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Old October 21st, 2011, 07:36 PM
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Default Gadaffi

Any thoughts? I personally am not comfortable with summary execution, I know the man was a most unpleasant character, but for a 70 year old man who appears to be ''mentally challenged" to be dragged out, beaten up then murdered does not appear to be the act of a civilised nation.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 09:09 PM
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Any thoughts? I personally am not comfortable with summary execution, I know the man was a most unpleasant character, but for a 70 year old man who appears to be ''mentally challenged" to be dragged out, beaten up then murdered does not appear to be the act of a civilised nation.

I agree 100% but I fear we are in the minority .
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Old October 21st, 2011, 09:12 PM
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It definetely was not a civlilised act at all. That part of the world has a lot of issues to solve before they become stable.

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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:05 AM
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I agree it did not end well, but we can't really say, because we have not walked in their shoes.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:11 AM
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I agree it did not end well, but we can't really say, because we have not walked in their shoes.
I don't think we have to, right & wrong are impersonal surely?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:22 AM
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I agree with you John, but justice is different in that part of the world.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:32 AM
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Violence begets violence. A sad period in the history of Lybia came to a sad end.
Now let us hope that they move forward in a positive way. I wish the people of that region peace, prosperity and freedom.

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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:49 AM
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Justice?? pure revenge by a mob. Undoubtably an evil man but as I said unarmed, 70 years old, mad as a bucket of frogs & a prisoner.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 11:33 AM
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John, What do you think should have happened to him?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Exclamation Justice

Well, is invading a country with a highly armed team, when we are not at war, entering a private residence by force and shooting down an unarmed unconvicted man the act of a civilized nation? There are some places and some instances where the luxury of a developed justice system is not necessary.

I feel sure that Bin Laden and Qaddafi are exactly where they belong, marching along carrying signs that say "OCCUPY HELL"!!
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
John, What do you think should have happened to him?
Once captured, taken into legal custody & tried in a court of law. Beaten up & murdered in the street by a mob is not the way surely?
As for the Bin Laden thing, I just don't know, obviously invading a foreign country & murdering a person is an illegal act & no, not the act of a civilised nation...but had he been captured it would have led to all sorts of worse problems.
I am torn between what is right & civilised & what is practical.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 01:36 PM
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I am torn between what is right & civilised & what is practical.
When a group of people set out to murder innocent humans beings, ther is no vivilised way to deal with them.

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Old October 22nd, 2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
When a group of people set out to murder innocent humans beings, ther is no vivilised way to deal with them.

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There is law & order of course, summary execution of people suspected to be certain people just cannot be allowed to happen.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 02:31 PM
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I'm sorry, I am on the wrong thread. I thought we were talking about Qdaffey. He is the man that ordered flt 103 to crash. He is the one that had a statute built with a fist of a American jet fighter. He ordered, and saw young children Raped, and murdered, and then bragged about it.

He blew up a night club in Berlin, where people were killed. I could go on and on.

Oh yea, he should have been taken to court, tried by his pears. Crap, he had them killed, so okay a judge, crap, they were killed too. Now what? Let him go, because he was so misunderstood.

I wonder if I can get those rose colored glasses in my size?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 02:45 PM
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I don't think I said anything about letting him off, I think I said that murdering people in the streets is not a civilised way to carry on & the rule of law must prevail. Just think if it wasn't him but someone similar who was killed by the mob?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 03:23 PM
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There are many who believe (even those who fought the war) that the Nuremberg Trials were a travesty of justice and contrary to international law.

I happen to believe.......so what? At least they got a trial and were hanged. Ask yourself this question. Were the Jews liberated from Concentration Camps after years of torture, starvation and gas chambers wrong for turning on their captors and killing them (if they even were physically able)? I'm certainly not going to pass such judgement for were a human to do so who didn't go through years of such unmitigated horror in my opinion, borders on the absurd not to mention being "Holier than thou."

Ghadaffy did, in fact, do that to large segments of his population and did it repeatedly. It reminds me of that Florida Sheriff and his men, who, after surrounding a guy that was lower than whale poop who had just in effect, executed two of his deputies, put 47 rounds into the perp when he attempted to shoot them. When asked by some obviously either phenomenally ignorant, unconscious or inebriated reporter (take your pick)why it was necessary to shoot the man so many times replied, "That's all the bullets we had."

Finally, Rome, which put to death people for public entertainment was considered "civilized."

Nuff said?
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 03:42 PM
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I think we have moved on a bit since ancient Rome...
I completely agree that it is understandable to want to seek revenge on those who have wronged you....but that doesn't make it right to actually do so. On the BBC they interviewed some Libyans who wanted Gadaffi to be held to see what their country could become, altruistic maybe & him alive would cause more problems than it would solve. I suppose coming from a country where normal policemen are not armed & stopped executing people about 50 years ago I have a different view.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 04:40 PM
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John,

As regards "moving on" I would wish we had. But as events around the world continue to demonstrate, that is still very very much a work in progress.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 04:51 PM
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Todd...
We have moved on it's the rest!!
I look at these countries with the population acting like..well not animals, but you know what I mean, it seems some places are just simmering under the surface then the primitive side emerges but with modern weapons.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 11:35 PM
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A lot of people commit heinous crimes but are never arrested because of the norms of society .
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 12:06 PM
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These sorts of conundrums of what is right and wrong during the in extremis conditions of war, conflict, extraordinary civil strife and yes Todd, even police work, have always been and always will be the grist for ethics debates throughout the "civilized" world. There is nothing new in these situations.

