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-   -   What is being poor? (http://www.cruisemates.com/forum/chit-chat-cruisers/389612-what-being-poor.html)

ToddDH May 27th, 2012 03:05 AM

What is being poor?
 
I just watched a program byJohn Stossel (not a right winger but rather a Libertarian). I learned the following:

44 % of Americans are classidied as "poor" because they make less than 22,000 dollars per year. A low sum, especially if you have children. Many of those receiving Public Assistance, however, if not more, own an automobile.

However, that sum does not include government assistance in the form of food stamps, cell phones, air conditioning, cable TV, etc.

There again, there are executives who live in enormouse homes with every conceivable amenity.

My question: What to you constittues poverty to the tune that whom do you consider should receive governmental (taxpayer) assistance, etc. and if so, what form of assistance that is not currently provided?

Lakers Fan May 27th, 2012 08:22 AM

Poor people
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ToddDH (Post 1430014)
I just watched a program byJohn Stossel (not a right winger but rather a Libertarian). I learned the following:

44 % of Americans are classidied as "poor" because they make less than 22,000 dollars per year. A low sum, especially if you have children. Many of those receiving Public Assistance, however, if not more, own an automobile.

However, that sum does not include government assistance in the form of food stamps, cell phones, air conditioning, cable TV, etc.

There again, there are executives who live in enormouse homes with every conceivable amenity.

My question: What to you constittues poverty to the tune that whom do you consider should receive governmental (taxpayer) assistance, etc. and if so, what form of assistance that is not currently provided?


Todd :

I worked for the NYC Department of Social Services and for the NYS Department of Labor and came across on an every day basis poor people . I also saw poverty first hand in your part of the world during my days with CORE .
The first thing I would do would be to bring home all the US troops from everywhere EXCEPT the US .Secondly I would close all the US military bases everywhere EXCEPT the US and use all that money to feel the hungry in this country .

I would hire people to revise the Food Stamp program because it is being abused so badly .I would hire people to revise Medicaid because of its abuses .

Dhill May 27th, 2012 11:09 AM

I feel if you are in this country illegaly there should be no public assistance! Public assistance to none U.S ctizens is costing the tax payers Billions of dollars a year.There is something wrong with the system when I can stand in the check out line in a store and watch a couple spend over $200.00 on grociers and pay with food stamps and then go out and get in a brand new Cadalac Escalade.In my opion if you are in this country ILLEGALY then you are a crimimnal! And I dont understand why more is not done about the laws that are being broken?I thought law enforcement were suppose to enforce the laws of the land not pick and chose which ones should be enforced!:shock::confused::confused:

Paul B May 27th, 2012 12:45 PM

Long ago when I was growing up, my father worked in a steel mill in Pennsylvania. My parents owned no stock nor had any savings in a bank.
We lived in a rented home and had one car on which we made payments each month and which usually fell apart about the time it was finally paid for. For entertainment at home, we had an AM radio and a scratchy phonograph. We had a coal stove in the kichen for heat and a couple of gas space heaters. My schools had no cafeteria , and my lunch was supplied from home. We had a family doctor who did everything the specialists now do and we had no medical insurance of any kind. There were no cell phones (Dick Tracy had a wrist radio), no computers, no internet, no supermarkets, no IPADS and no TV. I did have a used bicycle. We poor kids had to stay healthy and thin and play outside.

We thought that we were middle class and didn't know that we were poor. We were happy to have our families and plenty to eat. These were the good old days.

balabusta May 27th, 2012 02:24 PM

Paul, well put. I really think that being poor "is a state of mind". If one is wealthy and doesn't have happiness in their life, to me they are poor. When one looks at the majority of the other countries, around the world, where they literally have to "fend for themselves" without any government assistance, they are "poor in finances" but not "poor in spirit". I believe that too much "financial assistance" is given out in the United States to people who are "abusing the system". I am a firm believer in Keynesian economics, which was used widely during Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency. Let the government spend money on "jobs, jobs, jobs" to put people "back to work". They will then "earn their money" and "spend it" so it will help other people. Public assistance, like unemployement and disability should only be given to those that really need it!

belgique May 27th, 2012 11:33 PM

Being "poor" is not being loved. When you take that to it's logical conclusion, and consider that being loved consists of food, shelter, clothing, health care, peace of mind, security, having dreams, not living in fear, living in freedom, it all adds up to:

"Being poor is not being loved".

