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  #31 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 11:21 AM
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Thank you, Kuki.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by iconic View Post
I have been told by intelligent people that when President Obama gets re-elected he will stack the Supreme Court and impose strict gun control throughout the USA. After what I see what he has done in his first term, I think strict gun control could happen in his second
One of the HUGE problems we have in our country today is the fact that the different parties use FEAR to try to win campaigns. I believe the Right to be worse at this than the Left but I am probably biased.

I have NEVER understood why people believe the BS about Obama wanting to take peoples guns away.

What I am afraid of is that a huge amount of people in this country are believing all of these lies and believe that anyone that may say ANYTHING to the contrary is Un -American!

How did we get here?
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Old August 19th, 2012, 12:30 PM
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I have to start by saying that I am a gun owner, hunter, target shooter and hold permits to carry valid in 42 States.

Having said that: I never would advocate someone purchasing a firearm and/or applying for a permit to carry until:

1. They have had a minimum of eight hours of classroom and field instruction in the use of the weapon and, at least six hours, of training in gun laws and ramifications of use. This instruction should be done by a certified instructor who has extensive personal and military training with weapons.

2. They obtain additional instruction in close quarter use of a handgun before they apply for a permit to carry.

I also believe that it should be mandatory that:

1. Everyone must pass a gun safety course before they can purchase or own a rifle or shotgun for hunting purposes. This course would be less intense than the requirements for a permit to carry.

2. Almost all states now require anyone under sixteen to receive firearms training and pass a test in firearms safety. If the state does not require this then it should be implemented.

3. A thorough background check needs to be done for each person obtaining a permit to carry and also to purchase a handgun. However, a permit or purchase cannot be denied to anyone who's background does not show a history of violence, mental illness or chemical dependency.

4. [ALL] current gun laws need to be enforced.

I have seen and know a number of people who own firearms and have carry permits who should not. They do not have proper training in the use of the firearm and some who will probably have the firearm taken from them, and used against them or someone else, in a crisis situation.

Gun ownership is a right and can be a great source of enjoyment and protection but it is also something that comes with a VERY high level of responsibility. States require individuals to have much more training to drive a car then to carry a loaded weapon.

I know that my position is one that people who are against gun ownership will disagree with and those who are gun advocates will also disagree with. I take this position because of years gun ownership and seeing how responsible gun owners use their weapons and how irresponsible and improperly trained gun owners use their weapons.

Take care,
Mike
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 01:07 PM
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Actually, I do agree with you Mike. I am also a gun owner, NRA Benefactor Member, and have a concealed carry permit valid in 25 states.

Of course, the issue with requiring mandatory training is some places would (and some currently do) use this as a means of denying ownership by making the training hard to get. Washington DC is a notable example. SCOTUS ruled they violated the individual right and since that ruling DC has done a lot of stonewalling. That would need to be addressed.

When I grew up in NY State we had to attend a Hunter Certification Course to obtain a hunting license. It was about 24 hours and in the end we had to show basic marksmanship and safety skills with a .22 rifle on an indoor range.

Here in Alabama they finally started a hunter safety course, but they grandfathered adults over a certain age. Frankly, I do not see the logic in assuming an adult is any safer than a 16 year old. In fact, the adult is more likely to have acquired bad habits.

Our county sheriff offers a handgun course for women which covers everything you mentioned including the liability issues. The women get a pistol permit as part of the course, although you do not need any training to obtain the permit. Oddly he does not offer a course for men.

I feel I am qualified to carry by virtue of the training I received in the Marine Corps, and because I shot PPC for many years. But, a new gun shop opened recently and they are providing NRA certified classes on various things. I am signing up for some courses, because a little refresher training should also be required periodically.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 01:39 PM
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iconic,
You stated a lot of reasoning for possibly buying a gun that was not state in your OP. Obviosly, you are struggling with this decision and probably for good reason. I personally agree w/ the reasons, but am not going to the extremes you are thinking of. In the OP we did not know if you was a crackpot or a serious inquirer for your question. The discusses got off track and humorous. Now that you stated your reasoning for the question, the discussions have gone to better & more serious answers. So if you decide to purchase I highly recommend you read Mike M's post a second time.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kuki View Post
You just have to be misinformed. Rather than believe what you're told, or what you may have read someone saying about President Obama's position, you should see if you can find anywhere, in his own policy statements, where President Obama states that as his policy.

The "smart people" say it's his "hidden agenda" and he can't state such an unpopular policy publicly, but will assure you it's there
Actually he is not misinformed. I have already been through this topic at length with AR in another thread, so I am not going to rehash that again.

