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Old November 14th, 2011, 10:26 PM
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Now I understand that what I'm about to write will, quite possibly, upset some people. Therefore, let me make some qualifications.

CEO's have been known to destroy corporations, cost people jobs, etc. But in the main, true CEO's are diligent. They are extremely well educated, sometimes even start from the bottom rung of the ladder and pay their dues on the way up.

Let's take the CEO of IBM, a large multinational corporation that employes God only knows how many thousands of people and has to also account to the millions of shareholders of the stock at IBM. He makes in the neighborhood of 31 million a year and works an average of 70 or more hours a week...and that's a 52 week year!

Now, let's take the average NBA player. He has a college degree (even if he cannot only spell equalization, hell they can't even correctly define the word) and his average pay is 3.4 million dollars a year. The vast majority of NBA players natually make far more than 3.4 million dollars a years. Matter of fact many make ten million dollars a year more than the aforementioned IBM CEO and dozens make ten million more than that! Oh, and this doesn't include endorsements that raise their income to sometimes twice what they're paid by the NBA. Do they average 70 hours a week? You've got to be kidding!

I don't like basketball. Don't know why because I'm 6'4" and that used to be pretty tall back in my day but it didn't interest me so truth be told, I don't have a dog in this race. So, for the sake of arguement, the same goes for the NFL and the Professional Baseball Players Associations.

You want to know why I love NASCAR so much. One of the reasons is that to be successful, you have to win races........period! Without winning races, there are no endorsements, there is not an astronomical salary (if you think the average NASCAR driver makes 3.4 million a year all I say is...they're damned lucky). One of the highest paid drivers in NASCAR is Dale Earnhardt Jr. and he has his father's name to back him up. He makes about 20 million a year from all sources (including endorsements and investments).
Do I sympathize with the NBA Players Association? While I agree they undoubtedly have grievances, the short answer is.......NO!

Todd
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Old November 14th, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Todd, totally agree! Furthermore, someone should take the NBA Players Union to court charging them with discrimination. White and Asian players are under-represented in the union. All teams should be forced to have an ethnic mix "similar" to their local population base.
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Old November 14th, 2011, 10:59 PM
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Todd, totally agree! Furthermore, someone should take the NBA Players Union to court charging them with discrimination. White and Asian players are under-represented in the union. All teams should be forced to have an ethnic mix "similar" to their local population base.
That is a fantasy re an ethnic mix similiar to the population base .

I played organized basketball in the mid 60's . My team had one black player and 11 white .If I recollect the league had an average of one black player per team . Now its a complete reversal .
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Old November 14th, 2011, 11:00 PM
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Now I understand that what I'm about to write will, quite possibly, upset some people. Therefore, let me make some qualifications.

CEO's have been known to destroy corporations, cost people jobs, etc. But in the main, true CEO's are diligent. They are extremely well educated, sometimes even start from the bottom rung of the ladder and pay their dues on the way up.

Let's take the CEO of IBM, a large multinational corporation that employes God only knows how many thousands of people and has to also account to the millions of shareholders of the stock at IBM. He makes in the neighborhood of 31 million a year and works an average of 70 or more hours a week...and that's a 52 week year!

Now, let's take the average NBA player. He has a college degree (even if he cannot only spell equalization, hell they can't even correctly define the word) and his average pay is 3.4 million dollars a year. The vast majority of NBA players natually make far more than 3.4 million dollars a years. Matter of fact many make ten million dollars a year more than the aforementioned IBM CEO and dozens make ten million more than that! Oh, and this doesn't include endorsements that raise their income to sometimes twice what they're paid by the NBA. Do they average 70 hours a week? You've got to be kidding!

I don't like basketball. Don't know why because I'm 6'4" and that used to be pretty tall back in my day but it didn't interest me so truth be told, I don't have a dog in this race. So, for the sake of arguement, the same goes for the NFL and the Professional Baseball Players Associations.

You want to know why I love NASCAR so much. One of the reasons is that to be successful, you have to win races........period! Without winning races, there are no endorsements, there is not an astronomical salary (if you think the average NASCAR driver makes 3.4 million a year all I say is...they're damned lucky). One of the highest paid drivers in NASCAR is Dale Earnhardt Jr. and he has his father's name to back him up. He makes about 20 million a year from all sources (including endorsements and investments).
Do I sympathize with the NBA Players Association? While I agree they undoubtedly have grievances, the short answer is.......NO!

Todd

I cannot fathom how an athlete cannot live on a one million dollar per year salary .
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:46 AM
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I cannot fathom how an athlete cannot live on a one million dollar per year salary .
There's hundreds of thousands (in reality probably much more than that) of people making over $1 million dollars a year, who aren't athletes.

