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  #31 (permalink)  
Old May 7th, 2011, 01:31 PM
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If our zeal to rub our revenge in the faces of the world were to result in the release of the photos, those photos would be used by our enemies as a shrine for bin Laden, a rallying point for those who hate us. It would feed the vicious circle of hate and one-upsmanship that we should be trying to break.

And the release of photos would do nothing to help me remember 9/11. I was lucky that I didn't lose any family or friends, but one son was and still is a pilot for an airline based in Dallas. He lost comrades just as surely as the firefighters and the police did. Our other son was on his way to work in lower Manhattan, but stopped off at the NYU gym to work out. If he hadn't, who knows? And my wife was in an office building a block and a half from the White House, where the Shanksville plane may or may not have been headed (it was either there or the Capitol).

Most Americans have ties to 9/11, even if they're two or three degrees of separation away. Those who don't will still remember, and graphic death photos will do nothing to refresh memories that can never be dimmed.

Getting the job done in a workmanlike way and moving on to the next item on the agenda represents the best of who we are. Bombast and chest-thumping do not.
If the U.S.A did not want to Bombast and chest thump then why did they put the news out there that this waste of human flesh was dead in the first place? Wouldnt that be more dangerous for the troops then a picture? They were pretty fast on the draw with that one.They also released so called graphic photos of his hinchmen lying dead why not him.Does he have a speacial place in our hearts or is he held to a hire standard then his hinchmen and by the way the pictures were not that graphic. And as far as the picture of him being dead used to make a shrine for Him I think we are throwing pleny of pictures out there for that! I am sure there are plenty of Americans who would like to see a picture of this piece of trash dead Just throw it in with all the other pictures we have or will be releasing!that
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Old May 7th, 2011, 01:57 PM
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He's dead. If he were still alive there would have been a "video" released by now.

I think that the U.S. and the rest of the world should just move on. Even though that isn't going to happen.

Don't release the photos.

Take care,
Mike
I agree, letís not add fuel to the fire! Time to move on!
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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:37 PM
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I agree, letís not add fuel to the fire! Time to move on!
Move on and forget thats one of the problems with this country .We just rather forget and move on become passive dont upset any one espesialy the reliougus world Sit back in are cozy little worlds until somebody does another horrable thing to us then we will all hang out the flags some will cry then we will forget and move on until the next time.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 02:40 PM
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Note to Venice:

Let it go; not worth it.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 03:00 PM
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why do some people just follow along like cattle in a herd does anyone dare to step out of the box and have their own opions any more? I guess if you cant conform people to your way of thinking then its not worth it to have a discussion! Myself I like to express my opions and my thoughts and I also like to Question authority! Everyone is not going to see eye to eye on every matter thats what makes this world an interesting place I guess if you dont see it like that then let it go its not worth it!
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Old May 7th, 2011, 04:11 PM
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why do some people just follow along like cattle in a herd does anyone dare to step out of the box and have their own opions any more? I guess if you cant conform people to your way of thinking then its not worth it to have a discussion! Myself I like to express my opions and my thoughts and I also like to Question authority! Everyone is not going to see eye to eye on every matter thats what makes this world an interesting place I guess if you dont see it like that then let it go its not worth it!
If you’re replying to me I’m not going along with anything, it is my own opinion about releasing the photos. It’s over and done with. We as a nation will never forget the life shattering day. The majority of people who lost loved ones weren’t the ones celebrating in the streets when the new broke that he had been killed and the ones they interviewed stated they don’t believe the photos should be released. Everyone is entitled to the way they feel and just because some may not agree with you does in no way make them cattle.

I do however think people believe pretty much what their told, I’m one of those people who think Americans are sadly misinformed on most levels, but that’s just my opinion.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 04:35 PM
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While I believe he is dead - I also believe the twin towers were hit by planes and that we landed on the moon - But I can't help feeling they should have brought something of him back to prove they had him.

The kill shot? no. But why not didacted pictures of the respectable and observant burial at sea?

How about one lock of hair just for proof of DNA to the masses. They could justify it by saying they wanted a hair sample for chemical analysis (they wanted to know if he was on certain medications as their informants had told them, for example). I don't understand the hurry to eliminate all trace of his existence.

I fear the conspiracy theorists will come out about this - and it could get crazy. How about this one - a certain subversive president made a deal with a terrorist so he could get re-elected?