However, I can tell you something about President Obama and his stance on gun policy. People in this Country seem to forget the Obama had a political life before he was President. Even before he was the Senator from Illinois, he served in the Illinois State Senate in Springfield, IL representing the southside of Chicago. I canb tell you this because not only am I also a lifetime NRA member, a concealed carry permit holder in 40+ States, and a champion shooter in Defensive Pistol and long range rifle, I am also the political director of my gun club and thus a registered lobbyist in IL for gun rights.

While a State Senator, Obama proposed numerous legislation to ban all handguns, semi-auto rifles and any shot gun that held more than 3 rounds. He stated publically in many debates in the IL State Senate he is in favor of repealing the 2nd Amendment and a total ban on all guns in America. He made those statements in recorded debates in the IL State Senate, and his words can be found in the records of the IL State Senate. This is why the NRA and gun owners all over the US fear a 2nd term by Obama, because of these policy statements he made while serving as IL State Senator.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 09:45 PM
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We also have permits for several states. We both went through all of the courses, and here in Texas, to renew your permit, you have to take a refresher course.

Mike I agree with you with what you stated.

I appreciate Blueliner coming forward with his info. President Obama views on gun ownership is well known, and can be found several places in the net.

Having a gun takes responsablility, time, and common sense.

The next stage in the ownership debate is the fact that the UN wants to have a worldwide gun band. They would decide who can carry, and who can't.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 10:07 PM
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So you know what else PITA stands for?

PITA=Pain in the A..
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Luanne Russo View Post
You spelled the word God with a little G. That tells me something.

I am not a hunter, nor have I ever, ever seen Bambie in the movies, because I have a tender heart.

There is an agreement around here, that hunters, who do not keep the meat, pay to have it processed, and it is then given to hundreds of people who other wise would not have meat on the table.

If the herd is not cut, they slowly starve to death, and I can't think of any other way to die, that is more horrible.

In my Bible it says that God gave life, and to maintain that life, he gave us food.

He also says, judge not that you be judged.
You have said that your husband hunts for sport .

If all GOd's creatures are equal then man should not be killing non humans for sport.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 10:16 PM
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Lakers Fan: It's amazing that you know all three people in Texas without guns. Do they have to pay higher insurance rates?[/QUOTE]


I stated that I know 3 people residing in Texas who do not own guns .

I've also stated numerous times that I am the recipient of a Humanitarian award given to me at the United Nations .

I do not advocate killing for sport .
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 10:35 PM
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While I admit to being a "political junkie" concerning US politics, I do admit to not following what did or did not get brought up while President Obama was a state senator.

I do know, nothing he has said or done as President would lead one to believe he has any intention to repeal the 2nd ammendment.

I do however follow alot of various media representing right and the left. It's my "entertainment" because I don't really have a dog in the race.

It would be "political suicide" to even suggest it. Even after the Gabby Gifford incident in AZ, and the most recent movie theater shootings in Colorado, he didn't even mention any reductions in the size of magazines.

As a "political junkie" the one thing I think is obvious is 90% of politicans are (how do you say whore politely?).

Mitt Romney was Pro-choice, and pro Health Care. His view "evolved" because he wanted to move from Governor to President.

For both Democrats and Repubicans, in most cases, their positions "evolve" to whatever position they think will get them elected.

As an onlooker, back when President Obama was elected, and the economy was on the very brink of collapse, and I saw the Repub Leader of the Senate publically state that their sole goal and purpose was to make Obama a one term leader, my jaw dropped.

I knew then politically your country was in BIG trouble! And that's proving oh so true.

When the Dems did have a Super Majority, they all stood with their hands out, saying... "give me this and I'll give you my vote". They basically gave up any chance to even see if the "democratic agenda" would succeed.

Once they lost the Super Majority, absolutely NOTHING got done! The answer to every question raised in the Congress, was NO!

Whether any of the policies advanced would have worked or not, will never be known. It was more important to do nothing, than to even consider what might be good for the country.

Sadly, that attitude has spread to the population. Each party finds it perfectly justifiable to simply blame the other, and it doesn't matter if they use fact or fiction to diminish the other party.

And those who support the different parties, only believe what they read or hear said about the party they choose to believe.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old August 19th, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Old August 19th, 2012, 10:44 PM
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I will watch both the Republican and Democratic conventions and the Presidential debates . I will watch as many of the political shows that I can and hopefully decide by Election Day which of the candidates to vote for .

