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  #121 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 01:12 AM
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Floridanamaw

This remark by Rose is what upset me the most. I don't have a problem with obeying the dress code. What I have a problem with are the people that seem to think that they are so much better than you are because you desire to wear jeans. I have also met people that were dressed to the nines that were the rudest most arrogent people I have ever met.

I agree with you on this point. Indeed, I have a great deal of appreciation for farmers and ranchers who grow the food that we buy in our favorite supermarkets, for the auto mechanics who keep my Jeep in good running order, and for many other so-called "blue collar" workers whose occupations sustain modern life. Those who think themselves superior to another should reflect on what would happen if that other person were to disappear without replacement. In the extreme, think what would happen if the trash collectors suddenly quit and nobody collected our trash for a few weeks, or if the workers at the sewage treatment plant were to suddenly quit and nobody treated our sewage. If many professoinals were to walk off the job wihtout replacement, by contrast, very few people would notice because there would be no real impact.

The real issue here is that no matter how a person is dressed it is very unfair to judge them until you've had a chance to talk to them.

True, to a point. One crosses a line, so one's actions speak very loudly, when one dresses in a manner that's totally inappropriate for the function in which one is participating.

Norm.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 05:46 AM
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If you read a manual on social etiquette, you will discover that not conforming to the requested standard of dress is a personal affront both to both the host(ess), which is the master of the vessel on a cruise ship, and the other guests. That's not my opinion; that's the norms of our society -- whether you like them or not.

I always love this comment, the captain is not your host and you are not a guest, full stop. You are staying in a hotel albeit a floating one, and you are going to dinner. You can think what you like about being a guest and being good to your hosts. Do you bring them a gift as well, one is supposed to bring a gift for the host(ess) when invited to a party. Sadly the captain could not care less whether you attended in your tux or your pajamas.

Aha. I think that I see the root of your misconception. In this context, the term "suggested" carries an expectation -- and thus an obligation -- of conformance. In many organizations, "recommendations" flow up the chain of command while "suggestions" flow down the chain of command, and this context is no exception. The "suggestion" is in fact a polite phrasing of a direct order, with obedience expected.

Polite it may well be, but an order, and expected obedience, yes master! We shall all be dressed as you desire. Should we bow and scrape as well? I think not.

Hmm, my boss usually has no problems telling me what I need to do, and oddly enough he's never expressed it as a suggestion.

But for the clueless among us, at least one cruise line has changed the wording of its dress codes. Celebrity Cruises now states that the published dress code is "required" on the respective evenings. That should remove what you, and others, have miscontrued to mean that there was a choice.

This will mean as little as when it was not "required".

On my recent cruises, on Celebrity, the Maitre d' and the head waiters have turned away passengers who came to the dining room in jeans.

As I've said before this is anecdotal evidence. I've worn both jeans and no formal attire to dinner and been greeted with a smile each and every time. Which is as it should be.

Cheers,
Peter
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Old September 8th, 2006, 05:49 AM
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True, to a point. One crosses a line, so one's actions speak very loudly, when one dresses in a manner that's totally inappropriate for the function in which one is participating.


It is only inappropriate in your mind because you do not approve, no one else cares in the least. If they did it would not occur.

Cheers,
Peter
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 07:04 AM
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Default Regarding jeans topic in dining room

I tell ya, you guys are entertaining. I really enjoyed reading your comments. Well, gotta pack now, i swear no jeans in suitcase or underwear, lol
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 07:36 AM
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Default Re: Regarding jeans topic in dining room

