Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > People > Chit - Chat for Cruisers
Register Forgot Password?

Chit - Chat for Cruisers Open Forum for non-cruise posts. Please refrain from inflammatory rhetoric that could be considered offensive. We reserve the right to edit or delete for any reason.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2012, 04:54 PM
johnthed0g's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 2,651
Default So...you are on the bridge...

You are Staff Capt./1st officer & the Captain gives an order that you feel will endanger the ship, bearing in mind a ship at sea isn't a democracy, what do you do??? In the military I believe you can refuse an illegal order but a ship at sea?
__________________
Some answer questions...I also question answers
JTD 2010
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2012, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 18,930
Default

In the military that I was in, it could be pretty damaging to refuse an order.
I have no idea how that would work on a ship.

TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011
Independence of the Seas 12/29/2013 Top-notch!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2012, 05:26 PM
SSH SSH is offline
Junior Member
Familiar Face
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 11
Default

If it is something immediate, it is more challenging. You would probably want to state your opposition to the order - remember there is a black box recorder for all bridge communications. However I don't think disobeying it is really an option as the Master of the vessel is ultimately responsible. If you were incorrect and your way went wrong, or could be painted as causing something, then you'd really be in hot water.

If it is something more long-term, then you should reach out to shoreside, particularly if you know the fleet captain will support you. For instance, I am applying for positions as an environmental officer. EO's report to the Master but also have "dotted line" responsibility to the VP Environmental Compliance for each line so that they can supersede the Master if it is needed to avoid environmental damage and hefty fines.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default

What if a ships officer tells a passenger to do something but the passenger refuses to do it (Example -the passenger is told that she or he must go to a lifeboat and the passenger being of sound mind wants to remain on the ship)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2012, 11:10 PM
Member
Familiar Face
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 76
Default

I think I would risk my job and save lives and deal with the consequences later.....and I used to be a military brat and a military wife.....both from the US Navy. Saving lives is more important than worrying about your job.

Michelle
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Mike M's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 23,555
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
What if a ships officer tells a passenger to do something but the passenger refuses to do it (Example -the passenger is told that she or he must go to a lifeboat and the passenger being of sound mind wants to remain on the ship)
You would be put in the lifeboat by force. The decision to stay on the ship, when rescue is at hand, would be more than selfish. It would endanger the lives of others who would be required to try to rescue you. Even if you are of sound mind, suicide is not an option. Once rescued you can kill yourself, in the privacy of your own home, and not endanger others.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 09:25 AM
MercedMike's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,236
Question Disobeying an order

Both the military and Admiralty Courts (maritime law) teach that there is an obligation to disobey an illegal order (Nuremberg principle). Read Mutiny on the Bounty.

However, mutiny on a ship or land, or refusal to obey a lawful order in the presence of the enemy, is a capital offense. Refusal to obey a lawful order at sea would, at the very least, be the end of an officer's career.

So, the matter boils down to whether or not the order is lawful. If you choose to disobey an order you must be VERY VERY sure that through the years of court proceedings that will follow you will be decided to be in the right. Whether or not you win in court, your career at sea is probably over. You would have to make a decision in seconds that would affect the rest of your life.

In general, the presumption is that the senior officer has better judgement due to his long experience and training and the rigorous selection process. Read Mark Twain, Old Times on the Mississippi, where the cub pilot obeys an order to run the steamboat on to a reef. Turns out that the senior pilot recognized that the wind was causing the appearance of a reef, and from his long experience knew it was safe to run over it.
__________________
Mike

Check out our reviews and pics of our 41 cruises at
http://www.bully4.us/cruising.html
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 18,930
Default

If you disobey an order from a commanding officer in the military you better be 100% right, and be able to prove it.

TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011
Independence of the Seas 12/29/2013 Top-notch!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 12:25 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 651
Smile

Boy thats a tough one! I would hope I would have enough faith in my Captain that I wouldnt have to 2nd guess him.And if I didnt it might be time to find another ship.But I think I would follow his orders he is in charge and he might know something that you dont.And if everyone starts 2nd guessing everyone then there will be a break down in the system.And chaso may soon follow!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 01:21 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,449
Default

Seems to me that as a practical matter the captain will be giving minute-to-minute navigation orders to crew members who are FAR below him in rank, typically not to a staff captain or first officer. Most likely to the helmsman, who is far below him on the pecking order and who will pretty much never argue.

When the captain is not on the bridge, which is most of the time, the moment-to-moment operational orders are the responsibility of the officer of the watch, who has the captain's delegated authority to act for him.

With so many officers and bridge personnel of so many different ranks, all sorts of "what ifs" come to mind, none of them pleasant, none of them easy. I don't know how well these authority lines are defined, but it would be interesting to find out.

I do know that in the airline world it's a little easier because there are only two people who might be flying the plane at any given time. If the captain is flying he's basically carrying out his own orders (although the pilot not flying does execute some tasks). If the FO is flying, the captain will ordinarily only countermand what he's doing if he's really off-the-wall. Conversely, if the FO thinks the captain's orders are truly nuts he can always say (clearly for the benefit of the voice recorder) "Captain's airplane." Which means he's relinquishing his "pilot flying" status and handing the plane over to the captain. In that scenario he's not really disobeying the captain, he's just saying, in effect, "If that's what you want to do, you can do it yourself, Jack."