If I had to base my decision solely from reading the posts on this board I would definitely vote for Obama.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 10:53 PM
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The Republican convention will be lot of speeches critical of Obama.

The Democratic convention will be a lot of speeches critical of Romney.

In january we will go back to the usual crap where the members of congress will fatten their wallets.

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Old August 19th, 2012, 11:19 PM
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Of course, the issue with requiring mandatory training is some places would (and some currently do) use this as a means of denying ownership by making the training hard to get.
Kind of like requiring IDs to vote and then making them extremely hard to get as a practical matter for the less well advantaged as a means of denying voting rights to those who are likely to vote Democratic. Prime examples: Pennsylvania and Texas. Of course, I don't know why Texas even bothered. They've got as much chance of voting Democratic as the Cubs do of winning the pennant this year. But I guess if you see the opportunity to stack the deck, you jump at it.

To boot, there's much less evidence of voter fraud than there is of accidents involving poorly-trained gun toters.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Lakers Fan said that he knows three people in Texas who don't own guns.

I said: "It's amazing that you know all three people in Texas without guns. Do they have to pay higher insurance rates?"

Lakers Fan said: "I stated that I know 3 people residing in Texas who do not own guns. I've also stated numerous times that I am the recipient of a Humanitarian award given to me at the United Nations. I do not advocate killing for sport."

Now that last answer there truly begs for a "huh?" I've never really felt the need to do so, but I think I may have to start using those stupid smiley face things. I never seem to have to explain my gags to people I know in real life.

Anyway, I'm very happy for your award. I don't advocate killing for sport either. But I do enjoy a good steak.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR View Post
Lakers Fan said that he knows three people in Texas who don't own guns.

I said: "It's amazing that you know all three people in Texas without guns. Do they have to pay higher insurance rates?"

Lakers Fan said: "I stated that I know 3 people residing in Texas who do not own guns. I've also stated numerous times that I am the recipient of a Humanitarian award given to me at the United Nations. I do not advocate killing for sport."

Now that last answer there truly begs for a "huh?" I've never really felt the need to do so, but I think I may have to start using those stupid smiley face things. I never seem to have to explain my gags to people I know in real life.

Anyway, I'm very happy for your award. I don't advocate killing for sport either. But I do enjoy a good steak.
I have never eaten steak nor do I desire to do so.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 12:41 AM
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If you know anything about US politics, you know the President doesn't make the laws. Congress would have to take any blame here.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 09:51 AM
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Default Does Kuki read blueliner's input about Obama agenda?

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Actually he is not misinformed. I have already been through this topic at length with AR in another thread, so I am not going to rehash that again.

However, I can tell you something about President Obama and his stance on gun policy. People in this Country seem to forget the Obama had a political life before he was President. Even before he was the Senator from Illinois, he served in the Illinois State Senate in Springfield, IL representing the southside of Chicago. I canb tell you this because not only am I also a lifetime NRA member, a concealed carry permit holder in 40+ States, and a champion shooter in Defensive Pistol and long range rifle, I am also the political director of my gun club and thus a registered lobbyist in IL for gun rights.

While a State Senator, Obama proposed numerous legislation to ban all handguns, semi-auto rifles and any shot gun that held more than 3 rounds. He stated publically in many debates in the IL State Senate he is in favor of repealing the 2nd Amendment and a total ban on all guns in America. He made those statements in recorded debates in the IL State Senate, and his words can be found in the records of the IL State Senate. This is why the NRA and gun owners all over the US fear a 2nd term by Obama, because of these policy statements he made while serving as IL State Senator.
If you read Kukis email from yesterday which followed Blueliners, it's like he doesn't even read other people's input. He pontificates and doesn't pay any attention to facts even when they are pointed out to him like the quotes cited above.

I know he is busy, but you would think if he is going to write something he would cite some sources that can be checked. I am very troubled by this type of approach.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by omnipotent View Post
If you read Kukis email from yesterday which followed Blueliners, it's like he doesn't even read other people's input. He pontificates and doesn't pay any attention to facts even when they are pointed out to him like the quotes cited above.

I know he is busy, but you would think if he is going to write something he would cite some sources that can be checked. I am very troubled by this type of approach.

Well, one of us isn't reading

The first sentence in response to Blueliner was
Quote:
While I admit to being a "political junkie" concerning US politics, I do admit to not following what did or did not get brought up while President Obama was a state senator.
Acknowledging that I do not know what President Obama's position was while in the Illinois senate.

As for the rest, if you check out this or any other political threads, no where are there any links provided to proof of any kind to support any of the discussions.

