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Old June 5th, 2012, 06:57 PM
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Default College Costs: Doing the Math

About two weeks ago The Washington Post had an interesting article that noted the alarming increase in college dropouts. The article pointed out that a lot of these people who leave college are in for a double whammy: they don't have their diploma but they still have their college loans to pay off. Bad way to start out life.

Within a couple days of seeing the article I was chatting with my old college pal Earle. He asked if I'd seen the latest tuition figure for our alma mater. I told him I hadn't. He said that it is now $43,380 per year for tuition, exclusive of room, board, books, fees, and all the rest.

Earle and I graduated from that school in 1967. At the beginning of our junior year there was great consternation when the tuition was raised from $1,500 a year to $1,800. OK, OK, that was a long time ago, so I did the math.

I put $1,800 into an inflation calculator for the year 1967. The inflation-adjusted amount today turns out to be $12,400. In other words, something you could buy for $1,800 in 1967 should cost $12,400 today when inflation is factored in.

But our school doesn't. It costs $43,380. That is three and one half times the inflation adjusted price that I paid. Not three and one half per cent more, three and one half TIMES more.

Mind you, that $1,800 back in the sixties didn't seem cheap, but at least it was doable. My parents scraped together most of it, and I took out a loan for my senior year, which I repaid in a few years after school.

My friend called because he'd just been solicited by the school to give a large donation. He declined, noting that the tuition charged should be ample for anything they need to do.

Yes, I know that very few people pay the list price. I did back then, and Terry and I paid the list price for both of our kids to go to private universities. I'm not sure we could do it today, but at least we were able to set them off on their lives with no debt.

There's been talk on this board about health care costs. This college stuff is just as insane, if not more so.

So it's bad news on all fronts: college dropouts are up, and one of the reasons is that some kids can't afford to take on any more debt. They're stuck with their existing debt and no diploma, and the nation is stuck with another young promise unfulfilled.

And the schools, well they're just fine thanks. The alums are mostly happy as long as they win those football and basketball games.

And hell, my old school can't even do that!
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Old June 5th, 2012, 08:55 PM
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The college that I graduated did not charge tuition when I began my freshman year .The next year it was $8 .
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Old June 5th, 2012, 08:58 PM
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One of the many reason's college tuition goes is the salaries paid the professors . They now are paid about $200K per year. Don't forget insurance , medical and especially computers.
When I graduated college in 1973 computers weren't being used at all. The fanciest technology was the simple calculator . Most of of our calculations where done on paper with a pencil and slide ruler (ancient calculator).
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Old June 5th, 2012, 10:30 PM
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The college that I graduated did not charge tuition when I began my freshman year .The next year it was $8 .
Did they let you pay with beads and shells, Henry? Do you reckon you got your money's worth?

One thing's for sure: if you didn't pay, somebody else did.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 10:43 PM
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One of the many reason's college tuition goes is the salaries paid the professors . They now are paid about $200K per year.
No they're not, not typically anyway. The median salary for a full professor in liberal arts today is about $80,000. To get in the $200,000 range you have to be well into the top five percentile of all full professors.

Now, it's certainly true that top schools pay their faculties better, but it's very misleading to imply that $200,000 is the norm.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 11:47 PM
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Did they let you pay with beads and shells, Henry? Do you reckon you got your money's worth?

One thing's for sure: if you didn't pay, somebody else did.
Nobody paid tuition . Yes I got my "money's " worth .I graduated with a 3.59 GPA with a dual major of Psychology and Sociology and a minor in English .

Graduate school was $40.00 per credit .
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Old June 6th, 2012, 12:37 AM
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Nobody paid tuition . Yes I got my "money's " worth .I graduated with a 3.59 GPA with a dual major of Psychology and Sociology and a minor in English .

Graduate school was $40.00 per credit .
Henry, please stop. You're about to hijack yet another thread and I'd really prefer it if you wouldn't do that. I shouldn't have responded to your first answer and I shouldn't be responding to this one, because I know it'll just set you off down your merry road of free association again.

