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Old July 18th, 2011, 08:54 AM
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Is it just me? but looking round the various cruise sites there appears to be people with no apparent interest in cruising who only answer posts to criticise others or make spiteful remarks....OK, non cruisers have to start somewhere but these people are not like that. Why pick a cruise site to do this? do other sites on different subjects get this? I know travel sites do..like Tripadvisor.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:02 PM
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johnthed0g,

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Is it just me? but looking round the various cruise sites there appears to be people with no apparent interest in cruising who only answer posts to criticise others or make spiteful remarks....OK, non cruisers have to start somewhere but these people are not like that. Why pick a cruise site to do this? do other sites on different subjects get this? I know travel sites do..like Tripadvisor.
The only sites that don't have this problem are sites that steadfastly monitor posts and kick off "trolls" as they identify them -- and even that has very limited effectiveness. When kicked off of a discussion board site, the typical "troll" will simply create a new user ID using a different e-mail address, then use the new user ID to resume the obnoxious behavior. Since one can get unlimited free e-mail accounts from Yahoo! and other sites, there's no real limit to this behavior.

In the early days of the Internet, each computer had a static Internet Protocol (IP) address, set into its configuration, so it was possible to use the IP address to block the offender's computer (excpting computers provided for common use at libraries and Internet cafes). Alas, two significant technological developments a couple decades ago changed that.

>> 1. The use of static IP addresses required IS managers to keep track of the IP addresses in use at their facilities manually to ensure that each computer had a unique address. They also had to set the address manually when configuring new systems. This was very time-consuming and error-prone. To streamline matters, they shifted to dynamic IP addresses in which each computer obtains an available address from an address server when it joins a network and relinquisihes it when it leaves the network. The IP address server manages the addresses within its assigned block to ensure that only one computer uses each address at any given time. But as a result of this innovation, a computer that's shut down or rebooted is likely to restart with a different IP address.

>> 2. The invention of the network router allows a whole network of computers, called the internal network, to appear logically as a single computer to the outside world (called the external network). The router maintains a list of pending requests from within the network and the associated internal address, swapping the correct address on the internal network for its own address on the external network on packets coming in and swapping its own address on the internal network for the correct address on the external network on packets going out. Most modern routers also act as IP address servers for the internal network. Note that, with the use of routers, the Internet is no longer limited to 4294967296 computers corresponding to the numer of distinct addresses allowed by the width (32 bits) of an IP address.

As a result of these advances, (1) posts from a "troll" do not necessarily have a consistent IP address and (2) posts from the same IP address are not necessarily coming from the same user. Thus, it is no longer practicable to use IP addresses to weed out "trolls."

Norm.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:30 PM
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It's strange that people with no knowledge of a subject, would actively search for a website, to give their opinion, with no substance to back up what they say. There are site jumpers, that go from place to place when they wear out their welcome. We have had some over the course of our history..
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:36 PM
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Norm...most informative reply, I had forgotten I had posted the thread!
I realise about trolls, I learnt about them on Tripadvisor, didn't know the IP thing though. I wonder why this happens though, why would you join a site you had no interest in?
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:40 PM
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It's strange that people with no knowledge of a subject, would actively search for a website, to give their opinion, with no substance to back up what they say. There are site jumpers, that go from place to place when they wear out their welcome. We have had some over the course of our history..
I am fairly unwelcome on most sites!! one reason given was "posting too much" another was ''answering too many questions''...I thought this was a good thing & actually asked Kuki about it when I joined.
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:42 PM
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John, that's their loss..our gain
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Old July 19th, 2011, 06:53 PM
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John, that's their loss..our gain
Thank you kind lady....I was actually banned from Cruisedot UK "for posting way too much" I was quite surprised considering some sites(including that one) reward prolific posters with free trips!!
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Old July 20th, 2011, 09:54 AM
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I'm certainly no shrink, but I have an instinct that there's some measure of sour grapes at work in people who do this. While they say they aren't interested in cruising and bash people who are, I'd bet a nice lunch that a fair number of them are unable to cruise because of health issues, money, or whatever, and twist that into disdain as a defense mechanism.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Nice post, Norm. Some cocktail-party trivia: the term "troll" doesn't refer to the mythical Scandinavian creature, but originated based on message board users who troll like fishermen, hoping for a bite to their posts.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 05:24 PM
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johnthed0g,

