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  #31 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 03:58 PM
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So...

Now that I have said that I will say this...

This is not the only board with grammar police. I see it in every board. I even frequent a message board for guitar players (rock 'n rollers) and even there are many people who bring up grammar all the time.

I chalk it up to this - because of forums and the Internet more people are actually writing all the time. Now I agree with the person who said "I don't care about grammer as long as the idea gets across." I always look for ideas over presentation first - you actually get a lot more out of life if you do NOT judge people by their appearances.

That being said - when it comes to grammar I have my own peccadilloes.

I see more people misusing the term "wary" than I see people using it correctly. People will write they are "weary" of a something, or "leary" - the correct terms are "wary" and "leery".

Now - I was shocked recently to find that the word "till" is proper grammar in this sense, "I waited till midnight to turn off the light"

I had always thought the proper word was "until" and that the correct usage was the abbreviated "'til" Wrong! It turns out that 'til came from some early advertising campaign where someone colloquialised a common phrase that had the word "until" in it. Imagine my shock! I used that incorrectly my entire life until less than a year ago.

Now - as someone who has regular copy editors revising my work all the time let me tell you, you never know how truly bad your writing can be until it is scrutinized by a professional editor.

Grammar is easy. Wait until you have an editor who can't stand passive voice. It took me a year to fully understand the passive voice concept and assuage it from my repertoire.

In professional writing there is actually a conflict between good action writing and good grammar. If you always use qualifying statements your writing gets very long and boring (sort of like this post so far) - and that does not make good copy. One of my team, Janice, our culinary editor, does not use proper grammar at all when she writes, yet she is the most published writer of us all.

Try taking a 2000 word article and see if you can reduce it to 1000 words without changing the message.

Which brings up another problem I have in my writing: repeating myself. I can state the same idea five different ways, and to me it seems like I am making a different point each time, but in fact I am just putting a different slant on the same topic.

Ahhh.... writing. I am also one of the few to whom writing comes naturally. We are lucky. I ended up a professional writer even though I never sought the job. The people who needed me found me.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 04:06 PM
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Every week on my ship I am required to read all the comment cards completed by passengers.
Fully one-third of them are illegible - every week.

I pass them around the table to my department heads, each one trying to decipher the writing and grammar. In most cases we are unable to determine the message.

In the end, they go into the trash bin.
It's a shame that so many people spend part of their hard-earned vacation time writing (hopefully) constructive feedback that cannot be understood.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 04:12 PM
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I have also been in a cruise directors office when we were going over comment cards (when I was on staff)

As much as I hate to say it, I have to affirm what Bruce just said, the comment card is not the place to go into long detail about something. The only things that get tabulated are the ratings.

As far as grammar - remember people writing on comment cards don't have a spell-check or word processor, or even a typewriter. Its a lot easier to write when you can cut & paste and revise your thoughts without leaving eraser marks.

Cool! I got the NCL bouncy ball ad. I like that thing.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_rd View Post
2. Let us wet your appetite. - Because your mouth is dry?
I had a professional copywriter send me a piece describing a meal and then asking "Appetite whet yet?" Huh?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 05:12 PM
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I had a professional copywriter send me a piece describing a meal and then asking "Appetite whet yet?" Huh?
You have to allow for the possibility that the writer was doing it as a joke to take advantage of the "whet yet" alliteration. "Whetted yet" would be correct, but he/she was probably counting on you to accept the joke. Still, it's almost as funny when you do it right.
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Last edited by AR; June 29th, 2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:53 PM
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Sometimes you can just tell, and i dont think she was that clever.

Yes, whet is a noun or a verb, not an adjective.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
So, I have a suggestion for AR and many of the other posters here - Can I just ask everyone to go out of their way to be sensitive to people's feelings?
So let's review the bidding. I start a string based on a funny list of misused homophones, and don't mention anybody on this board or anywhere else as an offender. Most people who respond, including one of your moderators, think it is cute, and that's the end of it. Two people are "offended" because they evidently think it's directed at them, which is isn't. When in reply I and others admit that at the end of the day we think language is important, the retorts range from "you know nothing" to "bite me." I am singled out for insensitivity. Mind you, I can take anything anybody here wants to dish out, and a lot more, but that's kind of interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
Now I agree with the person who said "I don't care about grammer as long as the idea gets across."
I don't, because it is almost universally true that ideas get across better via the correct use of the language. What's more, correct usage adds to the credibility of any idea, whether it's good or lousy.

