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  #61 (permalink)  
Old January 14th, 2012, 04:05 PM
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Tricky things these "mustard drills" need to be hot stuff....:-))
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old January 14th, 2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Truck Cruiser View Post
Seems to me that the officers that are supposed to be on duty on the bridge should of noticed something was wrong with the navigation equipment and avoided getting so close to the Island.

I know that today most ships are guided by GPS systems but come on! Someone is supposed to be on duty monitoring things.
I have posted this previously - I used to work for a shipping company which had one maritime accident - even with GPS. (The incident happened at night)

The investigation started immediately and w/o going into details - all of the navigational officers were immediately suspended and eventually dismissed for gross negligence. There were no exceptions.

I wonder if GPS makes navigational officers more complacent?

It is not a good analogy - but there have been motoring accidents/incidents where the driver followed the GPS and ended up in a ditch or river.

Bus drivers who attempt to drive their vehicle underneath a low bridge - a break in concentration is all that is required.

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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:16 PM
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Paul,


I was on a Carnival ship that did not do it's musterd drill for two days, much like this Costa ship. My question is rather Costa is now in legal trouble due to its failure to do the mandatory drills prior to this occurance. In the USA this would seem to be a trial attorney's dream case.
Costa is owned by Carnival?

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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:30 PM
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Costa is not only owned by carnival, but this ship's superstructure is identical to the Carnival Splendor which went dead in the water a couple years ago.

It was first reported that they had a power outage and the lights did go out - the question is what happened first.

It appears the ship hit something first, but the captain came on "the Tannoy" (aka PA system) and reported a power outage.

If there was a power outage the ships GPS could have been down, as well as the steering ability.

However - I don't buy into this. Witnesses reported a jolt first, and then the captain making an announcement.

The line says they were doing the same thing they have done every week for a year. That is easy to verify. In any case - they never should have been that close to any land mass, and furthermore they have underwater radar to warn them of hidden reefs (a Canadien ship hit an underwater reef in the Northern Passage last year)

To me, this appears to be some bad tomfoolery, an autopilot error, or a mysterious shift in underwater topology that went unnoticed until too late.

George - as far as the muster drill, as far as I can tell most news reports have it wrong. The cruise commenced on the 9th and Friday was its fifth day. I believe the muster drill was held on Monday. The reports about people joking "what if something happened before the drill" were jokes made before the drill was held, but had nothing to do with what eventually happened.

I think the confusion was a language problem (read my article on the front page) and the fact that half of the lifeboats became inoperable so the crew didn't know what to tell passengers.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:37 PM
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Maybe it is time to make a change in the procedures for picking up passengers only once per cruise and not at multiple ports. And to do as the ships do in the US which is to have muster prior to leaving the home port.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:46 PM
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I also think it's time to stop listening to passengers and do what's right. The changes to the muster drill (moving inside - no life vests) are because of whining from passengers. Maybe it's time the various cruiselines got off their collective other ends and start doing whats best/right not what's wanted.

Reports I've read so far, (and of course it's really early days) say crew had poor command of Italian, not trained properly, didn't really know what they were doing and there weren't enough of them.

That says to me - too much thought into bottom line and not enough into safety.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by anniegb View Post
Costa is owned by Carnival?

Annie

Yes it is and so far they've done a good job of keeping that out of the press. Even CNN has not mentioned that.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:48 PM
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I was thinking that there couldn't have been a worse ship to have this happen to than a Costa ship. With the multitude of nationalities on board and the number of languages being spoken it just added to the confusion.

I know that just about every cruise ship and voyage has a number of people speaking different languages but when there is one primary language that the majority of people understand others can interpret and help calm the people who don't understand. Also, when the vast majority of people are doing what they are instructed to do then others can follow the crowd instead of "winging it".

Nothing is worse than not understanding someone in an emergency.

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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:49 PM
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Well, you can be pretty sure FoxNews knows it is owned by Carnival Corp.

Did this cruise pick up additional passengers someplace - I don't know its regular schedule. I thought it originated on the 9th.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:00 PM
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I just read the official press releases from Costa - they say the captain was on the bridge when the incident occured and that he was about to establish evacuation procedures immediately - but that the list then happened right after - so he couldn't initiate regular evec procedures.