With the whackos we have in our society these days I don't consider anything to stupid to be believed anymore.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 06:26 PM
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If youíre replying to me Iím not going along with anything, it is my own opinion about releasing the photos. Itís over and done with. We as a nation will never forget the life shattering day. The majority of people who lost loved ones werenít the ones celebrating in the streets when the new broke that he had been killed and the ones they interviewed stated they donít believe the photos should be released. Everyone is entitled to the way they feel and just because some may not agree with you does in no way make them cattle.

I do however think people believe pretty much what their told, Iím one of those people who think Americans are sadly misinformed on most levels, but thatís just my opinion.
Sorry But I was not replying to you or anyone else! And it is not done with Just watch the news!I to am entiled to my opion as we all are.As far as the ones being interviewed not wanting the photos released that is their opion .I would like to see the photos not because I dont think hes not dead I just want to see the Picture of this piece of crap dead!As far as peoples loses on that day you know nothing about me or my family.And i Im sure there are plenty of people out there who would like to have a look at those pictures.i dont understand how people can be so passive1
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Old May 7th, 2011, 07:23 PM
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I don't see any value in seeing a photo of a dead guy, I am sure there are people who think he is still alive, I don't a photo would change there mind. Time to move on to more current and pressing issues, like the economy. Mike
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Old May 7th, 2011, 08:06 PM
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Yes release the pics. I do believe osama is dead but would like to see the pics. The fuel was fired when the seals killed osama. They already warned of more attacks to the u.s. in the future. Graphic pics were those of victims jumping out the windows of the towers to their death. A bullet to the head was a easy death for osama.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 10:34 PM
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[QUOTE=Dhill;1369863]Sorry But I was not replying to you or anyone else! And it is not done with Just watch the news!I to am entiled to my opion as we all are.As far as the ones being interviewed not wanting the photos released that is their opion .I would like to see the photos not because I dont think hes not dead I just want to see the Picture of this piece of crap dead!As far as peoples loses on that day you know nothing about me or my family.And i Im sure there are plenty of people out there who would like to have a look at those pictures.i dont understand how people can be so passive1[/QUOTE

I didnít imply that I know anything about your family or you. To each his own. MOOO
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old May 7th, 2011, 11:22 PM
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I truly thank everyone for their opinions and the reasons for them. I thought it would make for an interesting thread and it did.

I personally learned from both sides. I was ambivalent until the Secretary of Defense thought it might be dangerous to our troops. That alone was good enough for me. I am confident that reason wasn't for many, but that is just my opinion on why I took the stance I did.

As Venice pointed out, there is too much what I call "immediate news," and yes I believe in some censorship in war time although I'm sure many would disagree, some ballistically. To attempt to validate this point I love pointing out that were there to have been live and uncensored media at Normandy, Dwight Eisenhower would have been out of a job by 6:00 PM June 6, 1944. At Tarawa it (and I have a firend who was at Guadalcanal, Tarawa and several other invasions) was even much worse and that's a tiny piece of island! At Tarawa we suffered 3,296 Marine casualties including 1000 dead in just 76 hours.

During wars, declared or otherwise, there are unlimited GOOD reasons why the public doesn't need to see everything or especially know nor should they want to.

To put things in yet another perspective, we value the life of our troops so highly that we get upset that approximately 6,000 have lost their lives in all areas of combat in the past eight years. I agree that's a grievous loss but I just want to point out that we lost an average of 416 dead each and every day of WW II in combat, training accidents and illness (over 291,500 from combat alone). That's 416 dead every single day of WWII. Actually the 1st and 6th Marine Divisions's war didn't end until October 15, 1945 when they accepted the surrender of 500,000 Japanese troops in China. That final tally of American dead was over .307% of the US population of 1940. Our losses today are around .002% thus far of our population and that is before the latest census figures were released to it's even less today.

We have become a nation that protects it's troops better than ever in our history and undoubtedly better than any other country. To repeat Gen. George Patton's remark, "You don't die for your country, you make the other sonofa***** die for his!

Finally, war is not pretty nor is it even chivalrous. It's horrible but if we enter combat we should do so with very defined goals and supply the support to achieve that. The best way is with overwhelming force and violence beyond imagination. I am so afraid that we will find ourselves eventually in a severe bind with the wishy-washyness of how we have, for probably the past forty years, entered into conflicts. Get in -- Get out and let the losers clean up the mess. Let them clean up their destroyed countries, areas or whatever. There are areas of the world that we would never be able to democratize and those are often areas in which we now find ourselves. In my opinion, get in, kill the bad guys and let's stop this "you can shoot that guy but don't hit that other guy standing next to him." I can't imagine the numbers of casualties we have suffered just from such political correctness. Our military does not indiscriminately kill people. That was more than proven in Desert Storm when we allowed thousands of troops to just run away even though we had every right under the rules of war to gun them down.

