Go Back   CruiseMates Cruise Community and Forums > Other Cruise Lines > Costa
Register Forgot Password?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default Making Cruising Safer

I've been having a few thoughts, about making cruising safer. It's kinda split into two sections; (a) preventing a disaster like this, and (b) ensuring that if this happes in future there are no casualties.

1: GPS Monitoring at Head Office
Costa have reported that the Captain was not authorised to sail so close to the island. I think that if there was a GPS transponder, reporting the ships location to head office, and the Captain had to answer for such deviations from course, then the Ship would have been much less likely to have been anywhere near the rocks.

2: GPS Monitoring compared to Navigation Charts
In this case, the GPS would monitor the ships position and velocity (including direction of movement), cross-referenced with the location of rocks, linked to a rotating light and bell in the bridge, might have dropped a hint to the Captain that steering the ship away might have been a good idea.

3: Working Lifeboats
Lifeboats shouldn't be designed for use in perfect conditions. It's actually in the most dire, and unpredictable circumstances that they're needed. Every shipboard employee, before they start their second contract should have gone through every imaginable ship movement, and weather condition on a simulator similar to ships actual movement. Similarly designers should use these simulators to see foresee problems launching the lifeboats.

4: Multi-function lifejackets.
Lifejackets already have a light ( and I believe a whistle ) for attracting attention. I think these should be enhanced with a transponder to help track down lifejackets instead of divers having to search cabin by cabin. If possible, I'd also like to see a feasibility study into including mini oxygen tanks in the lifejackets.

5: Safe Room
I think each Cabin should have a water tight safe room, with oxygen, food, water and communications equipment, where passengers trapped in their Cabins could take refuge.

6: Education
I think all cruisers should have to watch an engaging, and interesting safety video ( that they're likely to pay attention to ), before the ship leaves port.

What do you folks think?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 06:15 PM
HawkeyeFLA's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 417
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
I've been having a few thoughts, about making cruising safer. It's kinda split into two sections; (a) preventing a disaster like this, and (b) ensuring that if this happes in future there are no casualties.

1: GPS Monitoring at Head Office
Costa have reported that the Captain was not authorised to sail so close to the island. I think that if there was a GPS transponder, reporting the ships location to head office, and the Captain had to answer for such deviations from course, then the Ship would have been much less likely to have been anywhere near the rocks.

2: GPS Monitoring compared to Navigation Charts
In this case, the GPS would monitor the ships position and velocity (including direction of movement), cross-referenced with the location of rocks, linked to a rotating light and bell in the bridge, might have dropped a hint to the Captain that steering the ship away might have been a good idea.

3: Working Lifeboats
Lifeboats shouldn't be designed for use in perfect conditions. It's actually in the most dire, and unpredictable circumstances that they're needed. Every shipboard employee, before they start their second contract should have gone through every imaginable ship movement, and weather condition on a simulator similar to ships actual movement. Similarly designers should use these simulators to see foresee problems launching the lifeboats.

4: Multi-function lifejackets.
Lifejackets already have a light ( and I believe a whistle ) for attracting attention. I think these should be enhanced with a transponder to help track down lifejackets instead of divers having to search cabin by cabin. If possible, I'd also like to see a feasibility study into including mini oxygen tanks in the lifejackets.

5: Safe Room
I think each Cabin should have a water tight safe room, with oxygen, food, water and communications equipment, where passengers trapped in their Cabins could take refuge.

6: Education
I think all cruisers should have to watch an engaging, and interesting safety video ( that they're likely to pay attention to ), before the ship leaves port.

What do you folks think?
1) Feasable, but some reports have said that the impact happened mere minutes after the course deviation.

2) Could be interesting. Might be something to look at.

3) Davits can only extend so far. Not really sure where they could go with this one, but I am sure designers will be looking at it.