Should no one make more than that? What number is enough?

Some are rewarded for various types of talents, whether it's playing baskeball or selling CDs, or whatever. Different people admire different talents, and those who admire that talent and are willing to pay to experience it drive the markets.

Bizarrely we live in a world almost sickly devoted to admiring Celebrity, and any kind of celebrity gets at least temporarily rewarded with big pay days.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 10:45 AM
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They should dump all of them and start fresh and make it a one million dollar cap! People canít afford to feed their families and these guys are crying because multimillion dollar contracts arenít enough for them to live onÖ.please!

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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:10 AM
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:eek:The heads of the player's union dictated the terms and did not allow the union members as a whole to vote on the league's proposal. If they had, the strike would be over. There was a long article on today's sports page that discussed the matter in detail. The players do receive a lot of money, but their playing life can be very short as in many other professional sports. Unfortunately many do not know how to manage their income and end up virtually penniless. We Cruisemates members manage to live within our meager incomes. :eek::eek::eek::eek:
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:11 AM
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You would think that by now all the professional players associations of all the major sports would have figured out that in any work stoppage, it has been the players that are made to look like the villians. Every worknstoppage in the past 20+ years has been termed as "Millionairs vs. Billionairs" by the media. We've had work stopages in MLB, the NFL, the NHL and now the NBA, and in everyone the players were painted as "crybaby" millionairs by the media and the fans. This is why I don't understand why these players associations of all sports continue to think that they are going to win with a work stoppage. I know the NBA situation is a lockout, not a strike, like the recent NFL and NHL work stopages that were also lockouts. The owners of all the major sports will continue to lockout because they always seem to win.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:03 PM
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There's hundreds of thousands (in reality probably much more than that) of people making over $1 million dollars a year, who aren't athletes.

While I don't disagree with your point of view, your numbers are pretty far off for the US (don't know about Canada). There's a pretty wide swing in the estimates of those making over $1 million a year, because the top category reported by the IRS seems to be for $200,000-plus. However, the bottom estimate I've seen for $ 1million-plus is 80,000 people and the top is 160,000 people.

One thing I know for sure that is happening in the current tax debate is that huge numbers of people are confusing the concepts for $1 million or more a year with $1 million or more net worth.

While there are probably fewer than 200,000 people in the former category, there were about 3,000,000 people in the latter in 2009. Actually, that 3 million number defines what are now known as "HNWI," which stands for "high net worth individuals." The difference between this and the older term "millionaire," is that a HNWI is defined as someone who has a million dollars or more in investable assets over and above the principal residence. So to be a HNWI you have to back out the equity in your home (if any) from your net worth calculation. If that's over a million, you're a HNWI.

In round numbers, HNWIs represent about the top 1% of the population in net worth--probably a little less. This is a totally different thing than annual earnings. Those who make a million a year number less than one tenth of one percent.

As far as big money pro sports is concerned, it's tough to find a good guy anywhere. But, we keep buying the tickets (and the stadiums), and watching the TV broadcasts. Without those things, most of those guys would be selling used cars.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 01:27 PM
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Basketball is all about the players. They should be rewarded according to performence, as it is everywhere else. If they can get a 20-million payday good for them. People dont pay their good money to see some idiot CEO or team owner act up, even though they do act up sometimes.

If you want to exploit talent, eventually you gotta shaddap and pay the piper. Thats how America is suppossed to work. Cut the CEO salary if you need to save money, not the players $$$.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 03:49 PM
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I think it's amazing that both the owners and players might kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

Time is on the side of the owners. I am reminded of an old market truism. It doesn't matter if you have all the right information/made the right decision. The market can stay either overvalued or undervalued much longer than you can stay solvent. The owners can stay solvent much longer than the players.

Being a Dallasite, I loved the NBA last year. I hate to see what's happened, but I don't feel sorry for either side. A vindictive side in me want to see the league disbanded. Soccer will rule the airwaves in short order with the demographic shift in the south.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 09:01 PM
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There's hundreds of thousands (in reality probably much more than that) of people making over $1 million dollars a year, who aren't athletes.

Should no one make more than that? What number is enough?

Some are rewarded for various types of talents, whether it's playing baskeball or selling CDs, or whatever. Different people admire different talents, and those who admire that talent and are willing to pay to experience it drive the markets.

Bizarrely we live in a world almost sickly devoted to admiring Celebrity, and any kind of celebrity gets at least temporarily rewarded with big pay days.
Once again you are "reading between the lines" . I am not stating that people should have a ceiling on their earnings .I am saying that people who complain that they cannot live on one million a year are not living in reality .
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Old November 15th, 2011, 09:27 PM
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I couldn't care less if they NEVER return to play professional sports again. I certainly won't miss them.