But please, the subject of the thread is the unjustifiable increases in college costs over the years, not the fact that you got to go to college for free (or more accurately, on somebody else's nickel), or what a brilliant student you were.

Please give us a break. Thanks.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 02:37 AM
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My youngest, Kuki Jr. attended college in Arizona (for three year).. just recently. Total cost for his 3 years there .. cost me approx $225,000K.

Of course 50K per yr of that went to hire illegal immigrantss to write his papers, and cut his lawn.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:26 AM
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AR,

I agree that prices of higher education have gone skyward. I can see no justification for the higher prices, but hopefully soon, someone will take them to task.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:40 AM
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My son will be going into his junior year of high school and we’ve as well as his AVID classes have been looking at collages & universities. He’s been to Loyola $36,000 a year as well as University of Il Chicago campus for around $17, 00 0 per year. We knew the cost for collage and this was one reason we decided to go with public grammar & high school for him, this way we can pay for college and he will graduate without student loans as long as it’s at the lower end of cost. There’s no way we could pay $36.000 a year and quite frankly where you go to school isn’t as important as it once was. You have kids from top collages who can’t find jobs these days. There’s no doubt he will attend a public university because of cost but it does give us peace of mind knowing he won’t be graduating with debt. I don't know how students can do it unless money is no issue for them. Sometimes I think there are just too many kids going to collage than in the past and the system is just taking advantage of it. Even your trade schools are expensive.

The Catholic high school would have cost us $12.000 a year,$46.000 for four years of high school!
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:59 AM
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Our DS & DD went thru university with out any student loans. They paid about $2500 per semester or $5000 per schools year. Also about $100 per year for books that where different each year .
They where lucky the my parents put money aside for their education from the day they where born . Both where expected to work during the summer as well to pay for their expenses ( car , gas etc) . Both lived at home rent free.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 11:02 AM
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Henry, please stop. You're about to hijack yet another thread and I'd really prefer it if you wouldn't do that. I shouldn't have responded to your first answer and I shouldn't be responding to this one, because I know it'll just set you off down your merry road of free association again.

But please, the subject of the thread is the unjustifiable increases in college costs over the years, not the fact that you got to go to college for free (or more accurately, on somebody else's nickel), or what a brilliant student you were.

Please give us a break. Thanks.
I think you are on acid ,I responded .I did not hijack

I am a graduate of Brooklyn College . Tuition was free when I began my education .By my senior year I believe it was $25 per credit .

I can document everything I have said on these boards .If you want to challenge me on anything I've said feel free to do so .
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Old June 6th, 2012, 11:31 AM
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I think you are on acid ,I responded .I did not hijack

I am a graduate of Brooklyn College . Tuition was free when I began my education .By my senior year I believe it was $25 per credit .

I can document everything I have said on these boards .If you want to challenge me on anything I've said feel free to do so .
Henry... I think you miss AR's point. The topic he was looking to discuss when he posts was the high costs of going to college today. He waw never asking you, or anyone else what you might have paid for college when you attended.

Any opinion on the astronomical cost of college for today's students, and how they might be able to deal with it?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 11:52 AM
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Default UK potential students are doing the Maths

The UK government recently introduced higher fees for degree courses in England. (Yeah, Scotland and Wales are different )

Bottom line is that there has been a decease of 50,000 in undergraduate applications received.

Explanation: UK graduates struggle to obtain work and the nett increase in projected earnings over a lifetime is not worth the cost.

Annie

PS there are the usual exceptions like medicine.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 11:52 AM
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My first round at college was 1975 to 1978 and the tuition cost was about $2800/year at the University of Minnesota. I worked multiple jobs to pay the tuition and go to school. I then got this great job as a computer operator and was making so much money and advancing so quickly that I stopped college. Five years later I was in line for a promotion and was told that I was a shoe in until they found out I didn't have my degree. I went back and finished my degree at a small college in Alabama. The cost was $1700. Fifteen years later I was in line for another promotion but was bypassed because I didn't have a graduate degree. I went back and earned my MBA. The cost of that was around $45,000. I was lucky and grateful that the company picked up the tab.

My son went to the University of Alabama Birmingham in the mid-90's and his tuition cost was around $6000/year. That did not include room and board.