4) Now this one makes some sense. RFID is wonderful technology that could be utilized in a situation like this. With a caveat. There has to be a way to know that there is a person in the life vest before the chip starts transmitting. Otherwise divers would be finding every life vest on the ship. I am sure some kind of activation circuit based on the buckle would work. As for oxygen ... first it wouldn't be just O2. It would be a fairly standard mix of our breathable air. A basic "pony tank" could possibly give upwards of 30m of breathable air in an unpaniced person. Reduced when there is panic of course. But could this be enough time to make it out safely? Hard to say, but still something to consider. *Lots* of effort will have to go into inspection and maintaining of these pony tanks tho.

5) Seriously? And where do you propose to make this "room" inside of a 185 square foot cabin?

6) Doesn't matter how interesting it is, people that are going to ignore it will still ignore it. Happens on airplanes all the time, even airlines like Southwest that try and make it more entertaining.

Will things change because of this? Certainly. I can imagine that SOLAS standards might change to state that lifeboat drills must be conducted before the ship leaves port. There has been a lot of confusion on this one with some media outlets reporting that USCG requires this to occur before sailing. I sailed Costa (On the Atlantica) in 2009 out of Fort Lauderdale. Our lifeboat drill happened the second day. I was with a group of seasoned cruiser travel agents and they all commented on how odd it was, but still within SOLAS requirements of 24 hours.

What makes things more difficult with a sailing like the Concordia is that it would seem that she was embarking and disembarking passengers at numerous ports as she sailed around Europe. No true beginning and end like we are accustomed to here in the US (I'm guessing Passenger Service act as a reasoning for this).
__________________


Past cruises:

Disney Dream - Dec 2013 4n Bahamas
Disney Dream - Dec 2012 4n Bahamas
Carnival Imagination - Dec 2011 4n Western
Carnival Imagination - Nov 2010 4n Western
Costa Atlantica - Dec 2009 7n Eastern

My opinions are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the opinions of The Walt Disney Company nor any of its subsidiaries.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,874
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
I've been having a few thoughts, about making cruising safer. It's kinda split into two sections; (a) preventing a disaster like this, and (b) ensuring that if this happes in future there are no casualties.

1: GPS Monitoring at Head Office
Costa have reported that the Captain was not authorised to sail so close to the island. I think that if there was a GPS transponder, reporting the ships location to head office, and the Captain had to answer for such deviations from course, then the Ship would have been much less likely to have been anywhere near the rocks.

I am sure there are already web sites and other ways for cruise lines to know exactly where there ships are at any given moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
2: GPS Monitoring compared to Navigation Charts
In this case, the GPS would monitor the ships position and velocity (including direction of movement), cross-referenced with the location of rocks, linked to a rotating light and bell in the bridge, might have dropped a hint to the Captain that steering the ship away might have been a good idea.
This is a very good idea - they already have such technology on ships, I have seen the charts, radar and other equipment on bridges - there really is no reason for a captain to ever make such a ridiculous mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
3: Working Lifeboats
Lifeboats shouldn't be designed for use in perfect conditions. It's actually in the most dire, and unpredictable circumstances that they're needed. Every shipboard employee, before they start their second contract should have gone through every imaginable ship movement, and weather condition on a simulator similar to ships actual movement. Similarly designers should use these simulators to see foresee problems launching the lifeboats.
I agree - I believe that if there is any place we see changes it will be in the way lifeboats work. They need to have tracks to "lower" them to the water regardless of the angle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
4: Multi-function lifejackets.
Lifejackets already have a light ( and I believe a whistle ) for attracting attention. I think these should be enhanced with a transponder to help track down lifejackets instead of divers having to search cabin by cabin. If possible, I'd also like to see a feasibility study into including mini oxygen tanks in the lifejackets.
Its a possibility, but oxygen is an expensive and dangerous gas to keep around. I think this would be very expensive and sort of limited in return since you could only add maybe 30-minutes of air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
5: Safe Room
I think each Cabin should have a water tight safe room, with oxygen, food, water and communications equipment, where passengers trapped in their Cabins could take refuge.
Far too expensive. A great idea, but far too expensive. Keep in mind most ships sink, not get grounded and tilt over. So, if you had one of these there is a good chance you are just prolonging the fear and agony of someone who went down with a ship. A ship in a mile of water is not going to be reached by anyone for a month at the soonest if you look at the availability of deep sea submersibles. Plus - at that depth the pressure makes saving someone next to impossible even if you could reach them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
6: Education
I think all cruisers should have to watch an engaging, and interesting safety video ( that they're likely to pay attention to ), before the ship leaves port.
Many ships already do this.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default