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Old November 15th, 2011, 10:08 PM
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Once again you are "reading between the lines" . I am not stating that people should have a ceiling on their earnings .I am saying that people who complain that they cannot live on one million a year are not living in reality .

Sorry Henry, that's not what you said. You didn't say "people", you said athletes. And you said you couldn't fathom... nothing about people complaining....

So, I'm just reading what you actually said. Guess it wasn't what you were thinking though
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I cannot fathom how an athlete cannot live on a one million dollar per year salary .
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Old November 15th, 2011, 10:17 PM
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I couldn't care less if they NEVER return to play professional sports again. I certainly won't miss them.

"SKY"
Agree with you Sky!. I stopped watching baseball and haven't been to a game since strike in 97.
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:06 PM
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Sorry Henry, that's not what you said. You didn't say "people", you said athletes. And you said you couldn't fathom... nothing about people complaining....

So, I'm just reading what you actually said. Guess it wasn't what you were thinking though

"Athletes are people too"
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:06 PM
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However, the bottom estimate I've seen for $ 1million-plus is 80,000 people and the top is 160,000 people.
AR.. I was, of course, just guessing at actual numbers... though I have to say I'm surprised if it's that low.

But, if it is, it's amazing that the entire republican congress is balking at a tax increase that would affect so few
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:09 PM
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I couldn't care less if they NEVER return to play professional sports again. I certainly won't miss them.

"SKY"

There are pro basketball players in leagues who earn $3000 a month maximum .
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Old November 15th, 2011, 11:56 PM
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Interesting that this thread is up now. I just read an article about the generally miserable lives that pro athletes--and especially former pro athletes--live.

The article claims that 60% of retired basketball players go broke within 5 years of retirement, and 78% of football players within in 2! There are six reasons cited for this ridiculous state of affairs. The first one is obvious: frivolous spending. The others are bad investments, misplaced trust, divorce, children and entourage. Apparently the divorce rate is north of 60%, which isn't surprising since it's about 50% for the general population. But the "costs" are much higher for these guys.

They pose an interesting question: if you don't know how to make $1 million in a real-world marketplace, how can you expect to keep multi-millions? As Todd says, while lots of these guys went to college, the football and basketball players often were, shall we say, absent from most classroom activities. They generally do not have the skills to determine who is trustworthy, what differentiates a good investment from a bad one, how to do basic math, and all the rest.

These are not people I would ever envy. Of course it's also true that there's nobody I envy--it's bad for the soul.

As an aside, there are 1700 active NFL football players, 750 major league baseball players (for most of the season. The players brought up under the expanded roster rules late each season do not make a million bucks a year). And there are 432 NBA players. Add a few more for hockey and there are still only about 3000 major league sports players in the country, and not all of them make a million a year. It's really a pretty small number overall who get the really big bucks, not that it's justified of course. But by and large, they do not go on to live happily ever after.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 11:45 AM
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There are pro basketball players in leagues who earn $3000 a month maximum .
Yes, of course there are Henry. And there are minor league baseball players by the thousands, who are technically professional players, but who have to make ends meet by working at McDonald's during the day. That's why this discussion has centered on the NBA, the NFL and MLB.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 11:52 AM
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AR.. it's amazing that the entire republican congress is balking at a tax increase that would affect so few
Precisely.

The problem is that the "few" are all their friends and donors.

They usually invoke the canard that such a tax policy would hurt "small businesses." But of course, very few small businesses make a million bucks a year.

And a cynic might ask: "If a small business does make a million bucks a year, is it still small?"
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Old November 16th, 2011, 03:24 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, John Boehner, Speaker of the House has stated he is in favor of some tax hikes.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 04:55 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, John Boehner, Speaker of the House has stated he is in favor of some tax hikes.
Boehner is, and has been, and always will be in favor of whichever way the wind is blowing. In fairness, he's also at his core a little more moderate than the ultra-right crazies who are running the show, but he isn't smart enough or motivated enough to work his will. He is also notoriously lazy, and would much rather be on the golf course than working to reach solutions.

He is well known for sending up trial balloons just to see if they float. If they don't, he just shuts up. Such was the case with the blown "big deal" on tax/spending reform that he strung Obama along on a few months ago. When the Kantor and his acolytes yelped, Boehner just folded his tent and walked away, made no attempt to salvage anything.

He is also well known for bowing to special interests, most notoriously the tobacco lobby. He's the guy who actually passed out checks from the tobacco people to other House members who had supported smoking, and he did this right on the floor of the House. Later, he said that if he had it to do over, he probably wouldn't do it in the chamber itself.

What a guy! Who says he doesn't learn from his mistakes?!
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Old November 16th, 2011, 06:13 PM
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AR,

You're probably right because I don't follow such things as closely as do you.