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Originally Posted by You View Post
Norm...most informative reply...
Thank you for your kind words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I realise about trolls, I learnt about them on Tripadvisor, didn't know the IP thing though. I wonder why this happens though, why would you join a site you had no interest in?
I would not, but there are some psychologically deranged people in this world who get their kicks, a feeling of self-importance, by being a nuisance to others. Another web site to which I belong has discussion boards for groups with a variety of that the members of the site have requested over the years. There's a relatively large heard of Atheists who persist in posting antagonistic comments advocating positions contrary to Christian values on the board designated for Christians to discuss religious and spiritual matters. It really does grow wearisome. By contrast, the "trolls" on this site seem to be pretty tame.

Norm.

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Old July 20th, 2011, 05:42 PM
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Aidan,

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Nice post, Norm.
Well, except for the typos, but thank you for your kind words in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Some cocktail-party trivia: the term "troll" doesn't refer to the mythical Scandinavian creature, but originated based on message board users who troll like fishermen, hoping for a bite to their posts.
Yes, that's basically correct. The reality, though, is that most "trolls" go away if you just ignore them; hence the sage saying, "Don't feed the trolls!"

But here, I should point out that there's a major distinction between "trawling" and "trolling" -- and they have very different implications for maritime navigation. "Trawling" consists of dragging nets through the water to catch fish in them. The far end of the net may be attached either to a retractable boom or to another trawler. "Trolling" consists of servicing submerged equipment such as communication cables and lobster traps.

The U. S. Coast Guard frequently deploys harbor patrol boats to ensure that power vessels don't get in the way of USCGC Eagle (the Coast Guard Academy's barque) when she enters or leaves port under sail because a vessel under sail normally has the right of way over any power driven vessel. Alas, as USCGC Eagle was entering port under sail one day, a vessel servicing lobster traps went into the channel some distance in front of her. The harbor patrol boats saw the vessel enter the channel and started out to give chase. The Captain of USCGC Eagle had a much higher vantage point, and could see the men on deck servicing the traps -- which the men on the harbor patrol boats could not see -- so he radioed the information to the harbor patrol boats and called off the intercept, undoubtedly cursing under his breath while doing so because of the work involved for the crew of the vessel under sail to avoid the trolling vessel. Yes, a "trolling" vessel has the right of way over a vessel under sail whereas a "trawling" vessel would not.

Norm.

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Old July 20th, 2011, 06:00 PM
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Trolling is a method of hobby fishing where a bait or artificial lure is drawn behind a moving boat. I can see the comparison in trying for a bite.
I have always thought that the term "Troll" was likened to the Norwegian mythical creatures who pop up cause mayhem the pop down again....??
Some are completely nuts...but the lengths they go to do not suggest they are stupid!
Some on forums are paranoid too, I have recently been taken to task because a banned member on another site is a friend on my Facebook thingy, my business I think.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:01 AM
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I've been on sites that have been infested with one or more trolls. One site in particular was soooo prolific as a troll, she became the running joke, we knew her MO, her posting style, her inciting methods ... it became very easy to spot her.

I've been on other sites where the problem of trolls is sooooooo bad, that every newbie is guilty until proven innocent and is accused of being a troll. It's was tooooo energy-draining to have to prove oneself as a good one.