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Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
Now - as someone who has regular copy editors revising my work all the time let me tell you, you never know how truly bad your writing can be until it is scrutinized by a professional editor.
Very true. In my experience, good writers view good editors as colleagues; mediocre and bad writers view them as adversaries.

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Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
Grammar is easy. Wait until you have an editor who can't stand passive voice. It took me a year to fully understand the passive voice concept and assuage it from my repertoire.
Apparently grammar isn't easy for most. But you're right about passive voice. I don't know a single good editor who won't blue-pencil it. And they're right. The trouble with passive voice is that it is a copout in terms of who's making the statement. "I think" is far better than "It is thought," to use a simple example. That's why politicians like passive so much. Plus, I've always thought passive voice was clunky and inelegant. So if by "assuage it from my repertoire" you mean "pretty much stop using it" (simplify, simplify), I think you're on the right track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
In professional writing there is actually a conflict between good action writing and good grammar. If you always use qualifying statements your writing gets very long and boring.
I'm not sure what qualifying statements have to do with good grammar per se, but the old adage that once you know the rules you're allowed some latitude to break them certainly holds true. But only in a good cause, and when you write well you know what the good causes are.

Finally, did you censor my Leviticus joke in the OP because you thought people wouldn't get it, or because you thought they would?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old June 29th, 2012, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
So...

Now that I have said that I will say this...

This is not the only board with grammar police. I see it in every board. I even frequent a message board for guitar players (rock 'n rollers) and even there are many people who bring up grammar all the time.

I chalk it up to this - because of forums and the Internet more people are actually writing all the time. Now I agree with the person who said "I don't care about grammer as long as the idea gets across." I always look for ideas over presentation first - you actually get a lot more out of life if you do NOT judge people by their appearances.

That being said - when it comes to grammar I have my own peccadilloes.

I see more people misusing the term "wary" than I see people using it correctly. People will write they are "weary" of a something, or "leary" - the correct terms are "wary" and "leery".

Now - I was shocked recently to find that the word "till" is proper grammar in this sense, "I waited till midnight to turn off the light"

I had always thought the proper word was "until" and that the correct usage was the abbreviated "'til" Wrong! It turns out that 'til came from some early advertising campaign where someone colloquialised a common phrase that had the word "until" in it. Imagine my shock! I used that incorrectly my entire life until less than a year ago.

Now - as someone who has regular copy editors revising my work all the time let me tell you, you never know how truly bad your writing can be until it is scrutinized by a professional editor.

Grammar is easy. Wait until you have an editor who can't stand passive voice. It took me a year to fully understand the passive voice concept and assuage it from my repertoire.

In professional writing there is actually a conflict between good action writing and good grammar. If you always use qualifying statements your writing gets very long and boring (sort of like this post so far) - and that does not make good copy. One of my team, Janice, our culinary editor, does not use proper grammar at all when she writes, yet she is the most published writer of us all.

Try taking a 2000 word article and see if you can reduce it to 1000 words without changing the message.

Which brings up another problem I have in my writing: repeating myself. I can state the same idea five different ways, and to me it seems like I am making a different point each time, but in fact I am just putting a different slant on the same topic.

Ahhh.... writing. I am also one of the few to whom writing comes naturally. We are lucky. I ended up a professional writer even though I never sought the job. The people who needed me found me.

When I read posts made by a person who is a schoolteacher and said posts contain words incorrectly spelled or grammatically incorrect it totally turns me off .
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2012, 01:26 AM
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Before this morning I would have said sure, be glad to share. But now that I've been informed that I know nothing I'm a little hesitant. Still, if you're willing to roll those dice, I'd be glad to chat about it. Send me a PM with your e-mail, because I think it'd be better to take it offline, away from this stuff.

On our last crossing a couple months ago I suggested at the CC party that I'd be happy to arrange an informal get-together for anyone interested in family history research, since I was on my way to Guernsey to continue with mine. I included the caveat that I'm a relative rookie at this, but that I'd be glad to be a convener. To my surprise, eight or nine people from the group showed up, including a true black belt researcher, and we had a terrific session that lasted about an hour and a half.