Lakers Fan May 28th, 2012 09:57 AM

There are millions of poor people that are loved by their family members but not by the leaders of the country they reside in .

anniegb May 28th, 2012 10:26 AM

Hello Todd

I hope you are well.

A couple of questiond from a curious Scot:

Is the $22K per capita? and how much would medical insurance cost?

Annie

MercedMike May 28th, 2012 01:34 PM

Poor?
 
What is poor?

We have had the immense good fortune to be so amazingly rich that we are able to cruise to foreign countries and see what it means to be POOR.

We stood in front of the pyramids in Egypt. This little girl was standing in the hot sun selling bookmarks to tourists for a dollar. Clearly she had no chance for an education or to go to school because her family needed the few dollars she came home with. But look at the big smile on her face. I gave her an extra dollar for helping me arrange that headdress. What generosity from a fabulously wealthy man!

http://www.bully4.us/egB12.jpg

In Madagascar, this young boy living in a tin hut in a muddy village had a chameleon on a stick. The rich American gave him a whole dollar to take a picture of it. I wonder how long that fed his family?

http://users.elite.net/thehalls/pp9.GIF

On the Amazon river, their father paddled these children out to our boat in a canoe. Another dollar from my unlimited pocket. I am sadly afraid that Daddy spent the dollar in the bar on the hilltop of their village.

http://users.elite.net/thehalls/am3.GIF

My friends, these people are POOR! The thought of making $1000 a year, not to even dream of $22,000, would thrill them. They live in houses with mud floors and pee in a hole in the ground behind it. They subsist from meal to meal on what they can catch or find in the forest. They have only one set of clothes on their backs. The danger of starvation is just around the corner. Disease carries away 4 out of 5 of their children.

And I show up with clean clothes, sunglasses, a camera around my neck, and a pocketful of dollar bills, well fed and healthy. How rich and blessed am I!

Being fabulously rich means having a safe and comfortable place to live, food to eat at every meal, and access to decent medical care. Extensive poverty like we saw in those countries is almost non existent in the US. Most of what the government does is simply a matter of redistributing our overwhelming wealth to those who are less wealthy.

Lakers Fan May 28th, 2012 02:01 PM

To Merced Mike:

Since you are very rich why not start your own cruise line ?

MercedMike May 28th, 2012 02:40 PM

Wealth
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry43 (Post 1430182)
To Merced Mike:

Since you are very rich why not start your own cruise line ?

Ah, now that requires being so fabulously wealthy that you not only have a safe place to live, food at every meal and medical care, but also money to gamble with! :D

Luanne Russo May 28th, 2012 04:59 PM

Thank you Mike for your thoughts. You remined all of us what truely poor is.

Manuel May 28th, 2012 05:16 PM

Being poor is living in a house with no electricity, no running water and eating very meager meals.
Having no snacks in the house and only the basic clothes to wear.
When I was a kid, I did live like that.
It sure makes me apreciate what I have today.

TM

belgique May 28th, 2012 11:48 PM

Mike's answer is the best. I DO feel guilty when visiting some of the countries I do. I know there is NO future for so many of the people, and here I am, arriving on a floating palace.

I am annoyed when people barter in these places. I know it's expected and a game of sorts, but it usually involves less than $5.00. The price of a beer? A couple of Diet Cokes?

Any of us on this forum are extremely fortunate. In over 35 cruises, I still find a quiet spot within the first hour onboard and give thanks - a middle-class child of Belgian immigrants to Detroit - cruises were for movie stars and royalty, and yet, here I am.

We have to be thankful that fate chose us and help others when and wherever we can.