Update #2

HOLLYWOOD, Fla. (Jan. 14, 2012, 12:30 p.m. EST) — This is the latest statement issued regarding Costa Concordia by Costa Crociere’s Corporate Communications Department. According to Costa, this is the last statement that will be issued today, though updates will follow.

"I want to express our deep sorrow for this terrible tragedy,” said Gianni Onorato, President of Costa Crociere. “I am only now able to speak on behalf of Costa because, as you will understand, I have been at Isola del Giglio to be close to the rescue operations.

“First, I would like to thank all the authorities, law enforcement and volunteers who provided assistance to our guests and crew involved in this terrible event.

“We are not at this time able to answer all questions because the authorities are trying, with our cooperation, to understand the reasons for this incident.

“On the basis of the initial evidence — still preliminary — Costa Concordia, under the command of Master Francesco Schettino, was sailing its regularly scheduled itinerary from Civitavecchia to Savona, Italy, when the ship struck a submerged rock.

“Captain Schettino, who was on the bridge at the time, immediately understood the severity of the situation and performed a maneuver intended to protect both guests and crew, and initiated security procedures to prepare for an eventual ship evacuation.

“Unfortunately, that operation was complicated by a sudden tilting of the ship that made disembarkation difficult.

“Thanks to the commitment of the agencies coordinated by the Coast Guard, rescue operations have been continuing.

“From the moment we were alerted, Costa mobilized all its resources ashore to assist our guests and crewmembers, and to prevent potential environmental impacts.”
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:08 PM
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I am listening to cnn..it's 5 pm..The Captain could be charged with abandonment of ship, and manslaughter. He was off the ship long before the passengers and on one the first lifeboats..No muster.

They were 2 1/2 miles off shore, which saved many, they stated. Sme stuck in lifeboats for 45 minutes. They are still stating 3 loss of lives...to be updated as the search goes on...Amazingly sad and troubling.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:11 PM
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I just saw on CNN that the Captain has been arrested for manslaughter and abandoning ship. He left before all of the passengers were off the ship and accounted for. Supposedly he was going to organize the shore side rescue efforts. Hmmm... That is something the first officer, staff Captain or other senior officer should do.

It will be interesting to find out all the events that occurred, before, during and after the accident.

Take care,
Mike
Oddly enough, the latter charge is the more serious one.

The ship was 4 nm off course and was making a bee-line for the harbour until the rocks got in the way. Sounds like they had a problem with the voyage management system (the auto pilot).
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:38 PM
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I was wrong - I did not realize this ship takes on passengers in four ports - so those who boarded on the 13th had not had their drill yet.

It could not have been worse as far as timing goes.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:38 PM
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I know Italy's way of investigating is different, but from most reports I would say there was negligience here. If the master of the vessel was off as claimed, within the first couple of life boats then he darn well did abandon his charges and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:39 PM
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If they are going to take on passengers at 4 ports then there should be 4 muster drills. Simple as that..................
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Old January 14th, 2012, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TomS View Post
Oddly enough, the latter charge is the more serious one.

The ship was 4 nm off course and was making a bee-line for the harbour until the rocks got in the way. Sounds like they had a problem with the voyage management system (the auto pilot).
My theory is that the problems started before they hit the rocks. The navigation system went out or was severely compromised and they had limited control of the vessel. Pure speculation on my part but it explains why they would put the ship where they did.

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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:30 PM
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If they are going to take on passengers at 4 ports then there should be 4 muster drills. Simple as that..................
100% agree -I think there will be a major overhaul of the safety drills.

We had the tragic incidents in the UK with the Herald of Free Enterprise and Piper Alpha, in a very short period, which resulted in a major overhaul of safety measures.

I also think they should stop building such huge ships - imagine if it had been the Oasis or Allure? just does not bear thinking about.

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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:33 PM
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Default Two people found alive

Breaking news

2 people (man and woman) found alive on the Concordia according to news reports.

Fire Brigade have located them; a team of 35 are en route to rescue them.

2 people have been found on a deck 2 decks above the water line.

Annie

Last edited by anniegb; January 14th, 2012 at 06:42 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:54 PM
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Yes - here is how I see it...

The ship hit a rocky shoal someplace on the port side - that was the jolt.

Everyone says everything happened quickly.

Now - hitting the first rock and tearing the hull open is not what stopped the ship, it continued to coast along. First of all, the captain said he wanted to get closer to shore before evacuation.