Everyone is simply pontificating on their views. Nothing wrong with that.... it's all about expressing your opinions.

One thing about politics...all parties involved want to do their best to distort or camouflage their opponents positions. And they want all the media (on their sides) to help them.

Heck... they even each have set up their own "fact check" organizations, to back up their misrepsentations.

There is no one source for actual facts. Show me a candidate who's voting record demonstrates their actual views and is consistent (if you can find one), and you're likely showing me a candidate who is no longer an elected official.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Well, omnipotent isn't omnipotent, as shown by a rudimentary Google search of Obama's position on gun control while still in Illinois.

Turns out that there is certainly a kernel of truth in what blueliner says, but it's not as cut-and-dried as he claims. I'm not going to cite all the sources. You can do that yourselves if you want to (Google is easy to use, but is absolutely anathema to those who say, "I know what I think, don't confuse me with the facts").

Suffice it to say that Obama, like many people--and especially those who were trying to come to grips with 34 school shootings on the south side of Chicago in 2007 alone--was obviously conflicted on the issue. You may well hate him (and I know that many of you do), but you can't deny that he taught Constitutional law before he went into politics. And since he's not a stupid man, we should be able to agree that he had a passing familiarity with the Second Amendment.

But he also saw the carnage, and the preponderance of the evidence suggests that he was trying to find a way to limit it, as any decent person would. The gun lobby points to a quesionnaire that he evidently filled out in which he stated he's in favor of a handgun ban. He says that a staffer filled it out, which may be true, but is probably baloney. More likely, he woke up that morning completely frustrated by the gun violence on the south side, and checked the box out of pure emotion.

In any case, the obvious arc of most of his statements back then was that he wanted strict enforcement of existing laws, and whatever other reasonable and Constitutional measures could be put in place to avoid the killing he saw around him every day.

I think that any good person in that environment would "have his days" of complete frustration with the status quo, and that's completely understandable, even commendable.

Now that we know that blueliner is a self-identified member of the gun lobby, it's easier to understand why he has such binary views on all this. As somebody who has five lobbyists living within a block of me, I know that there's little room for shades of gray in any lobbying activity, and especially among those who lobby for the firearms industry.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 12:32 PM
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I happen to also believe in god with a small g.
I guess Im automatically a bad person then.

You know its a sad day when the most relevant reason to buy a gun is to protect myself from the other nutjobs out there who have guns.... sad but so terribly true. Thats why the USA is undoubtedly the craziest MF on the planet.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 01:08 PM
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Default What's the difference between a kernel of truth and the whole truth

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Well, omnipotent isn't omnipotent, as shown by a rudimentary Google search of Obama's position on gun control while still in Illinois.

Turns out that there is certainly a kernel of truth in what blueliner says, but it's not as cut-and-dried as he claims. I'm not going to cite all the sources. You can do that yourselves if you want to (Google is easy to use, but is absolutely anathema to those who say, "I know what I think, don't confuse me with the facts").

Suffice it to say that Obama, like many people--and especially those who were trying to come to grips with 34 school shootings on the south side of Chicago in 2007 alone--was obviously conflicted on the issue. You may well hate him (and I know that many of you do), but you can't deny that he taught Constitutional law before he went into politics. And since he's not a stupid man, we should be able to agree that he had a passing familiarity with the Second Amendment.

But he also saw the carnage, and the preponderance of the evidence suggests that he was trying to find a way to limit it, as any decent person would. The gun lobby points to a quesionnaire that he evidently filled out in which he stated he's in favor of a handgun ban. He says that a staffer filled it out, which may be true, but is probably baloney. More likely, he woke up that morning completely frustrated by the gun violence on the south side, and checked the box out of pure emotion.

In any case, the obvious arc of most of his statements back then was that he wanted strict enforcement of existing laws, and whatever other reasonable and Constitutional measures could be put in place to avoid the killing he saw around him every day.

I think that any good person in that environment would "have his days" of complete frustration with the status quo, and that's completely understandable, even commendable.

Now that we know that blueliner is a self-identified member of the gun lobby, it's easier to understand why he has such binary views on all this. As somebody who has five lobbyists living within a block of me, I know that there's little room for shades of gray in any lobbying activity, and especially among those who lobby for the firearms industry.
Are we arguiing semantics.
A kernel of truth is the same as a ton of truth. Show me the difference. The truth is that Blueliner stated the truth - period end of point. He cited statments that Obama made which indicated what Obama desires. You elaborated on what Obama said and when Obama made these statments it doesnot change the truth. I then have to ask a question why hasn't Obama done something about the violence in Chicago. He's had four years to act and proof of his effectiveness is how many people are being killed in Chicago.