ToddDH May 30th, 2012 08:58 PM

Annie,

A truly good Health Insurance policy in this country is very expensive for those below 65 years of age. My brother and his wife just moved back to the British Isles (Isle of Man) and now have free health care. The thing is, that level of health care often does not either approach what is available in this country or even when it does, the wait to receive such care would be completely unacceptable to the average American.

For instance, hearing aids in this country are not free and the good ones cost thousands of dollars whereas the ones in GB are free. The problem is that my sister in law (who is from the Island) refuses to get them because the fidelity is so horrendous all she hears is loud noise.....she still cannot understand people conversationally. I compare what she is talking about to the early hearing aides in this country that my Grandmother used back in the late 50's.

On the other hand, I've a relative by marriage who had very complicated brain surgery and it didn't cost him a cent. They even flew him for free from the island to the mainland for treatment and follow-ups. It works pretty well for the British simply because it's the only system they've ever known. The cost is covered by a VAT (what many in this country would call a sales tax). Nonetheless, even the cost of health care in Europe has exploded exponentially to the point that in many if not most English hospitals there are still multiple bed wards whereas the trend in this country is from semi-private (two to a room) to individual rooms for the simpletst of reasons (even though it took the "experts" decades to accept as common sense). Why? Simply because with multiple patients with multiple problems, the spread of disease is a a constant problem and significant threat.

In any event by law, no Public Hospital in this country (meaning probably 98% or more of them) cannot refuse to treat any patient because of their inability to pay. Your average wait for treatment in most municipal Emergency Rooms (even though they use triage) is now EIGHT HOURS! The people most up in arms are.....now get this....the ER physicians and nurses! They will tell you that the overwhelming number of people who visit Emergency Rooms don't have true emergencies but they know they won't have to pay if they go to a hospital!!!!!!

Don't know what the answer is but we'd best find one and find it soon.

Fieldmouse May 31st, 2012 10:59 AM

When we traveled to Asian and Mexico we got an instant education about what the words, 'Third world country' mean. To us, who were not then travel harden, these people were shockingly poor...but lately I've seen in our part of the U.S.A. the raise of the 'new poor'.

Families one step away from living in their cars because one or both parents can't find a job.

Mounting medical bills wiping out someones meager savings.

Elderly that make the daily choice of eating or buying necessary medication.

Too many sad stories to recount...but it's happening here too.

Lakers Fan May 31st, 2012 11:09 AM

I've been to parts of South America where there are McDonalds on almost every street corner and the kids walk around without shoes .America is trying to nationalize the world .

anniegb May 31st, 2012 11:59 AM

Todd

You have described the NHS system as it operates in England and Wales. I can only say we operate the NHS differently in Scotland.

So back to your OP, if 'poor' in US is defined as having an annual income of less than $22K and if you are younger than 65, how much would your Annual Healthcare premium be?

FYI I could purchase full private coverage I think for $2K per annum; I am 60 next birthday.

Annie

anniegb May 31st, 2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry43 (Post 1430551)
.America is trying to nationalize the world .

Really???

How much has the US borrowed from China ?

Annie

Lakers Fan May 31st, 2012 01:58 PM

OOps
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anniegb (Post 1430563)
Really???

How much has the US borrowed from China ?

Annie


That should have read the THIRD world

Paul B May 31st, 2012 05:35 PM

Henry, America doesn't nationalize anyone. It is pure capitalism. If MacDonalds and other US corporations didn't supply a product that people wanted, they wouldn't exist anywhere. Viva Capitalism!!!!!

Lakers Fan May 31st, 2012 08:07 PM

To me there is something wrong in seeing an american fast food restaurant on virtually every street in a country in which there is dire poverty .

Kuki May 31st, 2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry43 (Post 1430631)
To me there is something wrong in seeing an american fast food restaurant on virtually every street in a country in which there is dire poverty .


Right! They should be kept only in areas of America where there is dire poverty :wink:

Lakers Fan May 31st, 2012 08:57 PM

Kuki
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuki (Post 1430638)
Right! They should be kept only in areas of America where there is dire poverty :wink:


IMHO the majority of fast food restaurants are "killing " people by serving unhealthy foods .