As for the Geneva Convention, it might help were people who love to spout off that we're always violating it to read it. By the way, we didn't even sign it until 1977 and I for one am very sorry that we did. Non uniformed combatants are like guerillas, they are not afforded the protections usually offered by the Geneva Convention. People of the ilk of Osama Bin Laden, etc., should be shot down like the dogs they are, whenever and wherever they are found. And for those who might think so, absolutely no laws were broken when we did just that. I have to tell you that as a student of war when I hear from some well meaning soul, "We should arrest him and bring him back for trial" I honestly have to say, "Okay, you want that? Then you pick up an M-16 or whatever, get out your passport and YOU go and arrest him!" And remember this, if there is "collateral damage" (the euphemism today often used for civilian deaths) while certainly not always, the overwhelming number of these people are those who are actively supporting and housing (of their own free will in most instances), the same people who are trying their best to destroy this country.

Thanks for all of your input.

Since I opened it, I now personally close this thread.

Todd

Last edited by ToddDH; May 7th, 2011 at 11:27 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2011, 11:50 PM
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How many american soldiers have to die for an unjust war ? Why are there troops in Iraq and Afghanistan ? Between 2003 and 2006 only 2 soldiers were sons/grandsons of members of congress .Two out of the hundreds of military age . The majority did not serve .
The trillions of dollars spent by our country to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan could instead have been used to eradicate homelessness in our country .

The US government should once and foreall stay out of the affairs of other fovernments .We should have learned after the Vietnam fiasco .I do not know one Vietnam veteran who believed that was a just war.

Fighting for oil rights is not a reason to die .
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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:22 AM
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How many american soldiers have to die for an unjust war ? Why are there troops in Iraq and Afghanistan ? Between 2003 and 2006 only 2 soldiers were sons/grandsons of members of congress .Two out of the hundreds of military age . The majority did not serve .
The trillions of dollars spent by our country to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan could instead have been used to eradicate homelessness in our country .

The US government should once and foreall stay out of the affairs of other fovernments .We should have learned after the Vietnam fiasco .I do not know one Vietnam veteran who believed that was a just war.

Fighting for oil rights is not a reason to die .
Well said I agree 100% !,Their is no good coming out of spending trillons of dollarars being there! It just feeds the rich while it buries the poor!

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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:18 PM
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I have seen my share of bodies that were shot to death and it is not a pretty sight.

I don't need to see anymore.

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Old May 8th, 2011, 09:45 PM
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While I believe he is dead - I also believe the twin towers were hit by planes and that we landed on the moon - But I can't help feeling they should have brought something of him back to prove they had him.

The kill shot? no. But why not didacted pictures of the respectable and observant burial at sea?

How about one lock of hair just for proof of DNA to the masses. They could justify it by saying they wanted a hair sample for chemical analysis (they wanted to know if he was on certain medications as their informants had told them, for example). I don't understand the hurry to eliminate all trace of his existence.

I fear the conspiracy theorists will come out about this - and it could get crazy. How about this one - a certain subversive president made a deal with a terrorist so he could get re-elected?

With the whackos we have in our society these days I don't consider anything to stupid to be believed anymore.
On Friday nights show Bill Maher spoke about the conspiracy theory that Republicans were responsible for the events of 9/11 and at the same time were planting evidence to discredit a future black american president .Of course this was a TIC comment but stranger things have happened .
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Old May 8th, 2011, 10:51 PM
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I have seen people dead with all sorts of injuries and mutilations--there's nothing pretty about a person, regardless of whom they are, with half their head blown away.
Why people have to keep on is beyond me. No one forces us to go in a herd like cattle--that's what the American soldier has kept us from doing since the Revolutionary War. We have the freedom to think and to do as we wish, as long as it's within the legal limits set up for an orderly society. Say what you want, think what you want and thank a soldier for the privilege of doing so.
Someone mentioned Vietnam, which always, always pops up--no wonder people can't forget it--it's because other people who weren't there won't ever, ever let you forget it. I agree--it was a waste of human life and since the topics been breached, I wasn't there for God, motherhood, apple pie and the American way of life nor to protect my country from the communist hordes that were trying to take over. I was there because I was tapped by the U.S.Army to go there. My grandfather was in Europe in WW 1. My dad was in Europe in WW 2. I wasn't going to run to Canada to hide out or go to jail to keep from going. I did what I had to do every day to stay alive and help keep my friends alive, knowing they were doing the same for me.
Nothing more --nothing less.
Someone said, and I don't know who, but I believe another Vietnam era soldier, " All the wrong people remember Vietnam--the ones who were there need to forget it--the ones who were not there should remember it." Sounds odd until you really study what it means.