What one says or has said is indicates what one believes and that is the measuring stick most people use to predict future actions. Leopards don't change their spots they just get a dfferent shade of gray.
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Old August 20th, 2012, 01:42 PM
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What Blueliner stated was :

Quote:
While a State Senator, Obama proposed numerous legislation to ban all handguns, semi-auto rifles and any shot gun that held more than 3 rounds
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Old August 20th, 2012, 01:48 PM
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Are we arguiing semantics.
A kernel of truth is the same as a ton of truth. Show me the difference. The truth is that Blueliner stated the truth - period end of point. He cited statments that Obama made which indicated what Obama desires. You elaborated on what Obama said and when Obama made these statments it doesnot change the truth. I then have to ask a question why hasn't Obama done something about the violence in Chicago. He's had four years to act and proof of his effectiveness is how many people are being killed in Chicago.

What one says or has said is indicates what one believes and that is the measuring stick most people use to predict future actions. Leopards don't change their spots they just get a dfferent shade of gray.
You make my point exactly. Thank you. I spoke of those who are binary thinkers, and you evidently fall into that category. The switch is either on or it is off. There's no in-between. It's either a zero or a one. There's no room for discussion, there's no room for "yes, but," there's no room for "have you considered this possibility?" And there's certainly no room for "I'm not sure." Binary thinkers are always positive that they're right. With that attitude, you should probably run for Congress. Sounds like you'd fit right in.

Ironically, the man you'll vote for for president is someone who has changed his spots so often that every leopard in the world is green with envy.

Well, maybe not green. . .
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Old August 20th, 2012, 04:05 PM
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To add some levity to this conversation, did you guys hear about the American visiting Calgary during the stampede? he was approached by two men on a trail to see if he and his wife wanted free stampede tickets?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/a...al-media-storm
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Old August 20th, 2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zydecocruiser View Post
If you know anything about US politics, you know the President doesn't make the laws. Congress would have to take any blame here.
I'm glad to see your comment because when I was 18 years old i had to take a text to become an American citizen.

One of the questions was ( what are the three branches of the US gov.) ?

Then ( what does each one do ?)

After all these years, I still remember that ( The Legislative branch makes the laws ).

In other words Congress makes the laws.

TM
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Old August 20th, 2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
I'm glad to see your comment because when I was 18 years old i had to take a text to become an American citizen.

One of the questions was ( what are the three branches of the US gov.) ?

Then ( what does each one do ?)

After all these years, I still remember that ( The Legislative branch makes the laws ).

In other words Congress makes the laws.

TM
The difference is that you had to study and take a test. Many of the people born here were thinking about something else in Civics/Social Studies class and really didn't pay attention. They now believe what they want to believe.

Take care,
Mike
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Old August 21st, 2012, 07:24 PM
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Since I've been gone, this is one thread I've looked forward to contributing ever since I read Mike's Post.

As possibly with Mike, there are a lot of gun owners who will disagree but I personally agree with every single point he made and I have espoused the same damned thing for over forty years.

No one and I mean no one, should be allowed to possess or more especially, carry a handgun unless and until they can demonstrate most importantly, its safe handling along with Mike's other points such as the law as to when and under what circumstances it can be used against another human being.

New York law says it best when (to paraphrase although to this day I can actually quote the law (Article 35 of the New York State Penal Law)), that such a firearm can be used only in instances wherein any reasonable individual ("reasonable" being defined as, "that which the average, thinking individual would do in like or similar circumstances") may use it. You can of course defend yourself against what NYS law says is "Deadly physical force" and that is defined by he same law as, that force which could easily kill you or cause you severe bodily injury. There are other instances of course such as protecting the life of another (but not his property).

We did not even allow a recruit officer to so much as to literally touch a firearm until they had received a comprehensive course on the safe handling of all firearms. All modern (modern being defined as something from the late twenties or thirties onward) handguns including yes, even a revolver, " except I won't get into that here" have safeties either external or internal or both. Let's just say there is a man doing life in prison because of my testimony on the safety located in a revolver which just happened to be the same type weapon we used at the time as a service weapon. It took me a very short demonstration and I was on the stand less than ten minutes. If I were ever even cross examined I don't remember it simply because I don't think I was because had I been done so, the defense attorney would have only dug himself a hole from which he'd ever been able to extricate himself.
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Old August 21st, 2012, 07:34 PM
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No, no, no!
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