I agree with # 5 and # 6
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeFLA View Post
3) Davits can only extend so far. Not really sure where they could go with this one, but I am sure designers will be looking at it.
True, but maybe there's a better way than using Davits.

Quote:
4) Now this one makes some sense. [snip] *Lots* of effort will have to go into inspection and maintaining of these pony tanks tho.
Agreed. Well worth it though, if it saves a single life.

Quote:
5) Seriously? And where do you propose to make this "room" inside of a 185 square foot cabin?
Yes, I'm serious. I agree though there are practical problems to be overcome.

Quote:
6) Doesn't matter how interesting it is, people that are going to ignore it will still ignore it. Happens on airplanes all the time, even airlines like Southwest that try and make it more entertaining.
There'll always be some people who ignore it. That's why my first thought was to have a cruising licence, that you need to pass an exam for. That would never fly though. Making it more interesting will however get more people to listen to it than who would otherwise.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 08:18 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default

A cruising license would be excellent .
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Palm Coast, Florida
Posts: 19,461
Default

How about hiring responsible, mature Captains who take their job and the safety of their passengers and crew seriously?

Is that asking too much?

TM
__________________
CRUISES
Century 4/1998
Mercury 4/2000+4/2006+7/2007
Sensation 4/2002
Infinity 4/2003
Summit 4/2004+4/2005
Carnival Liberty New Year's Eve 2007
Liberty of the Seas 5/2008+11/2009
Solstice 4/2009
Oasis 4/2010+4/13/2013
Allure 1/16/ 2011
Equinox 4/11/2011
Independence of the Seas 12/29/2013 Top-notch!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
Is that asking too much?
Evidently so.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 08:59 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,803
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

I'm sure when this Captain was hired, his credentials were such, that he ticked every box that should get ticked in the hiring process. Years of training,and working his way up the line, to become Captain

This issues have come into play, with his personality traits. In his case, it seems he was a braggart, a ladies man it seems, and, sadly as we now know, cowardly. It took this extreme tragedy to find out, what kind of man he is.

How exactly would Costa know these traits before they hired him?
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 09:59 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default another thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip View Post
I'm sure when this Captain was hired, his credentials were such, that he ticked every box that should get ticked in the hiring process. Years of training,and working his way up the line, to become Captain

This issues have come into play, with his personality traits. In his case, it seems he was a braggart, a ladies man it seems, and, sadly as we now know, cowardly. It took this extreme tragedy to find out, what kind of man he is.

How exactly would Costa know these traits before they hired him?
A requirement should be that every ships Captain go through psychological testing .
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Trip's Avatar
Moderator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 19,803
Send a message via ICQ to Trip
Default

Henry, that's a very good possibility that will become a new standard of hiring...time will tell.
__________________


Trip, with her book & tea!
Chat Hostess & Board Moderator


Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 10:24 PM
HawkeyeFLA's Avatar
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 417
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post

I agree - I believe that if there is any place we see changes it will be in the way lifeboats work. They need to have tracks to "lower" them to the water regardless of the angle.



Its a possibility, but oxygen is an expensive and dangerous gas to keep around. I think this would be very expensive and sort of limited in return since you could only add maybe 30-minutes of air.
Hadn't thought about tracks. Something like that, combined with pivot points to keep the life boat on an even keel.