My daughter started college at the University of Minnesota in the early 90's and the cost was around $12,000. She was able to finish her requirements for vet school in 2.5 years so that was good. However, vet school was around $45,000/year. Now it is over $60,000/year.

I started cruising right after she graduated from vet school. After paying for all that education I finally had some money to spend.

I am also inundated by "alumni" donation requests from my schools and my kids schools. I'm sorry but I never really developed a "loyalty" to any of the schools. I went for an education and not a social experience. I believe tuition and some state subsidies should pay the costs. I won't contribute for a new sports stadium on a college campus.

What concerns me is that a college degree today is what a high school diploma was 40 years ago. It is what you must have for a large number of jobs. I have seen companies bypass talented people in the IT area because they didn't have a four year degree and then hire someone, far less capable, for the same position, because they had a four year degree in Philosophy or Sociology.

The other concern is that we are no longer putting the emphasis we need on the "trades". The plumbers, electricians, carpenters, construction workers and others are what we really need in order to build and rebuild but many people look upon these people as second class. Sorry, without them you wouldn't be reading this right now, driving your car or turning on the light switch.

Take care,
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Old June 6th, 2012, 02:30 PM
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But our school doesn't. It costs $43,380. That is three and one half times the inflation adjusted price that I paid. Not three and one half per cent more, three and one half TIMES more.
That may be the published tuition, but most private schools today don't actually charge the published tuition for many students. They counter that crazy tuition by providing generous financial aid grants -- effectively reducing the tuition.

For example, the figures below come from a quick cut-and-paste from my own alma-mater's website, and I believe this level of aid is typical among private schools today.

PROFILE OF 2010-11 FINANCIAL AID

Freshmen
Financial Aid Applicants 934 (58.4%) of freshmen
Found to Have Financial Need 810 (86.7%) of applicants
Received Financial Aid 806 (99.5%) of applicants with financial need
Need Fully Met 806 (100.0%) of aid recipients
Average Percent of Need Met 100%
Average Award $42,397

Need-Based Gift
Received by 710 (88.1%) of aid recipients, average amount $37,174
Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 405 (50.2%) of aid recipients, average amount $2,243
Merit-Based Gift
Received by 469 (58.2%) of aid recipients
Merit-Based Gift Received by 116 (7.3%) of freshmen without need, average amount $19,663

All Undergraduates
Financial Aid Applicants 3,609 (52.8%) of undergraduates
Found to Have Financial Need 3,232 (47.2%) of applicants
Received Financial Aid 3,227 (99.8%) of applicants with financial need
Need Fully Met 3,227 (100.0%) of aid recipients
Average Percent of Need Met 100%
Average Award $41,835

Need-Based Gift
Received by 2,944 (91.2%) of aid recipients, average amount $36,352
Need-Based Self-Help
Received by 1,904 (59.0%) of aid recipients, average amount $2,601
Merit-Based Gift
Received by 1,524 (47.2%) of aid recipients
Merit-Based Gift Received by 606 (8.9%) of undergraduates without need, average amount $22,182
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Old June 6th, 2012, 04:44 PM
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What drives me crazy in California is AB 540 Session 2001/2002.

"An alien student who is without lawful immigration status must file an affidavit with the college or university stating that he or she has filed an application to legalize his or her immigration status, or will file an application as soon as he or she is eligible to do so."

This means are illegal alien students can pay in state tuition. However, someone from Nevada would pay the higher out of state tuition. Because the costs are lowered to illegal alien students this causes the costs to go up for everyone else. Because as my economics class taught me there is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay the difference.

AR if the college you attended was in California this may account for the extra costs that inflation rate adjustment isn't capturing.

BTW alien Student are not my words they come for the bill. It's strange phrasing to me.

http://www.csulb.edu/depts/enrollmen...ion_exempt.pdf
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Old June 6th, 2012, 04:51 PM
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My youngest, Kuki Jr. attended college in Arizona (for three year).. just recently. Total cost for his 3 years there .. cost me approx $225,000K.