But I have a question. It has been claimed that if Medicaide alone is set at 2007 levels and is increased henceforth only as much as inflation on an annual basis, then all of the current budget requirements in front of congress would be fulfilled.

What's your take on this.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 07:24 PM
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Precisely.

The problem is that the "few" are all their friends and donors.
That is so true. One term limit would be interesting. Double the length of duty and stagger the elections to keep a core 3/4ths.

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And a cynic might ask: "If a small business does make a million bucks a year, is it still small?"
I might be wrong on this one, but I think a business's size is determined by it's number of employees. That may be some old HR/EEOC experience creeping up on me.
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Old November 16th, 2011, 08:24 PM
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AR,

It has been claimed that if Medicaide alone is set at 2007 levels and is increased henceforth only as much as inflation on an annual basis, then all of the current budget requirements in front of congress would be fulfilled.

What's your take on this.
I haven't heard that claim and I have no idea. Medicaid, of course, consists of individual state-sponsored programs, not federal. But the federal budget does contribute to the states' Medicaid budgets. So would this mean that the federal contribution would be rolled back to 2007 levels and states would be told to make up the difference? Sounds like musical chairs offhand, but like I said I've never heard that proposal, so I don't know.

As a practical matter, it's a pay me now or pay me later proposition, because poor and indigent people are going to get sick, and are going to present at emergency rooms. Either there's money to pay for the medical care or there isn't. If there isn't, the options are to treat for free, or to turn people out.

Now, you did say Medicaid and I assume that's exactly what you meant. Medicare is a completely different proposition, as you know.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 08:14 PM
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Todd, totally agree! Furthermore, someone should take the NBA Players Union to court charging them with discrimination. White and Asian players are under-represented in the union. All teams should be forced to have an ethnic mix "similar" to their local population base.
Wouldnt you think that a team should be able to hire the best posable players that they can regardles of there race. Why should they be forced to have an ethnic mix similar to there local population that whole idea is silly if you think about it. Wouldnt you just try to get the best players for your team no mattrer what race they are? What diffrence does the color of there skin matter? They are there to play a game. I dont understand whar race has to do with it.? Get the best you can.As far as there salarys if the market supports it more power to them. Its no skin off my nose what a basketball player makes Cause I dont watch the sport.I think a lot of people are jealous. I dont care what they make not costing me any thing.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 09:40 PM
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Yes AR, I did say Medicaide and that is what I meant. No one, least of all yours truly, want the truly needy and sick to receive any lesser service than anyone else.

My only point is that if something is "free," people jump on the bandwagon. It's human nature. As I quoted the ER Nurses as saying, the wait in ER's is because of people who don't really need emergency treatment. For years (thank God it finally ended at least in NY)) my wife, who managed a large answering service, would get calls for an ambulance simply because it was a "free ride" to the hospital emergency room....even though there was absolutely no emergency involved. Yet the ambulances were then legally obligated to respond. In fact, what it boiled down to was that people were using ambulances as nothing more than a taxi service! For God's sake, they were calling amublances to take them to Doctor's appointments because they said they couldn't afford public transportation!!!!

Now get this. In at least one state the SEIU (The Service Employees International Union) is having their dues applied to individuals with sick children and indigents for HOME CARE!!!! Who pays? Not the government but the recipients of the service who already are caring for indigent and very ill children and family members!!!!! Does the level of care go up? Of course not! In many cases it's even reduced! Even one of the most Liberal of people on TV is outraged! This is what we've come too.

Where does it end? I for one haven't a clue.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc View Post
someone should take the NBA Players Union to court charging them with discrimination. White and Asian players are under-represented in the union. All teams should be forced to have an ethnic mix "similar" to their local population base.
Now, see, I don't use those emoticon thingies either, because I hope I'm usually able to say exactly what I want to say, and that if I'm being silly everybody will know that. I may be wrong about that sometimes, but such is my conceit.

So, I really hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you wrote this.
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 10:13 AM
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My only point is that if something is "free," people jump on the bandwagon. It's human nature.
Oh, absolutely. Emergency rooms (and the transportation to them) have been and will continue to be "the doctor of last resort" to anyone without the money or insurance to pay for their own care. But I can't see how cutting back Medicaid helps that situation; seems to me it would only make it worse. In any event, it is absolutely inhuman for the hospitals, the doctors and the patients to put emergency rooms in the position of refusing care. This is not to excuse sloth on the part of some patients, but there are others who truly have nowhere else to turn. Putting them out on the street flies in the face of everything medicine is supposed to be about.

I honestly couldn't quite grasp the SEIU business as you presented it, but it certainly sounds strange.
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