I did a similar group for Sherlock Holmes fans with about the same results. Really fun.
That would be a blast I love research and skip tracing. I like to find what other people don't think can be found. Important aspect of my job. I sent you a PM with my e-mail. They gave DNA databases now. You can submit your data and it someone in the database matches it will link you. There is a Portuguese (Madeira Island) website for DNA matches. It's interesting because they list the surnames they are interesting i finding. I have three of the surnames in my family tree on both sides. I got a lot of ties to that little island.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2012, 01:45 AM
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Mike, sorry if you are offended, but thats how I feel.

posted earlier: "Online, there are a limited number of indicators that let us size up those who post."

Some people cannot accept others just as they are. They have an overwhelming, consuming need to "size them up" and categorize them. Every board has an Alex Trebek, and the rest are all losers on Jeopardy.
Everyone sizes everyone else up. Whether you think you do or not. Take my signature line it helps you determine my approach to this board and life in general. I'm here to be entertained I take very little serious. I have no problem with fart humor. Even if you don't mean to it's hard to not judge who I'm by my unicorn farting rainbows. Guess what I'm fine with that. I always say 80% of what I write is a joke and 20% is a lie that fun part for you, the reader is to determining if I'm joking or lying.

Some people are different on the boards then they are in person. More shy in person and more out going on the boards. In person I'm the same. A co worker told me "you write the same way you talk." I'm Portuguese both sides and I have the family tree to prove it. I don't think we allow shy people in Portugal we send them all to Spain. By the way compared to crazy sister (C-sis) I'm the quiet, shy and innocent one. For the people that have cruised with her out of New Orleans they know she is loud.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2012, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
I have also been in a cruise directors office when we were going over comment cards (when I was on staff)

As much as I hate to say it, I have to affirm what Bruce just said, the comment card is not the place to go into long detail about something. The only things that get tabulated are the ratings.

As far as grammar - remember people writing on comment cards don't have a spell-check or word processor, or even a typewriter. Its a lot easier to write when you can cut & paste and revise your thoughts without leaving eraser marks.

Cool! I got the NCL bouncy ball ad. I like that thing.
On my comment cards I like to write comments on the really excellent employees I encounter on my cruise. Last cruise it was the waiters and my cabin steward. I was hoping my comments helped them somehow. Like in their personnel file or someone lets them know how pleased we where. Does that mean nothing, but the rates count? I also issued 2 WOW cards on Royal Caribbean does this help the staff that receive them?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old June 30th, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Because I have not been online for over a week, I'm seeing this whole thread in one "go", and it's fascinating how something obviously intended as a bit of whimsy got diverted into a discussion of manners.

I always figure most of the grammar and spelling errors are the result of someone typing quickly and not bothering to go back and read over what was written; after all, this is just a friendly chat and everyone tends to be a bit careless among friends. That doesn't mean I don't find some of the results amusing, though.

Many years ago I came across a quote that has made my stress level in life much lower. I don't remember to whom it was credited or the exact wording, but the gist of it was, "Don't attribute to malevolence what might be the result of simple ignorance." Or in the case of a misused or misspelled word, realize that what you may consider ignorance may instead be rushed typing.

Just as an aside, my grandson spilled chicken noodle soup on his father's keyboard and as a result neither the apostrophe nor the semicolon work anymore. They've managed to put up with it for over four months now.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2012, 01:50 PM
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Most of the original post has been moderated (edited) for clarity.
This makes the replying posts seem out of context at times.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ship2shore View Post
Most of the original post has been moderated (edited) for clarity.
This makes the replying posts seem out of context at times.
And would those out of context replies include your personal attacks which some might consider outside the rules?

Sistersolo is exactly right that the OP was meant to be a bit of whimsy, nothing more. If you don't accept that, it's your problem and no one else's.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2012, 10:59 PM
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Paul Motter made it perfectly clear that personal attacks can be blatant or "veiled" under a guise of verbal decorum. Nice try but no cigar for you my friend.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old July 1st, 2012, 11:08 PM
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The power I have in this place scares me at times. I feel like Justice John Roberts, at times. Anyway - this...

Quote:
On my comment cards I like to write comments on the really excellent employees I encounter on my cruise. Last cruise it was the waiters and my cabin steward. I was hoping my comments helped them somehow. Like in their personnel file or someone lets them know how pleased we where. Does that mean nothing, but the rates count? I also issued 2 WOW cards on Royal Caribbean does this help the staff that receive them?
I think Bruce would agree with me that Wow cards DO have some impact. The key is realizing that a cruise ship is like any work place, where things are designed to be certain things. Ratings cards can be tabulated, but to read the notes and make somehow process them requires a lot of extra work - just not always likely to happen. Now on some ships there may be a person who takes pride in reading all the extra comments and making notes - but what do you really think usually happens given the state of most workplaces these days?