Of course 50K per yr of that went to hire illegal immigrantss to write his papers, and cut his lawn.
Kuki Jr. should have grab a couple of people "who will work for food." He could have saved 50k per year.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 04:57 PM
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My youngest, Kuki Jr. attended college in Arizona (for three year).. just recently. Total cost for his 3 years there .. cost me approx $225,000K.

Of course 50K per yr of that went to hire illegal immigrantss to write his papers, and cut his lawn.
Kuki. did it really cost that much?

I put two daughters through college in Connecticut and it cost me about $60,000.

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Old June 6th, 2012, 05:09 PM
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That may be the published tuition, but most private schools today don't actually charge the published tuition for many students. They counter that crazy tuition by providing generous financial aid grants -- effectively reducing the tuition.
Yes, that's absolutely true, and I said so in my original post. In fact, my friend told me that the pitch they made to him was that they need to jack tuitions and get lots of contributions so they can increase their student aid.

Complete this sentence: The shortest distance between two points is. . .

As I also said, my family paid full fare for me, and we did the same for two kids. Not a penny in aid, grants, or whatever. Nada.

Which brings me to a related pet peeve. When our first kid was thinking about college, everybody at the high school said to fill out the universal student aid form, because "you never know." So I tackled it one night. Unless it's changed dramatically since then (and I've been told it hasn't), the form is far more interested in the family's net worth than in its income. Significant? You bet.

Families like us, who diligently put money aside for our kids' education, and therefore built up the family's net worth commensurately, were penalized. The letter I got back said, basically, "Nice try Skippy, but forget it." Other families making the same amount of money but who didn't bother saving for the kids have lower net worths and are therefore eligible for gobs of aid. So, those who do what they're supposed to do are penalized while those who just blow the cash are rewarded. I've brought this up to many college officials and board members and they all agree that this is exactly what happens.

Since apparently according to your numbers, only .2% of students don't get aid (an exclusive club I'm not particularly happy to be in), wouldn't it just be simpler to lower the price and save the administrative expense of working out all these aid packages?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 05:14 PM
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AR if the college you attended was in California this may account for the extra costs that inflation rate adjustment isn't capturing.
Kat--

No, it's a private university in the midwest. OK, it's Northwestern. No particular reason to hide it.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 05:25 PM
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Kuki. did it really cost that much?

I put two daughters through college in Connecticut and it cost me about $60,000.

TM
Manual.. I don't know when that would have been. But I assume that was in state tuition.

I think in state tuition at ASU is now about $10 K per semester, depending somewhat on which "school" you're in.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 06:47 PM
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My youngest, Kuki Jr. attended college in Arizona (for three year).. just recently. Total cost for his 3 years there .. cost me approx $225,000K.

Of course 50K per yr of that went to hire illegal immigrantss to write his papers, and cut his lawn.
Gee I hope for that kind of $$$ he's making the BIG BUCKS!!!
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Old June 6th, 2012, 09:16 PM
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Henry... I think you miss AR's point. The topic he was looking to discuss when he posts was the high costs of going to college today. He waw never asking you, or anyone else what you might have paid for college when you attended.

Any opinion on the astronomical cost of college for today's students, and how they might be able to deal with it?

My point was to show how times have changed .My alma mater now charges $5000 .00 a year .
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Old June 7th, 2012, 12:23 AM
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My point was to show how times have changed .My alma mater now charges $5000 .00 a year .
Well now, it certainly would have been worth saying what you meant


If even now it's $5000/yr there is someone paying more, even if not the students.

Though the economy is currently a wreck, it is still so very important for young people to get a college degree, or certified and qualified in a trade, because when the economy does recover they'll still have a large advantage over those without.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 01:25 AM
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The WWII GI bill paid for my education, and I assume that government aid goes a long way toward paying for the education of young people presently serving in the military. Both of my children received their degrees from a state university here in Texas. It wasn't Ivy League, but they are doing just as well as a Harvard graduate. My son attended Medical School as an Air Force member and is now employed by the State Department, and my daughter is working in computer program design and has published some 12 books of computer software programming for computer professionals.