Quote:
Originally Posted by christy008
I tell ya, you guys are entertaining. I really enjoyed reading your comments. Well, gotta pack now, i swear no jeans in suitcase or underwear, lol
No Underwear?????
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 07:41 AM
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Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. My comments about auto mechanics and farmers wearing jeans is an accurate one based on my child rearing years and only reflects my personal feelings on the subject, it is not a pompous, indignant, offensive statement. My parents and extended family were hard working laborers, i.e., firefighters, maids, retail, cleaning people, cooks, and, yes, farmers and fishermen. I was raised in the 30's and 40's where only mechanics, farmers, etc., wore dungarees, overalls and bluejeans and they were worn for their durability, not fashion. They didn't even make jeans for women at that time, if women wore jeans, it was men's jeans they wore. My parents never wore jeans and would not allow their children to wear jeans, they wanted something better for us, a better education than they had so we could enjoy a better lifestyle which they could never offer to us. I'm not denigrating farmers and auto mechanics, I'm simply stating that my parents would not allow us to wear jeans or slacks of any kind, for that matter. More and more posters are getting very aggressive and hostile with their comments. Stating your personal take on items in question are welcome but personal attacks are not. Please be respectful in your follow-up comments, this is not a venue for name calling and off-handed, irresponsible remarks.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 07:51 AM
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Default jeans in dining room topic

Jsut kidding, lol. Trying to see if people are awake
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 09:01 AM
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Default WHAT IS DRESSY?

My goodness. I had no idea this was such a hot topic. We saved for quite a while for a vacation and booked a cruise as a last minute idea (were really considering Rivera Maya) We have a fairly decent wardrobe of nice shorts/slacks and tops. I have a few simple summer skirts, which I thought would be fine, but now it looks like we have to find a whole new wardrobe. Didn't save enough for that! I'm not buying a formal gown that I will absolutely never wear again, and I'm sure my significant other doesn't want to pack a suit or rent a tux. I really was thinking of bringing a pair of jeans since we are cruising in Oct, and it might get cool in the evenings, but now I'm scared to. I think we will just skip formal night and hope we don't get kicked out of the buffet line. I really just wanted to cruise and relax and reconnect with my honey. Wasn't prepared to get dressed to the 9's every night and hobble around in high heels. Having never cruised before I was wondering about "sea legs" and "high heels". I only wear them maybe twice a year. Trying to walk in heels on a boat could be hazardous.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: Regarding jeans topic in dining room

Quote:
Originally Posted by christy008
I tell ya, you guys are entertaining. I really enjoyed reading your comments. Well, gotta pack now, i swear no jeans in suitcase or underwear, lol
Christy "the commando" 008.

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  #130 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosetattoo
Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. My comments about auto mechanics and farmers wearing jeans is an accurate one based on my child rearing years and only reflects my personal feelings on the subject, it is not a pompous, indignant, offensive statement. My parents and extended family were hard working laborers, i.e., firefighters, maids, retail, cleaning people, cooks, and, yes, farmers and fishermen. I was raised in the 30's and 40's where only mechanics, farmers, etc., wore dungarees, overalls and bluejeans and they were worn for their durability, not fashion. They didn't even make jeans for women at that time, if women wore jeans, it was men's jeans they wore. My parents never wore jeans and would not allow their children to wear jeans, they wanted something better for us, a better education than they had so we could enjoy a better lifestyle which they could never offer to us. I'm not denigrating farmers and auto mechanics, I'm simply stating that my parents would not allow us to wear jeans or slacks of any kind, for that matter. More and more posters are getting very aggressive and hostile with their comments. Stating your personal take on items in question are welcome but personal attacks are not. Please be respectful in your follow-up comments, this is not a venue for name calling and off-handed, irresponsible remarks.
That is the entire problem with this debate, you were raised with the impression that jeans are nasty icky horrible things that the lower classes wear. Unfortunately the rest of the world has moved on and does not share your view. You are most certainly entitled to your opinion as well. But that is all that it is, simply because you don't like them, doesn't mean that the rest of the world will change to suit your view. People who do like them, find them comfortable, and every bit as fashionable as chinos and khakis and other forms of trousers.