I personally would like to see them out of America .

I know you have been to Bermuda .There are no fast food restaurants there other than one isolated KFC .
America should follow their example .

buttons16 May 31st, 2012 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry43 (Post 1430645)
IMHO the majority of fast food restaurants are "killing " people by serving unhealthy foods .

I personally would like to see them out of America .

I know you have been to Bermuda .There are no fast food restaurants there other than one isolated KFC .
America should follow their example .

Its not just fast food restaurants...Look at the content of most frozen foods...Loaded with sodium, one of the most unhealty things you can eat.

Most restaurants including white table cloth restaurants serve unhealthy food, they all cook with huge amounts of sodium (not including health food places).

Look at soup can in the supermarket...hundreds of mg of sodium.

One major way the food companies trick you is the amount of servings in an item....If there is 2 servings in a can of soup then the sodium is doubled.

My wife and I eat very low sodium diets, we don't drink any sugary drinks period. We both work out each and every day no matter how tired we are from work. I use to weigh 290 lbs and only 5' 11 inches. after exercising for one year now and eating a low sodium diet I weigh in at 170 lbs.

The real problem is that most people like flavorful food, and that means to most people that salt is included in almost everything they eat. Salt or sodium is a water retainer. It absorbs what you ingest and stays in your system.

If you are seroius about staying healthy them their is not magic pill you can take, no cleansing solutions will help, I have studied this intensly.

The key is as simple as it can be if you really want to be healthy.

Never eat 2 hours or less before bed time.

you must eat at a portion control level.

you must reduce intake of sugar.

reduce intake of sodium.

reduce intake of starch such as white bread and pasta...whole grain bread is better then whole wheat bread.

exercise regulary, I exercise a min of 1 hour per day.

Nutra system is a great diet to follow...that diet really works.

I eat what I want one day a week....

If you follow these basic steps you have to lose weight....by following the above it will control diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease and you will feel and look great.

So I disagree that fast food outlets are killing people...thats like saying a gun kills people...NO, its the person pulling the trigger or walking into that burger joint...you cannot shift blame to a fast food chain, most people understand that fastfood is unhealthy, but most people like the taste and take their chances. In order for the above to work you have to want to do it, and you have to have the will power to continue to do it even after you come down to your weight goal.

Lakers Fan May 31st, 2012 09:43 PM

I agree in part
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by buttons16 (Post 1430649)
Its not just fast food restaurants...Look at the content of most frozen foods...Loaded with sodium, one of the most unhealty things you can eat.

Most restaurants including white table cloth restaurants serve unhealthy food, they all cook with huge amounts of sodium (not including health food places).

Look at soup can in the supermarket...hundreds of mg of sodium.

One major way the food companies trick you is the amount of servings in an item....If there is 2 servings in a can of soup then the sodium is doubled.

My wife and I eat very low sodium diets, we don't drink any sugary drinks period. We both work out each and every day no matter how tired we are from work. I use to weigh 290 lbs and only 5' 11 inches. after exercising for one year now and eating a low sodium diet I weigh in at 170 lbs.

The real problem is that most people like flavorful food, and that means to most people that salt is included in almost everything they eat. Salt or sodium is a water retainer. It absorbs what you ingest and stays in your system.

If you are seroius about staying healthy them their is not magic pill you can take, no cleansing solutions will help, I have studied this intensly.

The key is as simple as it can be if you really want to be healthy.

Never eat 2 hours or less before bed time.

you must eat at a portion control level.

you must reduce intake of sugar.

reduce intake of sodium.

reduce intake of starch such as white bread and pasta...whole grain bread is better then whole wheat bread.

exercise regulary, I exercise a min of 1 hour per day.

Nutra system is a great diet to follow...that diet really works.

I eat what I want one day a week....

If you follow these basic steps you have to lose weight....by following the above it will control diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease and you will feel and look great.