Community colleges, small private colleges and state universities can provide a good reasonably priced education. Accumulating large student loans at big universities while attaining a liberal arts degree with little future can only lead to disaster.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Both of my children received their degrees from a state university here in Texas. It wasn't Ivy League, but they are doing just as well as a Harvard graduate. My son attended Medical School as an Air Force member and is now employed by the State Department, and my daughter is working in computer program design and has published some 12 books of computer software programming for computer professionals.

Community colleges, small private colleges and state universities can provide a good reasonably priced education. Accumulating large student loans at big universities while attaining a liberal arts degree with little future can only lead to disaster.
I fully agree that the "reputation" of the school has little to do with how much money a graduate may make. It's also true that with the possible exception of the medical and law fields, very few employers give a flying fig about your grade point average. They just want to know that the ticket was punched. I also agree with the overall belief that we should not shortchange community college and trade schools, per Mike's point. We need all these skills, and every worker of good will has a place in the fabric.

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Accumulating large student loans at big universities while attaining a liberal arts degree with little future can only lead to disaster.
While of course I agree that racking up huge debt loads is usually calamitous, I do not agree with equating liberal arts degrees with "little future." First, although we need trade schools, universities are not the same thing. Liberal arts is the quintessential university curriculum, where young minds are taught to think, to reason, to write, to appreciate beauty and history, and to put modern problems into the long, slow context of civilization over the ages. These things do not lead automatically to buckets full of money, but they are still important to our world, and those who go this route should not be categorized as people with "little future." Especially because many teachers begin with liberal arts diplomas, and God knows we need good teachers.

I took my degree in communication, but luckily at a university that required a very large percentage of the classes to be taken in what would broadly be classified as liberal arts. I'm very glad to have had that background, even though I went on to a career in communication. The "trade school" courses in my major were, it turned out, the least important classes I took. The classes that shaped me the most were the ones in English, science, logic and history.

It's also true that the other side of the well worn cliche that "liberal arts gets you nowhere" is the happy truth that liberal arts can get you anywhere. One of our sons has a liberal arts degree from NYU, English major, French minor. He's now an airline captain. Has his education played a role in his career and in his life. He says yes, definitely. When he flies to a French-speaking place, he can go into a carryout and order in French. He says this is important, because they're generally so impressed that an American pilot speaks French that they give him a much larger portion of food than normal.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Well now, it certainly would have been worth saying what you meant


If even now it's $5000/yr there is someone paying more, even if not the students.

Though the economy is currently a wreck, it is still so very important for young people to get a college degree, or certified and qualified in a trade, because when the economy does recover they'll still have a large advantage over those without.

Brooklyn college is NOT a private school .Its part of City University (CUNY) .
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Old June 7th, 2012, 11:34 AM
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We either got lucky or planned ahead of time, but no student loans for my boys. Both went to our local Texas A&M. They were able to live at home, so no room and board to pay.

Josh was on a full scholarship, so all we had to pay for him was books.

Joe went a year and had entered a program where he volenteered for the summer, and they would pay his tution for the first 6 months of the school year. What they didn't pay, we paid for him.

The boys had many grants, scholarships to choose from. I loved some of them, but my favorite was "If Your Dad Has Been Deployed More Than 4 Times In your lifetime" I swear that was the name of it.

I pushed from a young age the need for a college education, but with the agreement that after age 21 they could do what they wanted to with their lives.

I never once said that the so called IVY league was the way to go. With what they were wanting to do, it didn't make much sense.

We have never had much money, and never will, so I tried to stress to the boys that it was not where you went, but that you got as much out of it, as possible.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Why isn't common sense used when it comes to education. Why would anyone have hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans after graduation. What are we doing to our young people?

You should be able to be a lawyer, or a doctor without spending years worrying about student loans.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 12:30 PM
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Brooklyn college is NOT a private school .Its part of City University (CUNY) .
Yes, thank you Henry. We knew that. Or if we didn't know it we figured it out, because no private school lets students attend for free or for a token payment. This is not only true now, but was also true way back when the earth was cooling.

Scholarships and grants excepted of course. But there's never been a "list price" that low at a private school.
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