There would be arguments no matter if we had brought bin Laden back in a pickle barrel and displayed him in the Smithsonian. You'll never satisfy those who believe everything is a huge conspiracy.
As Todd said, he's gone-- time to forget it -- good riddance and get on with cruising. Thanks for letting me get it off my chest.
Happy sails to all, and whether or not you agree, at least you have the right to pick your side!!
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Old May 9th, 2011, 08:05 AM
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Have to disgree with you some things should not be forgoten did we forget Pearlharbor ? Do you think all the people who have given up their lives in times of war should be forgotten .Then you must be against the Vietnam memorial war wall!In my opion we should never forget these times in our history and I feel that Americans are to passive and forgetful! Lets all just forget and hide are heads in the sand and think were living a cozy little safe life. And I do Believe that in many ways we behave like a bunch of cattle in a herd were told do that, dont do that what ever happened to people who would stand up for what they believe in and not be afraid to go against the ststus qoe We are all intitled to our opions I am intitled to mine and you to yours. we may not agree but that doesnt make anyone better than the other!
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Old May 9th, 2011, 08:53 AM
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Apologies in advance - I am probably combining a couple of threads!

What a week last week was for news! It has taken me 1 week to absorb the news properly.

20% of me agrees with the manner in which OBL was treated.

80% of me thinks OBL should have been brought back to USA and subjected to the legal process.

100% of me thinks it was inappropriate to dispose of his body the way it was done. Burial at sea is not in the Islamic tradition.

100% of me thinks we should not publish the photographs - faint hope!

100% of me thinks the conspiracy theorists will never go away - remember Dallas 1963!

Time to move on I think.

Annie

PS The Vietnam memorial in DC was very moving and treated very respectfully by everyone when I was there in April - so,so sad. Remind me please of what that war achieved?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 09:15 AM
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Ron, I like what you had to say. I don't think you ment to say to forget, but what you ment was to learn from the mistakes made, and move on.

Because of Nam, the Armed forces learned so many lessons about recruitment, drugs, battle field organization.

I do not care of the photos are released or not. If they are I will look, if they are not, then I will go on as before.
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Old May 9th, 2011, 10:38 AM
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Thanks Luanne. You got what I was saying--other did not. Guess it's because you're married to soldier!!
Anyway, hope everyone has a great week and maybe we can scrape by without any more deaths, storms, bad news and think about a nice, balmy cruise to a tropical isle!!
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Old May 9th, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Apologies in advance - I am probably combining a couple of threads!

What a week last week was for news! It has taken me 1 week to absorb the news properly.

20% of me agrees with the manner in which OBL was treated.

80% of me thinks OBL should have been brought back to USA and subjected to the legal process.(That is my feeling .The Israeli's did that with Eichman )

100% of me thinks it was inappropriate to dispose of his body the way it was done. Burial at sea is not in the Islamic tradition.(I agree)

100% of me thinks we should not publish the photographs - faint hope!

100% of me thinks the conspiracy theorists will never go away - remember Dallas 1963!(Not just Dallas ,RFK ,Abraham Lincoln ,Malcolm X ,Martin Luther King ,Abbie Hoffman ,Jerry Ruben)

Time to move on I think.

Annie

PS The Vietnam memorial in DC was very moving and treated very respectfully by everyone when I was there in April - so,so sad. Remind me please of what that war achieved?
I realize that there was a bounty on OBL .

When I was 12 my best friend age 10 was murdered by 3 pre-teens .Two were killed by the police .One is still alive ,should I be allowed to hunt him down and kill him ?
Seven years after my girl friend was raped ,should I have been allowed to find the rapist and cause him harm ?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Ron, I think it has a lot to do with living it, instead of reading it on the internet. Some will never truely know what went on, and they never will. That is okay, but it bothers me when people go to these wild web sites, and believe everything they say.

Henry, I know you were terribley hurt by your friends murder. You have every right to be.