The ultimate question is whether we let these extraordinary acts become the ordinary, either by law, edict, or just in a de facto way. That is the line we must guard against crossing. We should strive for perfection in honoring international humanitarian law, even though we know we will never achieve it. And we must not let the knowledge that we never will, or the examples that show that we have not, dissuade us from believing that we should do our best, because at the end of the day, that's what defines our humanity.

It is possible to understand these things without approving of them.

Way back in 1969 I was working for the Red Cross and was doing communication work during and after the devastating Hurricane Camille on the Gulf coast of Mississippi. A detachment of two helicopters and nine airmen had been assigned to us from Fort Bragg to fly food, medicine and other supplies to areas where the roads had been cut off by the storm. When there was room on one of the choppers I would tag along to do some filming and write human interest stories. I still see some of that film from time to time in the historical packages about Camille on The Weather Channel and other such outlets.

I got to be friends with these guys and wound up rooming for several nights with the young lieutenant who was head of the outfit. He told me that he'd only been back from Vietnam for a short while, and that it felt good to be flying missions to help people rather than hunt down bad guys. But he said he was going back because he'd left too many friends over there.

Late one night he told me the story of flying cover one day for a patrol that was working its way through the jungle. As the patrol crossed a makeshift bridge there was a huge explosion, the bridge was destroyed, and the patrol was lost. The lieutenant circled his machine and he caught sight of a figure in black pajamas running the other way carrying a plunger device. As he looked harder he realized that this was a kid, no more than 10 years old. He had to decide whether or not to shoot, and after a few seconds he blew the kid away. After telling me the story, he cried himself to sleep.

We agreed to keep in touch, and in a way, we do. Every time I visit a black granite wall a few miles from here, I touch his name.

You don't have to approve, but sometimes you have to understand.
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Last edited by AR; October 23rd, 2011 at 12:14 PM.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 12:32 PM
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A touching story...
I think anyone can understand why these things happen, I find though it is those who favour the more "direct action" that don't see the the other side.
My view is that is someone did something to me or "mine" I would have no problem whatsoever hunting them down & dealing with them, I also see that this is not right, legal nor civilised.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
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A touching story...
I think anyone can understand why these things happen, I find though it is those who favour the more "direct action" that don't see the the other side.
My view is that is someone did something to me or "mine" I would have no problem whatsoever hunting them down & dealing with them, I also see that this is not right, legal nor civilised.
I've posted this before but it bears repeating . In 1955 a friend of mine ,age 10 was murdered by 3 12 year olds solely because of his skin color .
In 1962 I was in a deserted part of NYC at about 1 AM and saw one of the 12 year olds who was then 19 walking on a dark street . I picked up a large rock from the street and walked behind the guy .I thought about using it but if I had how would I be any different from him .
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Old October 24th, 2011, 09:37 AM
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I'm sorry, I am on the wrong thread. I thought we were talking about Qdaffey. He is the man that ordered flt 103 to crash. He is the one that had a statute built with a fist of a American jet fighter. He ordered, and saw young children Raped, and murdered, and then bragged about it.

He blew up a night club in Berlin, where people were killed. I could go on and on.

Oh yea, he should have been taken to court, tried by his pears. Crap, he had them killed, so okay a judge, crap, they were killed too. Now what? Let him go, because he was so misunderstood.

I wonder if I can get those rose colored glasses in my size?
I live near Syracuse, NY. There were 25 Syracuse students on that flight, all with bright futures ahead of them. One of the students had gone to high school with my niece.

That being said, it doesn't justify what was done, but we realize it wasn't done in the US, and different countries live by different rules. I'm reminded of Italy when Mussolini was overthrown, and he was basically treated the same way. "Those who live by the sword..."
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Old October 24th, 2011, 09:43 AM
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I don't suppose we would have found out the truth had he gone to trial, but we certainly won't now. I wonder if the person or persons who killed him will face trial?
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Old October 24th, 2011, 10:37 AM
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I don't suppose we would have found out the truth had he gone to trial, but we certainly won't now. I wonder if the person or persons who killed him will face trial?
Found out WHAT truth? What do you want to know?

If we put a mad dog on trial will we find out exactly how many people it bit? We know it is mad and we know it bit people. So it dies.

Do you also wonder if the Navy Seals who killed Osama will face trial?

The answer is NO.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:17 AM
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The truth about all the things he was accused of, just because someone is accused of something it doesn't mean they did it/knew about it/ordered it. Wouldn't people have liked to have him answer questions about the Pan Am bomb? Good job it wasn't the wrong person they dragged out & shot in the street. At least the person/s who cold bloodedly murdered Gadaffi when he was in custody had some sort of right as they were Libyan presumably...the US action of invading a foreign country under force of arms to murder a non US citizen without benefit of trial is less clear, it can't be legal but what else could have been done I don't know.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:57 AM
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I think as a civilized western nation, we're trying to put our values on this where they really don't exist. As a parent of someone who was on that plane, or watched as he had my children or wife killed, or had to live under his dicatorship for 40 years, I'm sure I wouldn't be looking at it the same way as we are several thousand miles away and completely removed from that horror.

Do I think it was right to put a bullet through his head, probably not, but again, that's my western civilized brain at work. Am I glad he's dead? damn right.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 01:46 PM
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Yep,,,I sure am enjoying this "Cruise Talk". I personally, am about ready to give up on CruiseMates. So sad,,,it used to be really fun to come here, forget the troubles of the world, and talk about cruising.

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Old October 24th, 2011, 01:51 PM
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Yep,,,I sure am enjoying this "Cruise Talk". I personally, am about ready to give up on CruiseMates. So sad,,,it used to be really fun to come here, forget the troubles of the world, and talk about cruising.

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Do you lack the basic ability to overlook a thread that has no interest to you? can't really see how the title wasn't a give away.
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