Plus the power failed. Even if the ship had power it could not stop on a dime, the coasting would have continued but they may have been able to turn it or slow it down.

As the ship coasted forward it approached a land mass on its starboard side - the island which continued to slope in the same direction underwater as it does above water. When the ship hit shallower water the keel was pushed outwards; by the sloping underwater terrain so the top of the ship would tip towards the island.

In other words - the second contact with land, which was the first contact significant enough to stop the ship hit the keel first and the ship kept going forward - tipping more & more until it stopped.

Then, since it was already tipped to that side as more water flowed in it gathered on the side of the ship that was already tipped downwards, causing the ship to list more & more to starboard.

If you picture a ship straight up = |

and the | hits land: /

then you see the top of the ship tips towards the land, regardless of where the original tear occured. The tear was still enough underwater, although on the far side, for water to continue flowing in, and either that flow stopped, or it is possible the ship could have filled with water more and more and slid to the bottom of the underwater mountain that it hit.

This could have been far worse, actually, if the ship had been going faster when the same sequence of events occured (then the ship would have hit harder, the hull on the other side could have torn open and the ship could have filled with water instantly and slid to the bottom of the sea.

Or it is possible it is now sitting in a "saddle" of sand between two islands, in which case it is stable.

But I now understand why people jumped - the land was right there, and they saw that the ship could possibly fill up with water and sink.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:17 PM
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I have to politely disagree with the comments about the drills needing to return to the days of all the passengers packed together wearing life jackets. There is no evidence that method was better, in fact there is much documentation that putting people in a stressed situation (such as wearing life jackets and being sardined together on an open deck) reduces their attention span and therefore is adverse to providing training or instruction. I know what I am talking about. I provide training in industrial safety and radiation protection as a profession. The 'old' way has the appearance of being better, but that is all.

By and large, most passengers will be more attentive to the drill if they are not encumbered. Remember that these are passengers and not employees. The cruise lines have no realistic expectation that the passengers either listened or retained any knowledge. All they can do is comply with the law and trust that their crew will handle a situation if it arises.

That said, there is room for improvements in crew training and the stricter enforcement of conducting the passenger drills for ALL newly embarked passengers prior to leaving port. And it is apparent communication breakdown was a key element in this evacuation.

Regarding the Oasis/Allure...the rescue vessels (life boats) are positioned such that passengers directly board them from the deck with no need for repositioning them prior to lowering to the water. This is a superior design.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:21 PM
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I've been watching this unfold all day. If you recall this is the same ship we sailed on our Med. Cruise about 4 years ago from Civitavechia. The Concordia is a beautiful ship, and is a sistership to the Carnival Conquest class vessels. I actually liked the ship very much and loved the ports we visited. Other aspects of the cruise not so much... and of course had some mini debates with Paul Motter for a while on the Costa forum.

This unfortunate turn of events have brought memories flooding back to my mind.

A couple of odd circumstances... I forgot the name of the Captain on our cruise, but I do recall waking up at noon in Ciampino, Italy totally flabbergasted that we had overslept by more than 4 hours due to jetlag. Arriving at the train station in Ciampino only to find the next train to Rome wasn't until 2:00 p.m. and realizing we might miss the ship if we waited for that train. A man I was talking to in the train station happened to be a cab driver offered to take us to Termini (the huge train station in Rome) for 50 Euro, so we arrived about 30-40 minutes later as he showed us the aqueducts and other historic landmarks that I don't recall now. He dropped us off at Termini and gave me a big hug and a kiss on the cheek. I was so grateful for his help... I entered Termini and was totally overwhelmed by it's enormity, and I had to admit I had no idea which way to go to buy our tickets and I knew we were running out of time. Then there was a man who looked to be a vagrant/street person, and he asked me if he could assist me... I explained I needed tickets to Civitavechia and was running close on time... he instructed us to follow him... we probably walked the equivalent of at least 2 city blocks and we stopped at a long line leading up to a ticket booth.... BTW the paranoid fear this man was a pickpocket or a mugger was starting to subside... eventually we got to the ticket window where the gentleman acted as our interpreter and he obtained our tickets for us. I was admonished by him to run as fast as possible because our train was on the other end of Termini and leaving in 5 minutes. I handed him 10 Euro, and ran as fast as I could with kids and luggage in tow and as we arrived they were getting ready to close the doors and they loaded us and our bags up and we were on our way. a while later we arrived in the port city of Civitavechia and walked from the train station to the ship as a local gentleman hauled our suitcases on a dolly for 10 Euro... a bargain after our sprint through Termini lol... imagine our dismay when we arrived only to find out that our departure would be delayed until later that night because the Concordia had an accident the previous day in Palermo, Sicily that left a huge gash in her side and they were trying to do some repairs before we headed on to Genoa.