Cheers,
Peter
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: WHAT IS DRESSY?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janet H
My goodness. I had no idea this was such a hot topic. We saved for quite a while for a vacation and booked a cruise as a last minute idea (were really considering Rivera Maya) We have a fairly decent wardrobe of nice shorts/slacks and tops. I have a few simple summer skirts, which I thought would be fine, but now it looks like we have to find a whole new wardrobe. Didn't save enough for that! I'm not buying a formal gown that I will absolutely never wear again, and I'm sure my significant other doesn't want to pack a suit or rent a tux. I really was thinking of bringing a pair of jeans since we are cruising in Oct, and it might get cool in the evenings, but now I'm scared to. I think we will just skip formal night and hope we don't get kicked out of the buffet line. I really just wanted to cruise and relax and reconnect with my honey. Wasn't prepared to get dressed to the 9's every night and hobble around in high heels. Having never cruised before I was wondering about "sea legs" and "high heels". I only wear them maybe twice a year. Trying to walk in heels on a boat could be hazardous.
Janet, don't sweat it, and enjoy your cruise, don't even think about buying clothes just for the cruise that you would never wear again. There will be plenty of people who are dressed the same as you.

Cheers,
Peter
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 09:59 AM
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 11:26 AM
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janet - dont' worry too much about your wardrobe. For casual nights in all of the dining rooms you will be just fine in yours skirts, a nice pair of trousers with a nice blouse or jersey with a collar. Shorts are not allowed in any of the dining rooms or alternative(pay) restaurants during dinner hours. For your man he will be fine for casual nights dressed in Dockers type pants with a polo, button-down short sleeve, hawaiian print or jersey with a collar.
Each cruise line has a different standard of dress code, go to your cruise lines web site and find out.
As for formal nights - you don't need a fancy-smacncy ballgown. If you have a nice party or cocktail dress,or dressy pants with a silky or sparkly top you will be just fine. Your man will however at the very least need to wear a suit jacket, dress pants, dress shirt/tie & dress shoes.
I have never had a problem wearing heels on a cruise ship. The ships motion is very minimal.

This post has gotten wwwaaaay off of topic and is treading on very thin ice as to some of the comments. This thread will be deleted if the site manager sees fit.
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Old September 8th, 2006, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: jeans in dining room topic

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Originally Posted by christy008
This bond girl packs no undies on vacation


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  #135 (permalink)  
Old September 8th, 2006, 01:19 PM
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I don't wear jeans, because I find them uncomfortable. I prefer light weight dress slacks, but , if you prefer jeans, I applaud you.

I don't wear a tux, because I find it uncomfortable. I do wear a suit on formal nights but am ready to change to a nice polo shirt and dress slacks at the drop of a hat, which I don't wear.

I do wear fruit of the looms because they don't take up much room in my suitcase. I do believe that underwear is optional on cruise ships, except for, perhaps, Celebrity.

I could care less what anyone else wears. I prefer to look at what is on my plate instead of the other diners.

I have looked at several brochures to see what they say about baseball caps and jeans. Princess mentions "torn" jeans as not being appropriate, but I could find no reference to jeans at all in either the RCI or Carnival brochures. Also, caps are not discussed. There was no mention of anything being required, only suggested. I don't possess a current Celebrity brochure.

I think cruises should be casual, relaxed vacations. I really do have sympathy for those of you who are offended by the attire of others.

Live and let live and you will live longer whether be ye low class, high class or in between.
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old September 9th, 2006, 10:54 PM
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Peter,

I always love this comment, the captain is not your host and you are not a guest, full stop.

No, you are absolutely wrong on that point. A person who pays to stay at a hotel is a guest. A patron of a restaurant is also a guest. Either has the right to refuse anybody who refuses to comply with its rules.

Do you bring them a gift as well, one is supposed to bring a gift for the host(ess) when invited to a party.

A gift is not required when one pays one's own way, as for example at a "subscription" event.

Sadly the captain could not care less whether you attended in your tux or your pajamas.

Whatever happens aboard any vessel is within the perview of the master.

Norm.
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Old September 9th, 2006, 11:28 PM
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Janet,

Welcome to the world of cruising!

My goodness. I had no idea this was such a hot topic.

Well, it's more of a culture clash between the socially proper, who expect conformance to established norms of social etiquette, and the socially ignorant, who want to do their own thing with no regard for anybody else.

We saved for quite a while for a vacation and booked a cruise as a last minute idea (were really considering Rivera Maya) We have a fairly decent wardrobe of nice shorts/slacks and tops. I have a few simple summer skirts, which I thought would be fine, but now it looks like we have to find a whole new wardrobe. Didn't save enough for that!