I think the sites that have the worst troll problems are those that are pooly moderated. The worst sites are those that are user-moderated and you get a clique of regular posters who appoint themselves high and mighty and resposnible for running the board; add to that a poor moderator, and the site is doomed for failure.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen of Oakville View Post

I think the sites that have the worst troll problems are those that are pooly moderated. The worst sites are those that are user-moderated and you get a clique of regular posters who appoint themselves high and mighty and resposnible for running the board; add to that a poor moderator, and the site is doomed for failure.
That is SO RIGHT!! this inner circle or clique seems quite common, so common I wonder if it is the same people?
What seems to happen is a group will form to target individuals, when challenged they deny being a gang. They all say we are not a gang just people who think the same (& just happen to post on the same things at the same time in support of each other!) they all think they are superior, they all think they are very clever, they are all SO convinced they are SO funny, they are sure they are not only right but IN the right, they all seem to think they speak for the site they are on.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 01:56 PM
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What Norm wrote is correct but these problems aren't too hard to overcome. The real problems come from users who are Internet Savvy and can easily make it almost impossible to block this type of user.

The worst thing that can happen to a board or site that relies on advertising is to get a reputation as a "clique" site or to be allowed to become off topic throughout the board(s).

As an admin and a moderator trying to keep things on topic and to not allow the clique impression to develop is a hard job. Here we try to keep "non-cruise" related topics in the Chit Chat area. You will not believe some of the emails we get when a post is moved or deleted. People take it as a personal insult because their post was moved to the appropriate board or direct attacks are deleted. You do not want to lose your regulars but you also do not want to alienate the people looking for pertinent information.

Many regulars think they and other regulars are the only people reading or seeing their postings. This is completely wrong. Chit Chat here is a good example. It's a great place for people to keep up with each other but while it may have the most "posts" it is far from the most viewed. It is a major reason we made the request to keep postings on the cruise related boards on-topic and off topic postings would be removed and why cruise related postings may be moved from Chit Chat to the appropriate board. This simple request was met with some pretty nasty comments and a lot of discussion.

We have also had requests that certain people be removed from the boards because they make statements that go against the opinions of a group of regulars. We don't do that unless the postings are direct attacks, posted purely to agitate (hard to prove) or vulgar. When moderators start removing people because they disagree about a cruise line, port, or something political then you might as well shut the board down because it has become a "clique site".

There will always be trolls and the best thing to do is ignore them or use the "report this post" function, in the upper right corner of the posting, and just move on without responding.

Nothing is better than a lively discussion and we strongly encourage this but when it gets out of hand that's when we step in.

Take care,
Mike
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:02 PM
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Years before CM, there was a board that was infamous for flaming people for the simplest things.I used to say you need kevlar jackets to post there.

It's too bad, beacuse the good information got lost amongst the cliques, and, people did not want to ask questions, because they were intimidated by bullies.

Reading varying opinions is a good thing, and diveresity is welcome. No one can like everything, or everybody, but we strive to make this a welcoming board, with tons of information available
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:16 PM
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johnthed0g,

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That is SO RIGHT!! this inner circle or clique seems quite common, so common I wonder if it is the same people?
What seems to happen is a group will form to target individuals, when challenged they deny being a gang. They all say we are not a gang just people who think the same (& just happen to post on the same things at the same time in support of each other!) they all think they are superior, they all think they are very clever, they are all SO convinced they are SO funny, they are sure they are not only right but IN the right, they all seem to think they speak for the site they are on.
This is another very common dynamic that psychologists call "groupthink." Basically, "the group" reaches a consensus, whether logically defensible or not, and then "gangs up" on anybosy who has the temerity to challenge it or to express a contrary opinion.

Norm.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
What Norm wrote is correct but these problems aren't too hard to overcome. The real problems come from users who are Internet Savvy and can easily make it almost impossible to block this type of user.

The worst thing that can happen to a board or site that relies on advertising is to get a reputation as a "clique" site or to be allowed to become off topic throughout the board(s).

As an admin and a moderator trying to keep things on topic and to not allow the clique impression to develop is a hard job. Here we try to keep "non-cruise" related topics in the Chit Chat area. You will not believe some of the emails we get when a post is moved or deleted. People take it as a personal insult because their post was moved to the appropriate board or direct attacks are deleted. You do not want to lose your regulars but you also do not want to alienate the people looking for pertinent information.