So I disagree that fast food outlets are killing people...thats like saying a gun kills people...NO, its the person pulling the trigger or walking into that burger joint...you cannot shift blame to a fast food chain, most people understand that fastfood is unhealthy, but most people like the taste and take their chances. In order for the above to work you have to want to do it, and you have to have the will power to continue to do it even after you come down to your weight goal.

I do not drink alcohol ,soda or juice .
I begin my day with the juice of 1/2 lemon mixed with boiled water
I do not eat white flour and therefore do not eat rye or white bread.I eat spelt bread with 2 tablespoons of all natural almond or cashew butter . I end my meal with a cup of decaffinated herbal tea .
After breakfast I go to the gym for one to two hours 7 days a week.

If there were no fast food stores people would not be looking for them .I grew up in a time when there were only 2 fast food chains .Now there are thousands .

buttons16 May 31st, 2012 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry43 (Post 1430651)
I do not drink alcohol ,soda or juice .
I begin my day with the juice of 1/2 lemon mixed with boiled water
I do not eat white flour and therefore do not eat rye or white bread.I eat spelt bread with 2 tablespoons of all natural almond or cashew butter . I end my meal with a cup of decaffinated herbal tea .
After breakfast I go to the gym for one to two hours 7 days a week.

If there were no fast food stores people would not be looking for them .I grew up in a time when there were only 2 fast food chains .Now there are thousands .

If there were no fast food stores people would not be looking for them...Well isnt it about supply and demand...people do look for them so there are fast food stores...people do eat frozen food and soups loaded with sodium which is why that food exists...so who to blame the fast food store selling garbage or the ADULT on his own free will walking into a fast food restaurant...The adult who walks into a fast food restaurant on his own free will is to blame...The so called parent who walks his or hers child into one of these garbage places is to blame. Other then a thyroid problem (seems like everyone who is over weight blames it on a thyroid condition) when you see a kid who is 12 years old and weighs 150 lbs more often then not the parents are fat also.

As far as food. for breakfast I eat plain Cheereos no milk an Orange and a cup of green tea. Lunch is a Nutra System portioned control meal with a cup of Seltzer and a cup of green tea. For dinner is another orange and a Nutra System meal with Decaf Tea. Every single day. On either Sat or Sun I eat out in a restaurant sometimes Japanese hibachi, Itialian or in a steak house.

My weight has been steady with no weight gain or loss...blood pressure is in the area of 110/70. My pressure use to be 150/95 before I decided to take control of my life style.

Lakers Fan June 1st, 2012 11:07 AM

Blood pressure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by buttons16 (Post 1430654)
If there were no fast food stores people would not be looking for them...Well isnt it about supply and demand...people do look for them so there are fast food stores...people do eat frozen food and soups loaded with sodium which is why that food exists...so who to blame the fast food store selling garbage or the ADULT on his own free will walking into a fast food restaurant...The adult who walks into a fast food restaurant on his own free will is to blame...The so called parent who walks his or hers child into one of these garbage places is to blame. Other then a thyroid problem (seems like everyone who is over weight blames it on a thyroid condition) when you see a kid who is 12 years old and weighs 150 lbs more often then not the parents are fat also.

As far as food. for breakfast I eat plain Cheereos no milk an Orange and a cup of green tea. Lunch is a Nutra System portioned control meal with a cup of Seltzer and a cup of green tea. For dinner is another orange and a Nutra System meal with Decaf Tea. Every single day. On either Sat or Sun I eat out in a restaurant sometimes Japanese hibachi, Itialian or in a steak house.

My weight has been steady with no weight gain or loss...blood pressure is in the area of 110/70. My pressure used to be 150/95 before I decided to take control of my life style.

My blood pressure reading is always 120/70 or in the vicinity .

I also meditate every day .

anniegb June 1st, 2012 11:53 AM

Sorry

Have I missed something? The topic of this thread - what is poor?

BTW my BP is 117/47 :)

Annie

anniegb June 1st, 2012 11:59 AM

Congrats on the weight loss but what has that to do with the subject of the thread?

Annie


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