You did not say on which line you are cruising, and the standards of dress do vary considerably from one line to another. The attire that you describe is appropriate during the daytime and for "casual" evenings on most, if not all, lines. Some of the "premium" cruise lines still have "semiformal" or "informal" evenings in addition to the "formal" evenings, but the "mainstream" lines and a couple of the "premium" lines dropped the "informal" or "semiformal" evenings several years ago.

I'm not buying a formal gown that I will absolutely never wear again, and I'm sure my significant other doesn't want to pack a suit or rent a tux.... I think we will just skip formal night and hope we don't get kicked out of the buffet line.

I really hope that you won't skip the "formal" evenings, as they are one of the most memorable experiences of a cruise. The "formal" evenings are the nights when the cruise lines pull out all the stops with the best menus and special touches in the dining room, the best shows, and special events that don't occur on other evenings.

I'm not aware of any cruise line that requires a formal evening gown for the "formal" evenings. In fact, you probably have a nice dress or two that would be suitable. The nice dresses that you wear to weddings, funerals, baptisms, bar/bas mitzvahs, the office Christmas party, and other special events. All of the major cruise lines have adopted a "modified formal" standard of dress in which gentlemen can wear dark business suits, and some lines are somewhat more expansive than that.

I really was thinking of bringing a pair of jeans since we are cruising in Oct, and it might get cool in the evenings, but now I'm scared to.

Jeans and shorts are fine for wear during the daytime, except that some cruise lines do not allow jeans in the main dining room even at breakfast and lunch (which most passengers eat at the buffet or the grill). Depending upon your itinerary, you might want jeans for some of your activities ashore.

I really just wanted to cruise and relax and reconnect with my honey.

In that case, I would think that you would want to participate in the formal evenings. They tend to be the most romantic.

Wasn't prepared to get dressed to the 9's every night and hobble around in high heels.

There's no need of dressing to the nines every night. Most cruises of seven nights have only two formal evenings, when many passengers really do dress to the nines.

If you have difficulty walking in high heels, don't wear them. Standard pumps with a modest heel, or even dressy flats, would be equally sppropriate.

I was wondering about "sea legs" and "high heels". I only wear them maybe twice a year. Trying to walk in heels on a boat could be hazardous.

There's a big difference between a ship and a boat. Modern cruise ships are big enough not to be very susceptible to wave action and additionally have dynamic stabilizers that counter it. The result is very little motion. In fact, you may feel more motion in your own living room when a heavy truck drives by your home than you will feel, under normal conditions, on a cruise ship!

But, again, don't wear heels if you are not used to walking in them.

Have a great cruise!

Norm.
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Old September 9th, 2006, 11:45 PM
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Peter,

Unfortunately the rest of the world has moved on and does not share your view.

Beware of the influence of self-selection in your view of "the rest of the world." By "self-selection," I'm referring to the fact that you probably tend to hang out with people who wear jeans all the time -- and that's fine. Nonetheless, the people with whom you "hang out" are not necessarily reflective of other social circles. When the subject comes up on these boards, the participants seem to be split about 50%/50%. The split on these boards is probably more reflective of the cruising population than your circle of friends.

In any case, there's a clear cultural divide between one group who still follows traditional social etiquette and another group that follows your modern standards. I honestly do not believe that any cruise line can satisfy both groups. Rather, each cruise line must make a conscious decision to cater to one group or the other, then set and enforce the corresponding standards.

Norm.
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Old September 10th, 2006, 02:14 PM
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Well said, Norm.

Janet H....don't run out and purchase a whole new wardrobe, the clothes you described will be absolutely fine. No one in our group of cruisers wear gowns on formal night. I'm partial to palazzo(sp?) pants (don't wrinkle and don't take up much room in my luggage) which I can wear with two different sparkly tops, one pair of dressy, black, shoes (mine have 2" heels), a clutch bag, inexpensive earrings and I'm out the door, very comfortable. The teenage girls love to get all dressed up in their Prom dresses and have their hair done onboard and they look lovely and I applaud them for taking the time to think it through prior to setting sail but a large portion of the passengers wear their "little black dress" and are very comfortable and dressy enough to comply with the dress code but not overly dressy. As far as non-formal nights in the dining room are concerned, slacks with a nice top, sundress, skirt and blouse, etc., are all appropriate and, yes, you will see jeans in the dining room. When eating at the buffet, you can wear just about anything, people are in there in their bathing suits with a towel wrapped around them, it's very casual.