Many regulars think they and other regulars are the only people reading or seeing their postings. This is completely wrong. Chit Chat here is a good example. It's a great place for people to keep up with each other but while it may have the most "posts" it is far from the most viewed. It is a major reason we made the request to keep postings on the cruise related boards on-topic and off topic postings would be removed and why cruise related postings may be moved from Chit Chat to the appropriate board. This simple request was met with some pretty nasty comments and a lot of discussion.

We have also had requests that certain people be removed from the boards because they make statements that go against the opinions of a group of regulars. We don't do that unless the postings are direct attacks, posted purely to agitate (hard to prove) or vulgar. When moderators start removing people because they disagree about a cruise line, port, or something political then you might as well shut the board down because it has become a "clique site".

There will always be trolls and the best thing to do is ignore them or use the "report this post" function, in the upper right corner of the posting, and just move on without responding.

Nothing is better than a lively discussion and we strongly encourage this but when it gets out of hand that's when we step in.

Take care,
Mike
Mike ..what an excellent post, that should be sent somewhere as a set of ethics for Administrators.
I have never come across a Mod who has admitted that cliques existed & that they are harmful, on a couple of UK cruise sites cliques run the sites, it appears they can say & do what they want, anyone who disagrees is the odd one out. Two sites are just one big clique, not private but may as well be!
Another very valid observation is that regulars think all posts are directed at them, which of course isn't true...BUT they mock things, saying you are repeating things or they all know the answers.
I strongly believe that threads MUST be kept on topic, if I come to a site to ask about say..dress codes I don't want to walk into something else..now doI?
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Old July 21st, 2011, 05:36 PM
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Mike,

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The worst thing that can happen to a board or site that relies on advertising is to get a reputation as a "clique" site or to be allowed to become off topic throughout the board(s).
Actually, there's one thing that's even worse -- moderators who banish posters who post accurate information that does not match their fantasies. A few months ago, I got banished from one site for posting the factual statement that a particular schismatic group is not in full communion with the Catholic Church due to theological error, backed up by a link to an official document in which the pope personally said so (which makes the fact pretty indisputable). Unfortunately, this reality did not match the fantasy of the owner and chief moderator of the site. When moderators of web sites react in that way, the affected sites cease to be reliable sources of information.

BTW, I'm refraining from naming both the web site and the owner who banished me because, as I see it, those who suppress truth that they find to be inconvenient are not reliable enough to be worthy of publicity.

Norm.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 06:23 PM
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I tried to post this earlier - but the post disappeared.

I don't give Trolls the oxygen of publicity.

Cliques are inevitable IMHO - I ignore them.

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Old July 21st, 2011, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
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Years before CM, there was a board that was infamous for flaming people for the simplest things.I used to say you need kevlar jackets to post there.

It's too bad, beacuse the good information got lost amongst the cliques, and, people did not want to ask questions, because they were intimidated by bullies.

Reading varying opinions is a good thing, and diveresity is welcome. No one can like everything, or everybody, but we strive to make this a welcoming board, with tons of information available
I remember that! I used to put on a "flameproof suit" every time I posted . Now I don't have to put on that suit!
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 06:16 AM
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I tried to post this earlier - but the post disappeared.

I don't give Trolls the oxygen of publicity.

Cliques are inevitable IMHO - I ignore them.

Annie
Easier said than done sometimes, easy to ignore them but if they pick on you as a target it gets unpleasant quickly.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 06:34 AM
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.

Reading varying opinions is a good thing, and diveresity is welcome. No one can like everything, or everybody, but we strive to make this a welcoming board, with tons of information available
This is indeed a friendly board, and everbody should feel welcome here.
Once in a while I see a post that irks me, but I just ignore it.
As for non-cruisers, we know what they are missing and they don't.

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