Anyhow I am so saddened by this latest tragedy. As I said I love the ship, I love the people I met there and it didn't surprise me at all when I heard these people opened their homes to the stranded passengers and some probably helped fish people out of the sea. But I somehow wonder how something this horrendous could happen. I also find it fascinating that the Captain and first officer are under arrest for abandoning ship, and how all this could have gone so wrong, so close to land...

I pray for those who were lost and those who were injured... and their families.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:39 PM
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I am also saddened by this news. I have a question. Many were dining, and could not get back to their staterooms. Are there life jackets in the dinningroom for those eating?
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
That said, there is room for improvements in crew training and the stricter enforcement of conducting the passenger drills for ALL newly embarked passengers prior to leaving port. And it is apparent communication breakdown was a key element in this evacuation.
Dave - I tend to agree. Concordia was a very rare situation and the problem was the timing of the scheduling - that many passengers had not had a lifeboat drill.

But even more important - the listing of the ship completely messed up the regular evacuation plan anyway.

Most important - details are still sketchy, but it appears the six shorts and one long (evac signal) was not sounded until 45 minutes after the ship ran aground. THAT caused the panic.

However - better training of the crew would have meant sounding the drill immediately and getting lifejackets on deck for everyone, including the people who jumped. Then people would not have been panicking so much about getting into a lifeboat (shore was practically in walking distance) or getting back to their staterooms to get a life jacket.

Better training of the crew would have meant the ability to tell everyone the ship was stable reducing panic. (I am assuming they knew this at a certain point).

This is a very odd situation, and certainly more details need to be revealed soon.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:55 PM
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All those storage bins, that look like benches, you see all along the Promenade deck are filled with life jackets. There are also life rafts in the things that look like white buoys.

One thing that all the major ships have is plenty of life jackets. The main thing is to make sure they have plenty of children, toddler and baby life jackets.

Take care,
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Old January 14th, 2012, 08:05 PM
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Yes: It is an odd situation and there are many questions that need to be answered. My biggest question is: "Why did they turn to port and towards the island?"

It had to be human or mechanical error. There is no reason they would turn west and head into the island. They would have turned west earlier or just went between the island and the coast.

Perhaps the Captain did some last minute manuevering that put them between the rocks but it is a place they never should have been. The Captain was trying to make the dock but made the problem worse.

Only time will tell.

Take care,
Mike
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Old January 14th, 2012, 08:20 PM
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Thanks Mike!!!
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Old January 14th, 2012, 09:10 PM
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From what I'm reading, the master of the vessel was on the second lifeboat to leave. Doesn't sound to me like someone who has the bet interests of the passengers at heart. Nor does it sound like someone who would see the crew/staff were properly trained.

Selfish is the operative word here.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 09:28 PM
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So many of us, for so long, have been immersed in the cruise biz, and, we all share such a love of cruising, and, the ships themselves, that to wake up to the vision of the Conordia, that way, was just shocking!

I hope the passengers are given everything they need, to make the trip back home, as easy as possible. The lost souls, and, their families need the collective prayers of everyone.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 10:21 PM
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The obvious Tragedy aside, Carnival stock anybody?
Lawsuits, hundreds of canceled sailings, etc. Is the line insured for all this? Can the half-billion dollar ship be repaired? Or scrapped? Do the pasengers get their stuff back, eventually? This will definitely hurt the cruise industry as a whole.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 11:30 PM
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What I don't understand that with hole of that size why the ship even started to sink? Also why did it roll away from the hole not towards the hole that would be normal? We aren't getting the whole story as to what happened on board that night.
Maybe the " Cruise Data Recorder " will say what the true story is?
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SS Ithaca , Volendam , Mariner of the Seas (x2) , Veendam , Coral Princess , Island Princess (x3) , Emerald Princess,Sapphire Sapphire (x3),Diamond Princess
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