It wouldn't be oxygen anyways. For the short amount of time you get from a tank that size anyways, the basic breathable air is all you need. Could be similar to the emergency pony tanks that divers carry with them. The lower the deck of the ship, the more required per cabin or person or whatever.

I still like the idea of RFID on life vests. Just curious to read more on what the effective range of the smaller ones can be. Again it has to be something that is activated when it's actually being worn. So a water trigger is a bad idea as suddenly there will be hundreds of false positives.

Just like the Titanic brought about so many SOLAS stuff, this event too will do the same. And while any loss of life is tragic, I still look at the fact that out of over 4000 people, the missing and deceased is such a low number.
__________________


Past cruises:

Disney Dream - Dec 2013 4n Bahamas
Disney Dream - Dec 2012 4n Bahamas
Carnival Imagination - Dec 2011 4n Western
Carnival Imagination - Nov 2010 4n Western
Costa Atlantica - Dec 2009 7n Eastern

My opinions are mine and mine alone. They do not represent the opinions of The Walt Disney Company nor any of its subsidiaries.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old January 24th, 2012, 10:58 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default Psychological testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip View Post
Henry, that's a very good possibility that will become a new standard of hiring...time will tell.

In the mid 60's I worked for a company that had about 5000 employees . They set up a department titled PQC (production quality control) .It was staffed by Psychologists who would imterview Senior Management employees to determine if they were fit for the job and the responsibilities of the job .To my knowledge no other company had this type of operation .It was a very sucessful operation .
Today a vast number of businesses have Psychologists on staff .
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old January 25th, 2012, 09:03 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 678
Smile

Theres no dout in my mind they know where there ships are at any given moment! Heck you can go to Princess web site and down load a bridge cam that will show you where their ships are at any given time. I dont understand Why all of a sudden everyone thinks someone needs to make cruising safer! It seems pretty safe to me. You can put all the saftey measures you can think of in place but there will always be the risk of stepping on a ship and heading out to sea. Do people really think that someone can make cruising 100% safe I dont think so. If you think thats going to happen then I feel you dont really understand the risk your taking in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 05:07 AM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhill View Post
Theres no dout in my mind they know where there ships are at any given moment! Heck you can go to Princess web site and down load a bridge cam that will show you where their ships are at any given time.
In which all they'd have to do, is keep track of such information, cross-reference it with approved course information, and have the captain account for any deviations.

Quote:
I dont understand Why all of a sudden everyone thinks someone needs to make cruising safer!
Sixteen people are dead. They might not be dead if safety on the Costa Concordia wasn't such a fiasco.

Quote:
It seems pretty safe to me. You can put all the saftey measures you can think of in place but there will always be the risk of stepping on a ship and heading out to sea.
So why not do that?

[ italics to addres the part I'm questioning ]

Quote:
Do people really think that someone can make cruising 100% safe I dont think so. If you think thats going to happen then I feel you dont really understand the risk your taking in the first place.
No. Mistakes will be made, but when mistakes cost lives, I think it's prudent to take reasonable steps to prevent such mistakes from happening again. Running the ship aground was only one mistake made on the Concordia.

Lack of proper safety drills ( or ANY safety drill for anyone who boarded in Civitaveccia ) was one of their earlier mistakes.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 06:57 AM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 678
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
In which all they'd have to do, is keep track of such information, cross-reference it with approved course information, and have the captain account for any deviations.


Sixteen people are dead. They might not be dead if safety on the Costa Concordia wasn't such a fiasco.



So why not do that?

[ italics to addres the part I'm questioning ]



No. Mistakes will be made, but when mistakes cost lives, I think it's prudent to take reasonable steps to prevent such mistakes from happening again. Running the ship aground was only one mistake made on the Concordia.