But to avoid anything like these situations the airlines have instituted something called "Crew resource management." It is a combination of rules and--significantly--attitude adjustment that has been part of pilot recurrent training for several years now. The goal is to take advantage of everyone's good minds in an intelligent way, to put aside the "my way or the highway" attitudes while at the same time not undermining the authority of the captain. It is explicit in extending the data gathering in serious situations beyond the two pilots, and makes appropriate use of flight attendants, pilots flying the jumpseat, and pilots in the cabin as appropriate. Naturally, in sudden, extreme situations decisions must still be made instantly, but in most cases problems can be diagnosed and analyzed with appropriate input from a number of sources.

To the extent there is a parallel, it seems clear that in the Costa case, the actions of the captain were deliberate, took some time to execute (pretty far off course), and could have benefited from the crew resource management concept. He could have asked the navigation officer if there were any hazards involved in his proposed course. He could have consulted other officers as to the wisdom of his plan. None of this would have involved his relinquishing his authority. It would just have been sensible crew resource management.

So, while as everyone here has said, the problem as presented in the OP is a "tough call," smart crews will work hard to make sure that these situations do not arise. Part of the solution is for captains to put their egos on hold while still exercising their leadership talents.

Make sense?
__________________
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. -- George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 01:39 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 651
Smile

Sure A.R but you did not answer the question.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 02:27 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee
Posts: 4,524
Default

According to witnesses at the table, the Captain was summoned to the Bridge several times but did not leave the table.

Both the Captain and the First Officer (2nd Captain) evacuated in the same Boat long before the passengers were all off. Both I believe are still under arrest.

Schettino refused a direct order from a Captain in the Coast Guard to return to his vessel to insure everyone that could, could get off safely and determine how many still had to evacute. He refused. The Coast Guard Captain then yelled at Schettino and said to the effect, "You are evacuating the ship and that means I am now in charge. Now get back on that ship, you #%@&%! This was caught on audio tape.
__________________
Todd
_______________
NCL Epic 2012, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2009, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2007, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2006, Eastern Caribbean
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 05:34 PM
AR AR is offline
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,449
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddDH View Post
"You are evacuating the ship and that means I am now in charge. Now get back on that ship, you #%@&%! This was caught on audio tape.
I hate to jump to conclusions but I think it's pretty clear that this guy's goose is not only cooked but burnt to a crisp.
__________________
The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. -- George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 05:52 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Greeneville, Tennessee
Posts: 4,524
Default

AR,

Truer words have never been spoken. Not to mention whether he does jail time or not, he will be shunned by those who make their living on the sea to such an extent he might find some peace and solace probably somewhere in the Sahara, if only from the camels 'cause they carry their own water.
__________________
Todd
_______________
NCL Epic 2012, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2009, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2007, Eastern Caribbean
Explorer of the Seas 2006, Eastern Caribbean
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 09:10 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default I disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
You would be put in the lifeboat by force. The decision to stay on the ship, when rescue is at hand, would be more than selfish. It would endanger the lives of others who would be required to try to rescue you. Even if you are of sound mind, suicide is not an option. Once rescued you can kill yourself, in the privacy of your own home, and not endanger others.

Take care,
Mike
If you recall your history passengers on the Titanic ,musicians , spouses ,etc ,chose to stay on the ship .
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2012, 11:51 PM
Mike M's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: You're Looking At Me
Posts: 23,555
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
If you recall your history passengers on the Titanic ,musicians , spouses ,etc ,chose to stay on the ship .
Henry,

Your example has nothing to do with your previous statement. These people stayed on the ship because there were not enough lifeboats and they just stayed because they couldn't go anywhere else.

In your previous statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43
What if a ships officer tells a passenger to do something but the passenger refuses to do it (Example -the passenger is told that she or he must go to a lifeboat and the passenger being of sound mind wants to remain on the ship)
If you are told to go to the lifeboat then there is a lifeboat and room for everyone. If the person elects to stay someone is either going to have to risk their life and go and get them or risk their life to haul their dead body out of the ship. As I said: If they want to commit suicide do it at home where someone doesn't have to risk their life to haul the body out.

We've gone far enough off topic.

Take care,
Mike
__________________
Cruisemates Community Leader/Moderator

"There is a great difference between being well traveled and just having been to many places." ~Me

"Fear is the assassin of dreams." ~Me
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old January 18th, 2012, 11:59 AM
MercedMike's Avatar
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,236
Question Off topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike M View Post

We've gone far enough off topic.
Mike, you are an admin so I guess you know the definitions.

But honestly I have seen a lot of threads wander off topic in my day and I don't see a single post here that is off the topic of command during emergencies at sea.

I think this has been a very interesting thread.
__________________
Mike

Check out our reviews and pics of our 41 cruises at
http://www.bully4.us/cruising.html
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old January 18th, 2012, 11:26 PM
Member
Familiar Face
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 76
Default

I agree, an interesting thread. As the days go by, we learn more and more about this tragedy. I hope they are able to find everyone that is missing, alive or not.....at least it helps the family in some sort of way.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2nd, captain, coast, costa, disobey, dosent, explicit, follow, guard, mates, prtical, responsability, schettino, sea, yelling

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Under the bridge Floridanamaw Carnival Cruise Lines 9 September 26th, 2007 10:03 PM
Bridge Tours?? Chaba112 Royal Caribbean International 5 August 4th, 2006 11:51 PM
A Bridge for Cruisers rollerdonna Chit - Chat for Cruisers 3 November 20th, 2005 11:37 AM
Bridge Cynda Royal Caribbean International 2 April 1st, 2005 07:02 AM
Help with Bridge Tours Mary Lou Scanlon Ask CruiseMates Staff 2 January 2nd, 2001 11:25 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:26 AM.
design by: Themes by Design

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1