Wow cards are designed to be processed, though, so they do count.

I hate to sound jaded, I am just telling you cruise ships run like any other business. There are processes that get done the same way week after week. You best bet is to work within the process, not try to stand out. Does that make sense?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Hey Paul. I was kinda pointing out that you have the final say...
You did just lock another thread for name-calling, right? (tongue-in-cheek approach duly noted)

On a side note (or rather, back to the original issue), since you were a "cruise insider", I personally appreciate the (very rare) inside look into how a ship REALLY operates. More please.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 09:07 AM
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I must say, I do try to use grammar properly and correct spelling has been pounded into my head by various family members since i was 4. My problem is too often I am rushed and usually doing my computer work via phone (such as now).

So i'll just put it out there....if i "fat finger" the phone, feel free to tease me about it as i don't mind.....but lay off other people as they can take offense to it easily

#cantwealljustgetalong ;-)
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Exclamation Comment cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Chafkin1 View Post
Every week on my ship I am required to read all the comment cards completed by passengers.
Fully one-third of them are illegible - every week.

I pass them around the table to my department heads, each one trying to decipher the writing and grammar. In most cases we are unable to determine the message.

In the end, they go into the trash bin.
It's a shame that so many people spend part of their hard-earned vacation time writing (hopefully) constructive feedback that cannot be understood.
I try very hard to print legibly and express my ideas clearly.

But WHY in the world do I only get six closely spaced lines to do it in???

Give us more room on the cards, and perhaps we can write more sensible comments.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Talking Fun with style

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Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
Grammar is easy. Wait until you have an editor who can't stand passive voice. It took me a year to fully understand the passive voice concept and assuage it from my repertoire.
Ah, indeed, Grammar is easy. Spelling is easy. Style -- well, style is something else!

Do you remember that Mark Twain said, "The difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug"?

I have to say, Paul, that the dictionary gives "Assuage" as
as·suage
   [uh-sweyj, uh-sweyzh]
verb (used with object), as·suaged, as·suag·ing.
1. to make milder or less severe; relieve; ease; mitigate: to assuage one's grief; to assuage one's pain.
2. to appease; satisfy; allay; relieve: to assuage one's hunger.
3. to soothe, calm, or mollify: to assuage his fears; to assuage her anger.

So perhaps you mean that the passive voice was alleviated from your repertoire in order that the editor might be fully assuaged and persuaded to more easily accept your writing? (Read that carefully to fully capture the intentional irony ...)

Were you taught, as I was, to never split infinitives?

When grammar rules are thought of, remember that George Bernard Shaw said, "This rule of not ending a sentence with a preposition is a lot of nonsense up with which I will not put." Or as the child asked at bedtime, "What did you bring that book I don't want to be read to out of up for?"

Now here is a new game. The rest of you go off and write as you choose, and Paul and I will edit each other's posts.
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Last edited by MercedMike; July 2nd, 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Talking Challenge

Ok, some of you take pride in proper punctuation. So here is a challenge -- The following can be made in to a perfectly readable and sensible sentence with proper punctuation. Can you do it?

John where James had had had had had had had had had had had the teacher's approval.

Nothing needed but punctuation.

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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:37 PM
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When I read posts made by a person who is a schoolteacher and said posts contain words incorrectly spelled or grammatically incorrect it totally turns me off .
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This I suppose is directed at me.

You win Henry!! I will go quietly.

Take care all and thanks for the memories, and the love.

Luanne
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Luanne-- don't let a few posts get to you--no one, no matter how perfect they are in their own mind, is actually perfect. Usually those who try so hard to impress others with their intellect, money, worldly experiences, etc. etc do so because they are merely trying to impress themselves.
I have been around here since Sept.of 2000 and am basically about as welcome and popular as a stranger that shows up at a family reunion -- I have been flamed, shot at , lambasted or whatever you want to call it from time to time over the years for what I post but it doesn't bother me. I usually just go on about my own business , take a couple cruises a year and let the intellectuals duel with each other. Sometimes it does make for fun reading !!
So, just let it run of your back like the ducks do !!
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 01:29 PM
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Ron COULD NOT have said anything better.
Don't let the bullies get to you.
Theyre compensating for other inadequacies, and if you show them theyre getting to you, it makes them VERY happy.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
When I read posts made by a person who is a schoolteacher and said posts contain words incorrectly spelled or grammatically incorrect it totally turns me off .
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This I suppose is directed at me.