Lack of proper safety drills ( or ANY safety drill for anyone who boarded in Civitaveccia ) was one of their earlier mistakes.
Human error and lack of resonability will happen in every aspect of life.I agree the more saftey masures that are in place the better for everyone.Would proper saftey drills have made a diffrence? We could argue about that until the cows come home. Were their errors made, of course. Could the system have been better of course,should of their been lost of lives of course not. Is curising anyless safe then 2 months ago no. Will their be another terrible event involing a cruise ship Yes given enough time. Its the nature of the beast. You cant have thousands of ships on the ocean without something happening, People should realize that this form of transportation is not and never will be 100% safe I find it odd that some people say that they will not cruise again or that they think about their saftey while on a ship now, Heck you should of been thinking about your saftey the first time you set foot on a ship.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 12:06 PM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,874
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

I just posted a blog called "the exception that proves the rule." It says that what has been lost on the news media is that this is a big story solely because such events happen so rarely.

Now, I do agree we need to rethink evacuation procedures - to account for situations where the ship is listing badly. The whole premise of evacuation now is that it must be done from an upright position.

As to whether cruise lines know where all of their ships are at any given moment - I think they have the ability to see that - but to assume there is someone on land watching every captain and reviewing charts fulltime to see if he is about to hit rocks is a bit over-reaching.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 03:07 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhill View Post
Human error and lack of resonability will happen in every aspect of life.I agree the more saftey masures that are in place the better for everyone.Would proper saftey drills have made a diffrence? We could argue about that until the cows come home. Were their errors made, of course. Could the system have been better of course,should of their been lost of lives of course not. Is curising anyless safe then 2 months ago no. Will their be another terrible event involing a cruise ship Yes given enough time. Its the nature of the beast. You cant have thousands of ships on the ocean without something happening, People should realize that this form of transportation is not and never will be 100% safe I find it odd that some people say that they will not cruise again or that they think about their saftey while on a ship now, Heck you should of been thinking about your saftey the first time you set foot on a ship.
Not really sure what you're getting at there Dhill. Just because something is unlikely doesn't mean that reasonable steps shouldn't be taken to make it more unlikely. Furthermore just because something is unlikely to happen, doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared for when it does happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
As to whether cruise lines know where all of their ships are at any given moment - I think they have the ability to see that - but to assume there is someone on land watching every captain and reviewing charts fulltime to see if he is about to hit rocks is a bit over-reaching.
Such an assumption would indeed be unreasonable, but I don't think it's unreasonable to have a computer do it.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 03:31 PM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,874
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

It would be easy to tell captains they can only go on approved courses, but in fact part of the attraction of cruising is the fact that ships take you places you wouldn't expect to go on a cruise ship.

I have been in ships that navigate through Norwegian Fjords with just a few feet to spare on either side. But the point is that all of these trips are authorized with proper safety precautions already taken.

Ships go up the Amazon and Mississippi - two rivers famous for changing courses all the time - but they usually have local pilots onboard.

It is also important to give captains some autonomy. I was just on a music cruise with outside entertainment. A rainstorm came up, so the captain deviated the course a great deal to stay out of the weather as much as possible. As i said - airline pilots also do the same all the time.

The problem comes from captains taking unauthorized deviations to known dangerous places. This should not be allowed and when discovered that captain should be fired or disciplined. Schettino had a reputation for cowboy maneuvers - not a good thing.

It should be feasible to establish some guidelines for deviations where an independent navigator has to sign off on it, and he must also be on the bridge along with the captain to make certain all decisions are good ones.

But I still have to say that if cruise ship safety was as bad as many people are now implying - wouldn't we have a much worse safety record in cruising than we do have - like as bad as the airlines and highways, for example?

also - about the air tanks. Once again, they would only help in very limited situations. The problem on Concordia was that too many people were still below and didn't come to the upper decks. That was most likely a language barrier. They were still below when the ship listed sharply. If a ship is sinking in deep water (far more likely than what happened) the pressure would kill people before they ran out of air.

Listen - there are MUCH smarter minds than ours working on this problem. They have a system now that was just challenged by a situation they hadn't put into the calculations (a listing ship where 1/2 the lifeboats were disabled). They will come up with something to fix this.

