed. What or how that could occur the guys with the stars on their shoulder boards are competent to make those decisions.

This is of course merely my personal opinion and if anyone has issue with it, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that. This is an open forum and I believe this issue should be cogently discussed, wherever you stand.

Todd

ship2shore February 23rd, 2011 02:22 AM

How about common sense? You don't hike in Iran and you don't sail Bibles to Somalia.

DougR. February 23rd, 2011 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc (Post 1354438)
Doug, I imagine you would not have wanted our Navy to cross the Atlantic to fight the Barbary Pirates two centuries ago, either.

When Seven Seas Voyager crossed gulf of Aden last year, they were put into a convoy. They had Israeli commandos join the ship, too. Unfortunately, unless you are sticking to a set speed or set course, it is hard to put all ships into convoys.

Your comparison does not hold water. Different time, different circumstances, different social values.

I don't believe that those who want to take action realize the immense size of the area that the Somali pirates attack, it is very nearly the size of the United States east of the Missisippi. The fleet required to police the area is more than we can provide. Other nations are there patrolling also, but hardly enough to cover the area.

It should be made clear to recreational sailors, regardless how noble their purpose, that they are taking thier lives in their own hands. The US Navy will attempt to help but negotiating with teenage pirates is often fruitless and they are liable to be killed.

katlady February 23rd, 2011 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougR. (Post 1354339)
What action do you propose? Blow any suspect craft in the area out of the water and let God sort out the innocent? Invade Somalia and involve our already streched thin military in a third front? The major problem is that many of our timid Euorpean friends would much rather pay the ransom and look the other way.

Talking tough is easy, putting a rational winning strategy into action is not.

With the fiscal situation as it is, I cannot see launching another major military action to be viable. While the loss of 4 American lives is regrettable, that alone is not worth plunging us billions of dollars more into debt.

You make some excellent points. I feel sorry for the familes of the victims. But that is a part of the world I would not go anywhere near. I'm wondering why they went in this area at all. Just because they are American doesn't mean we need to involve ourself a war with Somalia. For one thing this isn't being done by the Somalian government so who would we fight? How would we find them? It's up to the Somalian government to handle this situation. The only way we should be involved is to not cruise, vacation or do anything else, including charity work, in this part of the world until the Pirates issue is handled by the Somalian government. It is not the USA's job to police the world nor do we have the resources to do it.

rollerdonna February 23rd, 2011 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ship2shore (Post 1354555)
How about common sense? You don't hike in Iran and you don't sail Bibles to Somalia.

You make a valid point. Why on earth would anybody in their right minds want to sail in this area, fully aware of the dangers?

donna

katlady February 23rd, 2011 10:35 AM

ToddDH I politely disagree with your comparison between the Nazis and the Pirates. The Nazis were invading surrounding countries. They were an invading nation and Germany's form of government at the time. They had allies it was war regardless of what the USA did. The Nazis started a war. This is different. Somaili Pirates are about to invade England.

What if the English wanted to come over here are fight the intercity gangs because 4 English tourists got killed by a gang in Compton CA. Would that be okay with the USA. This is a much more similar situation then the Nazis. This is Somaili's issue they should police their own country. We should stay the heck out of the area. If we go into the area we should understand we are risking our lives.

ToddDH February 23rd, 2011 11:18 AM

Katlady,

I think you missed my point. I wasn't meaning that today's situation was compared to the Nazis. The point I was trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully, was these people have started acting like the Nazis. They have now vowed to continue this behavior unless we release the guy who was just sentenced to prison. Then they, for no valid reason, killed these four people and believe me, unless something is done it will continue. The leaders of the pirates have promised this, especially targeting American vessels, not just yachts but all American shipping. That is tantamount to a small island such as Cuba cutting off the Caribbean to American shipping. If this country were to not address this issue with severity, every two bit radical nation on earth would feel emboldened to also impose it's own "sanctions" on our country even going literally hundreds of miles beyond it's coastline to do so.

As someone so aptly pointed out and as I also wrote, there is no way to control their coastline but there is a way to make their current nefarious activities as regards world shipping untenable. I strongly agree that other nations should join us in this nation in our efforts but we especially have to do something because now they are specifically targeting innocent Americans (they could just have well been merchant mariners on a cargo ship). They have access to "Mother ships" and by that I'm talking about ocean going vessels that enable them to attack international shipping hundreds of miles off their coasts. They are, in effect, closing off an entire section of the ocean thus making individuals as well as an ever increasing amount of world commerce either sail all the way across the Pacific or go around the Horn of Africa which is one of the most dangerous areas of ocean in the world because of terrible storms. And the pirates aren't even a government although they and similar factions control such vast areas of Ethiopia as to make the Ethiopian government themselves tonly be able to actually have authority in but an insignificant portion of their own country because there is no way to enforce the law. As a matter of fact, that government itself has begged for help to stop these pirates. The only other way to undermine the pirates would be to totally support (meaning feed, clothe, provide medical care, etc.) the entire nation of Ethiopia and that just is not going to happen. Half of Europe is already in turmoil domestically because they cannot even afford to continue their own former policies of social support in their own countries. We too are getting to that stage and if this country allows itself to be in effect cut off from whole sections of the globe because of this situation is beyond the pale and that is what the pirates are doing.

If it were just along the immediate area of their coastline say about fifty miles then that would be a different story. But these people currently have the capability to go hundreds of miles beyond that point and have amply proven it.

Todd


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