Peter, I'm not trying to change the world, that's only your interpretation of my statements. I am well aware that the rules have changed since I was young but I don't necessarily think that they are for the better. Your remarks are still pushing the envelope.
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Old September 10th, 2006, 02:14 PM
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Again...I think that Norm (Rev) has the most balanced answer for Peter and Janet, and I agree with most of his reply

Janet: Yup, this is a hot topic. If you look at this topic and the answers verses the views...you will see that a lot of cruise passengers are interested even though they don't post.

It happens to be one of the most fun and most revealing of topics because it is such a CLASH of social manners and customs! It's entertaining and can get you to thinking.

Most everyone who posts on CruiseMates are fellow fun cruiser's...who'd I'd enjoy personally meeting...Why? Because you can tell they're nice people...who dispite our differences in social customs and expectations , wouldn't shun or be rude to anyone!

Enjoy your cruise...
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Old September 19th, 2006, 11:48 AM
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Sorry, but there is some serious rudeness posted here. And, just because someone claims that they would never, ever be rude in person does not reassure me that I would want to eat even a single meal with them.
It might make for interesting conversation, but now that some poster(s) insist that they and only they have the right to make highly inflammatory, critical remarks because they "think" they know what the rules of etiquette are, I think I would prefer never to have any social contact with them. You can learn rules from a book, but not grace or courtesy and definitely not the subtle nuances of true classy etiquette.
Marty
P.S. I intended to spend my energy on a review of our cruise last week, but I'm pretty fed up with the tacky flaming debates on this group.
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Old September 19th, 2006, 06:48 PM
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The only time I would even consider the Captain my host is if he personally knocked on my cabin door and invited me to be a guest at his table. I would not consider him my host if I am in the opposite dining room at a different seating. Actually I don't consider him or the cruise line my host as this has been bought and paid for. Ok let everyone start to jump all over that !! You are always waiting in the wings and you know who you are : ) These topics have gone from the fashion police to the etiquette police and it is always the same people who feel they know all the right rules on these subjects. I feel bad for the people who read these boards and have not cruised yet. I would be petrified to go on one after reading all this negativity! These boards are supposed to be fun and informative instead they have become negative and judgmental. I know what you will post next... your only trying to educate people as what to expect so they do not embarrass themselves. WRONG !! I think you just want to let everyone know how much you know about the rules of etiquette. OK you win, you know the most !!! Let it rest, please !!!
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Old September 19th, 2006, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colorcrazie
Sorry, but there is some serious rudeness posted here. And, just because someone claims that they would never, ever be rude in person does not reassure me that I would want to eat even a single meal with them.
It might make for interesting conversation, but now that some poster(s) insist that they and only they have the right to make highly inflammatory, critical remarks because they "think" they know what the rules of etiquette are, I think I would prefer never to have any social contact with them. You can learn rules from a book, but not grace or courtesy and definitely not the subtle nuances of true classy etiquette.
Marty
P.S. I intended to spend my energy on a review of our cruise last week, but I'm pretty fed up with the tacky flaming debates on this group.
I've posted and have been flamed too...but why take it so seriously?
Everyone has their own opinion...and some express those opinions rather strongly...but all in all...and I've re-read some of the post...I don't think they are 'highly inflammatory' or overly critical...they're just another person's opinion...an 'opinion'...not scripture.

Personally...I like reading opinion's that differ from mine...a much more interesting world....I would be sorely disappointed if everyone agreed with me. (and more than a little worried!)

I have the freedom to accept or reject them... without taking it personally...it's just no big deal. If we happen to disagree, even strongly, I'm certainly not going to let that impact my life, cause me to change my vacation plans, or any plans for that matter. I mean, in the final analysis...it's really my opinion of myself that matters...