Furthermore - a lot of this is going to come down to simple human error - not a system failure.

If the captain had sent an immediate mayday, if the abandon ship had been sounded earlier, if a check of all cabins was done immediately after hitting the rocks to get everyone out of the lower decks, ...

This tragedy could have been avoided by people making different decisions, and they were NOT following protocol. I think it is a little too early to presume the system is broken - it may by limited, but not necessarily broken.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 03:49 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ibiza
Posts: 502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry43 View Post
A requirement should be that every ships Captain go through psychological testing .
We already do that. There are over 500 Captains working on ocean going cruise ships today. One failed. Can you name any other industry in the world with a better record?
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Motter View Post
It would be easy to tell captains they can only go on approved courses, but in fact part of the attraction of cruising is the fact that ships take you places you wouldn't expect to go on a cruise ship.
Lol . I wasn't expecting to stop in Giglio, but yes - I get what you mean.

Quote:
But I still have to say that if cruise ship safety was as bad as many people are now implying
I'm not saying it's bad, but there are distinct things that need to be improved.

Quote:
That was most likely a language barrier. They were still below when the ship listed sharply. If a ship is sinking in deep water (far more likely than what happened) the pressure would kill people before they ran out of air.
I forgot to mention, teach the crew some basic safety phrases ( like get to the muster station ) in all relevant languages.

Quote:
Listen - there are MUCH smarter minds than ours working on this problem. They have a system now that was just challenged by a situation they hadn't put into the calculations (a listing ship where 1/2 the lifeboats were disabled). They will come up with something to fix this.
This is actually a situation I'm in at work on a reasonably frequent basis ( around once every couple of months ). The main difference is that a mistake on our part only costs some number of millions of dollars per minute of outage, as opposed to lives.

OK - I think people have gotten the wrong end of the stick here. I'm not suggesting that cruising is unsafe. What I'm suggesting is that we now have a wealth of experience, from a recent actual disaster that should not be allowed to go to waste.

For the example of the Captain deviating to avoid bad weather, then yes, that would be a legitimate reason for changing course, and he'd write it as such. These writeups would then be examined on a periodic basis, and if it was found ( for example ) that avoiding bad weather was a frequent source of deviations, then come up with a suitable safe protocol for carrying out that action. I'm not saying Captains shouldn't have autonomy. I'm saying they should be accountable for when use of that autonomy puts peoples lives at risk.

And yes; I agree that despite this captains flair for recklessness, it's a testament to the already high standards in the cruising industry, that it's taken 6 years ( I believe he was appointed Captain in 2006 ) for him to have a serious incident.

Any time my employer has a high severity incident, we go through each aspect of what went wrong to see what we can address to make sure that aspect doesn't go wrong again. This is all I'm doing here. I'm not trying to make any underhand inferences here.

I don't think it's ok to dismiss something as human error, and I fear that's what a lot of the relevant people will do. Neither do I think it's ok to crucify someone for human error, unless that person was legitimately negligent, but it is important to learn from that human error, and when lives are at state, make sure that human error never has the same consequences again ( or never happens again ).
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 04:20 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ibiza
Posts: 502
Default

16 people - and possibly another dozen or so - will have died in what most everyone is calling the "Costa Concordia Disaster". I agree that there is definitely room for improvement, to ensure that this sort of thing never occurs again on a cruise ship. My connections and colleagues in the cruise industry are formulating plans and procedures to create safer travel on ships in the future.