You win Henry!! I will go quietly.

Take care all and thanks for the memories, and the love.

Luanne
Wow, Luanne!

"This, I SUPPOSE, is directed at me"??

You are not the only schoolteacher on the board. I also followed the noble profession until retirement. Why should I not suppose it is directed at ME?

OR--perhaps both of us could suppose that it was a generic comment directed at nobody in particular but just contributing to the topic at hand?

As others have said, I too have been flamed, insulted, called a liar, and blasted on this and other boards. Having my grammar and spelling corrected is small potatoes compared to that!

Don't leave mad, just join in the fun. Now taking out my red pencil, and applying it to the quote in black you posted (I disremember who the OP of that was), as a teacher I see one actual grammatical error and three stylistic errors I would line through. It grades out about B-. Your post in red, OTOH, has no glaring errors and only two small stylistic matters I would look at. It gets an A-.

NOW you grade my posts! I am thick skinned!
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:37 PM
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Mercedmike... 90% of those type of those posts are with malice aforethought, its just a question of how much malice (as well as how much lipstick they put on their pig for "camouflage").

The other 10% have genuinely good intentions, and either clarify and/or apologise for how their words were (mis)interpreted.

I, for one, am starting to have a very low tolerance for "board bullies", and will call them out from now on. This is starting to get old. There is NO WAY that the quote in question can be seen as anything but a jab... and to further add, I think teachers deserve a little more respect than that. Just because youre an educator, it does not mean you have to be "on" 24/7.

I dont post what I do for a living, and where I live, because BBs have dandelions among the roses.

Last edited by ship2shore; July 3rd, 2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:57 PM
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''Let's eat Grandma!''
or,
''Let's eat, Grandma!''
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Use it. Save a life.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:31 PM
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Mike,

I am not mad, it is just a matter of how much I can take, in this part of my life.

I am not mad at Henry. He and I do not see eye to eye, and that has been going on since he joined the board. He is anti military, and has said so many times. He knows that my hubby is going on 35 years associated with the finest men and women in the world.

I am very much sad by leaving. When I joined Cruisemates, I had never posted on line before. I needed instant advice about cruising, and got it, and then some. The people here, and those who have come and gone, have become my family.

When Joe was murdered, I got on here to tell my CM friends, before I told my neighbors. That is how much CM meant to me.

Jim has kept his Christmas cards, that the CM family sent to him in Iraq.

Since I joined, he has been deployed 6 times. I could not have gotten through it without so many of you.

But, it is no secret that these last 3 1/2 years have been painful for me. Not only physically, but metally, as well.

So, I wish CM much luck, and all it's members, much happiness.

I have so many great memories of this site, and not even Henry can take those away. No hard feelings!!!

God Bless All

Luanne
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 07:29 PM
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Luanne... youre allowed to quit at 10,000 posts, and not a post before.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 07:59 PM
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AR,

Sorry my friend but I disagree. Understand I was raised in a home where only the most correct English was spoken (also, my Mother was the only person I ever met who could actually converse in Latin). Another thing for which she was famous was that she would correct your English, but only if she loved you. Had it been necessary, were the occasion to arise and I were to be speaking to the President and say something gramatically incorrect she would correct me in not a New York Minute, but a New York Hearbeat. But remember, that was my mother and such thibngsw are expected of parents.

Another example was a former Board member of our Humane Society who was a CPA by profession. When we elected him Treasurer he used to give us reports that were pages long. When I requested he give us a simple sheet we could all understand he made, with me (and others), his greatest mistake. He would say, "I dumbed it down for you." My final words to him were three initials, "AMF."

i have written over 800 newspaper columns but I go out of my way to write in the manner in which people not only best understand but appreciate. Does this make me either superior to them or lower than me? Absolutely NOt! Many make more money in a day than I ever could in a year plus, they give of that money.

And I take issue with your last statement "Crap Chute." It is most always referred to, by English literates, as a Crap Shoot. This may well serve as a perfect example of from whence I speak.

To your side, I say yes, we all should learn proper English. But we won't and probably we shouldn't because it would make life much too formal. Those who know the language intimately should use it thusly. If the rest of us need a dictionary that is our problem......if we choose to read whatever was written.
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