Henry, I have a question for you. What would you have done after 9/11?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 11:42 AM
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LuAnne :

I believe that with all the resources this country has available it should not have taken 10 years to find OBL . I have a childhood friend who recently retired from the CIA . I would love to discuss this with him but I know he would not reveal anything .
As I have posted numerous times before ,a high percentage of my friends are retired NYC police officers and some are retired Federal officers .They are in agreement with me .
The family of my friend who died at the WTC agree as well and a good percentage of people they are in contact with who lost loved ones cannot fathom why it took so long .
I should add that everyone who I personally have spoken to believes that OBL should have been brought back to NYC or to Washington ,DC to stand trial .This is what the Israeli's did with Eichman and what our country has been doing when WWII Nazi's are tracked down in the US .
Each of my parents lost siblings in concentration camps . They did not say that Eichman should have been murdered .
American clergy of all faiths believe that OBL should have been brought back to face justice .
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Old May 9th, 2011, 11:50 AM
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Henry, What would you have done? Also, does it bother you that we have people at Gitmo who are still waiting for trial after all these years.

Would you have allowed OBL the Miranda rights?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 12:18 PM
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Yes ,it bothers me that the people are still awaiting trial .

If I was in power I would have used every resource possible to find those responsible for 911
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Old May 9th, 2011, 12:44 PM
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So you don't think that was done? He was not easy to find, or I believe he would have been found.

I have another question for you. If you were in power, what would you do with the military? If they can't protect, then they need to be disbanded right? Remember Gitmo is military. Would you accept those prisoners to come to NY for trial?

Also, Tell us more about your belief that Bush caused 9/11. That has always puzzled me. Do you think he ordered it done? Do you think he set the explosives himself?
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Old May 9th, 2011, 04:15 PM
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LuAnne:

I never said that I believed that Bush was responsible for the events of 911 .I merely stated there was a suggestion and if you read what I wrote it was that I do not necessarily subscribe to the theory .Some people have a habit of reading "between the lines ."
As far as not being able to find OBL . We live in the greatest country in the world .We have more resources that any other country .There should be a way of finding anyone .
I believe in having a standing military but we should not have troops in Germany ,Italy and every other country that we have troops in .
I believe we should leave Cuba ,we should stay out of the affairs of Israel and that Jonathan Pollack should be freed .
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Old May 9th, 2011, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
I believe in having a standing military but we should not have troops in Germany ,Italy and every other country that we have troops in .
.
I also believe in having a strong military ready to defend our country. But I believe that they should be stationed here in the US not in Germany, Italy, Korea or any other country that we have troops in.
I am not anti-military ( I am a Vietnam Veteran ), but we can not afford to keep our troops all over the world nor shoud we.

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Old May 9th, 2011, 05:17 PM
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Why say you don't believe Bush was involved, unless you believed it? You are the one that posted it.

Troops have all but been pulled out of Germany. There is a vital need for some units, because if we need to be in Europe in a hurry, the posts will be there, and the agreements will be needed for things like fly overs, and supplies.

When you say we need to be out of Cuba, do you mean Gitmo?

You made a point to bring up the fact that the only troops you would support are the ones who say "Hell no we won't go" I remember you saying this because I was decribing the fact that my beloved hubby was about to go to Iraq, in a morning thread. I was hurt then, but now I would love for you to tell me what you really think. Would you even have a military, if you were in power? I have to tell you that ones who say hell no are cowards, and that is not what you would want, because it would not be good to have ones who only defended when they wanted to.

As far as us having the best to go after BLN, your right, but you have to also remember, he was the head guy, not the whole package. The military you think so little of, has been a little busy.

You have mentioned many times now about your friend that was killed. How long ago was that, Henry? 50 years? 40? My son was murdered 2 years ago. The reason I am not worried about seeing pictures with BLN is I had to see the pictures of my son with the top of his head blown off. Don't give me the crap about your friend. You are preaching to the choir here.

I hate fighting. I hate guns. I hate my husband has to leave me to go and protect others, but I am not a complete fool. The world we live in is dangerous. And no amount of pot smoking, cowardness, and putting our heads in a hole is going to change that. I have said it before, and I will say it again. We get out of the Middle East, and they will be here, because they hate us.

BY the way, Obama didn't get BLN, nor did Bush. Those people that you think so little of did their jobs. They trained, and they trained hard. When you were sitting in front of your computer, they were getting up at o dark thirty, and hopefully was able to sleep in a day or two. They didn't do it alone, because one or two can't do it, it takes them all.

Next time the the fools attack NYC, don't go to the web site for losers that you have learned so much about, and support, look toward the skies and see if you see Venice's wonderful son, or the men and women who have your back every day, whether you care about them or not.
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