Just last year - just in the USA - over 250 people were killed on / by riding lawn mowers. If the 16 fatalities on Concordia was a disaster, what do we call the 250+ deaths EVERY YEAR on riding lawn mowers? And why isn't anyone doing or saying anything about it? This completely preventable Super Catastrophe (??) It is going to happen again in 2012.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Chafkin1 View Post
Just last year - just in the USA - over 250 people were killed on / by riding lawn mowers. If the 16 fatalities on Concordia was a disaster, what do we call the 250+ deaths EVERY YEAR on riding lawn mowers? And why isn't anyone doing or saying anything about it?
Good question - why aren't you doing anything about it?
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 06:57 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 678
Smile

What I am trying to get out is no matter how many saftey measures you put in place there will always be a risk when you take a cruise.I dont think for one moment that there should not be more and better measures in place.I personally doubt that any safety measures could of prevented this mishap.There was a break down of the system.A link in the chain was broken. And My opion that was the Captain of this Ship.We can all sit and secound guess him but when its all said and done he is the one left holding the ball.And I just hope that if there are more and better saftey measures put in place that people wont get to comfortable and forget about the risk you are taking!A month ago people were saying how safe cruising was and now all you hear is more saftey measures.But nothing has changed as far as saftey measures in the laST MONTH.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 07:17 PM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ibiza
Posts: 502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arion View Post
Good question - why aren't you doing anything about it?
Actually I am doing something - trying to make everyone aware of the problem.

But since I live on a cruise ship 8 months of the year - where we have no riding lawn mowers - and in China 4 months of the year - where we have no riding lawn mowers - I am not able to do much more about the problem.
But my colleagues and I are working very diligently to avoid the potential shipboard problems highlighted by the Costa incident.

Now that you are aware, it is up to you to make America a safer place.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old January 26th, 2012, 08:09 PM
Paul Motter's Avatar
Administrator
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: in my office!
Posts: 10,874
Send a message via AIM to Paul Motter
Default

And more people have died from lightning strikes in the U.S. than cruise ship accidents in the last 10 years (speaking in terms of U.S.-owned cruise lines)

The National Weather Service publication Storm Data recorded a total of 449 deaths from lightning strikes between 1998 and 2008. According to the National Weather Service, lightning causes an average of 62 deaths and 300 injuries in the United States each year.

Read more: Lightning Deaths 1998-2008 — Infoplease.com

Wht isn't anyone doing anything about that???? (wait, that's silly).
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old January 27th, 2012, 07:22 AM
Senior Member
Captain
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newport Oregon
Posts: 678
Smile

.I dont know all the stats and stuff but cruising is as safe today as it was always been maybe more so.This accident just brought the risk factor to light.If you felt safe taking a cruise A year ago you should feel the same way today.But you must realize there is always that very slight chance that something might happen.And god forbid if it does you would hope that there would not be a break down in the system like accured in this accident .I Feel if the Captain would of stepped up to the plate and did what he should of done the out come would of been a lot diffrent. So I feel the system is a good one you just have to figure the human factor into it
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old January 27th, 2012, 08:41 PM
Senior Member
Cruise Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Chafkin1 View Post
Actually I am doing something - trying to make everyone aware of the problem.

But since I live on a cruise ship 8 months of the year - where we have no riding lawn mowers - and in China 4 months of the year - where we have no riding lawn mowers - I am not able to do much more about the problem.
But my colleagues and I are working very diligently to avoid the potential shipboard problems highlighted by the Costa incident.
Can't ask fairer than that.

Quote:
Now that you are aware, it is up to you to make America a safer place.
I'll leave that to the Americans. I live in Europe, and I've only ever seen a ride-on lawnmower a couple of times.

Last edited by Arion; January 27th, 2012 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Fixing markup
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old January 27th, 2012, 10:45 PM
Senior Member
Admiral
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,199
Default Not quite the same but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Chafkin1 View Post
We already do that. There are over 500 Captains working on ocean going cruise ships today. One failed. Can you name any other industry in the world with a better record?

A woman that I know once told me that several years ago she was sexually harassed by the ship's CD .She filed a complaint with the ships Captain and nothing was done .
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old January 28th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Senior Member
First Mate
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 445
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeFLA View Post
1) Feasable, but some reports have said that the impact happened mere minutes after the course deviation.

2) Could be interesting. Might be something to look at.

3) Davits can only extend so far. Not really sure where they could go with this one, but I am sure designers will be looking at it.