If I decide I don't want to play anymore...it isn't going to be because someone's opinion differed from mine...no matter how strongly or tactlessly they express it.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 01:36 AM
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CWolsten,

The only time I would even consider the Captain my host is if he personally knocked on my cabin door and invited me to be a guest at his table. I would not consider him my host if I am in the opposite dining room at a different seating.

Whether you like the fact or not, a ship is, de facto, the master's vessel in the same sense that the house, apartment, or condo in which you live is your home. The master has the right to bar anybody from coming aboard or to disembark anybody -- forcibly, if necessary -- in any port of call. Thus, from a standpoint of social etiquette, the master is the host to all aboard.

Actually I don't consider him or the cruise line my host as this has been bought and paid for.

The "bought and paid for" does not enter into the picture at all. If you read your contract of passage, you'll find not only that your contemptuous attitude is sufficient reason for the master to throw you off the ship, but also that there will be no refund in such a case.

Norm.
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Old September 20th, 2006, 06:16 AM
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As I said before.... YOU WIN, YOU WIN, YOU WIN !!!!
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Old September 20th, 2006, 11:35 AM
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If I told the Captain that I did not consider him my host, would he then throw me off the ship? Oh, woe is me!
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Old September 20th, 2006, 06:28 PM
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Paul B. He would throw you off after you have paid for the picture he wants taken of it : )
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Old September 21st, 2006, 01:07 PM
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Fieldmouse,
Do you really think that I would withdraw from a dialog because someone did not agree with me? :o Not a chance. I, too, would be scared silly if everyone agreed with me. Plus, you don't learn anything new that way.

My objection here is two-fold. Philosophically, it bothers me a lot that newbies read these threads about threads and get scared off or go into a panic about what to wear. And, there have been posts here where people have had that reaction. I really don't think that most people are trying to get away with anything re. dress codes. Yes, some do and they are obnoxious. But, there are more who truly look for advice here and end up thinking that they either should not go on a cruise at all or have to choose a specific cruise line or have to spend money that they may or may not have on clothes that they may never wear again. Is that MY reaction? No. If anything, I tend to overdress for all occasions and I own enough cruise formal wear that I would have to go on a really, really long cruise to need it all. I love those formal nights.

My personal objection to the flaming is simpler. A dialog is about an exchange of ideas. When someone merely repeats, endlessly, the same pseudo-elitist dogma, I find it tedious and boring. We're now to the point where even the insults are repetitious. And that really bores me. Dialog involves agreeing and disagreeing based on specific points. That does not seem to happen here at all. I totally agree with you that I am not worried about the opinion of me that someone whom I don't even know has. I don't even worry much about the opinions of people whom I am close to. I do listen to all input, but, I have to respect someone before I take what they say to heart.

I know that social etiquette matters, but it is not as simplistic as is sometimes presented here. And, it is my opinion that kindness and truly trying to help people is a LOT more important. Helping people should NEVER be confused with telling them that they will be made to feel bad if they do not conform to a code that really has nothing to do with reality. Cruises aren't about the "real world". That's the reason they make such great vacations!
Marty
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Old September 21st, 2006, 01:22 PM
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Well said Marty. What started out as a simple question has gotten waay out of hand, this topic should have been closed a long while ago. I have tried to steer it back but my efforts have been in vain, so i give up and kiss this topic goodbye. I will not respond to this thread any longer.
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Old September 22nd, 2006, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaK
Well said Marty. What started out as a simple question has gotten waay out of hand, this topic should have been closed a long while ago. I have tried to steer it back but my efforts have been in vain, so i give up and kiss this topic goodbye. I will not respond to this thread any longer.
Is there a Cruisemate thead guideline we can refer to?

Something like:

1. Comments and responses should be short and to the point...
2. No negative comments or observations if there's chance they might offend someone.
3. Feel good observations preferred.

Is there someone like a 'thread police' who screens our postings? If there's guidelines or thead rules stating what we can write or not...I'd like to know. (other than the obvious of course!)

I'm serious!
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