4) Now this one makes some sense. RFID is wonderful technology that could be utilized in a situation like this. With a caveat. There has to be a way to know that there is a person in the life vest before the chip starts transmitting. Otherwise divers would be finding every life vest on the ship. I am sure some kind of activation circuit based on the buckle would work. As for oxygen ... first it wouldn't be just O2. It would be a fairly standard mix of our breathable air. A basic "pony tank" could possibly give upwards of 30m of breathable air in an unpaniced person. Reduced when there is panic of course. But could this be enough time to make it out safely? Hard to say, but still something to consider. *Lots* of effort will have to go into inspection and maintaining of these pony tanks tho.

5) Seriously? And where do you propose to make this "room" inside of a 185 square foot cabin?

6) Doesn't matter how interesting it is, people that are going to ignore it will still ignore it. Happens on airplanes all the time, even airlines like Southwest that try and make it more entertaining.

Will things change because of this? Certainly. I can imagine that SOLAS standards might change to state that lifeboat drills must be conducted before the ship leaves port. There has been a lot of confusion on this one with some media outlets reporting that USCG requires this to occur before sailing. I sailed Costa (On the Atlantica) in 2009 out of Fort Lauderdale. Our lifeboat drill happened the second day. I was with a group of seasoned cruiser travel agents and they all commented on how odd it was, but still within SOLAS requirements of 24 hours.

What makes things more difficult with a sailing like the Concordia is that it would seem that she was embarking and disembarking passengers at numerous ports as she sailed around Europe. No true beginning and end like we are accustomed to here in the US (I'm guessing Passenger Service act as a reasoning for this).
Not sure how much safer you can make cruise ships. Let's not forget that this accident was caused by a bonehead.

Cruise ships are designed today to stay afloat at least as long as it is required to evacuate. If the captain would have simply stopped and called for an evacuation everybody would have come off the ship safely. He even had the time to evaluate first.
But in a boneheaded move he stirred the ship back out to see before making bonehead move #4 (#1 hitting rock; #2 not stopping and evaluating or calling for an evacuation; #3 moving back out to sea) doing an anchor drop turn. Ship turns around its port side (only starboard anchor was dropped) and the water gushes in pushing the weight port side and the tilt began.
Bonehead move #5 was moving the ship sideways (starboard side first) into shallow water which completed the flip.

I doubt that there are any safety measures protecting against a captain with so many and so many crucial errors in judgement.

The buoyancy of cruise ships even with a total compartment hull failure are of utmost importance. We all are cruisers and we all remember sailing during high winds and high waves and we all felt how cruise ships uprighted themselves. They are tested on tilting and most cruise ships can recover from 15 degree (which is substantial) tilts with ease. Even with the loss of one or two compartments a cruise ship nowadays will survive with almost no tilt.

here is a copy of one of the life boat requirements:
Quote:
Rescue boat davits are destined for following actions:

  • defection of the boat with permissible number of persons from stowage position outside ship tilt to 20 on arbitrary ship side and trim to 10.
  • hoisting of the boat with 10 persons crew from the water to stowage position, when the ship has no tilt and no trim.
Just my thoughts.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
atlantica, bridge, captain, costa, cruise, decision, examination, lawn, making, mate, mower, protocol, psycological, riding, ship, ships, steering, system

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anything making you cranky now? Trip Chit - Chat for Cruisers 28 August 2nd, 2011 10:53 AM
High Time Govt Makes Sailboats Safer! ToddDH Chit - Chat for Cruisers 22 July 22nd, 2009 08:30 PM
Which is safer Disney or a cruise? katlady Chit - Chat for Cruisers 3 September 9th, 2008 04:36 PM
Poll question..which is safer? salem5050 Travel Gripes! 53 December 18th, 2003 05:13 PM
Are the ports any safer?? Thomas Travel Gripes! 4 October 11th, 2002 08:02 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:23 PM.
design by: Themes by Design

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1