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Old January 22nd, 2007, 11:42 PM
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Default Drinking age on LEGEND

We have a large group of family going on the Legend 1/27/07 and my son's friend won't be 21 .His birthday is 2 wks after the cruise. How strict are they?[/i][/b]
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Old January 23rd, 2007, 10:03 AM
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he will not be served. His sign and sail card will be restricted
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Old February 20th, 2007, 06:49 PM
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but.. if he looks 21 if you buy him a drink I'm sure they wont card him to see if he is 21.
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3/31/07-Carnival Liberty(Eastern Caribbean)
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Old February 20th, 2007, 08:56 PM
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KTS1193,

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Originally Posted by You
but.. if he looks 21 if you buy him a drink I'm sure they wont card him to see if he is 21.
And if "they" find out, you will be leaving the ship in the next port and possibly barred from ever cruising again on the line.

It really is not worth the risk.

Norm.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 09:04 PM
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he can def. drink it in his room then.
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4/4/05-Carnival Fascination(Keys & Cozumel)
3/31/07-Carnival Liberty(Eastern Caribbean)
4/5/08-Liberty of the Seas
4/4/09-Independence of the seas
4/3/10- Carnival Dream
4/2/11-Oasis of the Seas(Western Caribbean)
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Old February 20th, 2007, 09:29 PM
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Tsk, tsk. So many people want to get around the rules. They scream that they are being discriminated against when they are the ones wanted to violate the law but... when they are the ones that are violated, they want the world to stop and bring the transgressors to justice.

Something like... "Hey, I can drink whike I am underage, but don't you break into my cabin, steal my card and use it to buy drinks or other expenses."

A question I have of you... you state the young man is a "friend" of your son's. Does that mean that the young man's parents aren't going along? And if so, then you are going to contribute to his delinquency? How would his parents feel about you being so "free" with their son?

It appears that, yet again, an adult wants to be their child's "best friend" and do whatever they can to make them happy. Just say....NO!
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Old February 21st, 2007, 02:34 AM
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Norm and Micheal are completely correct.

Is it really worth taking the chance that you, and everyone involved, could be put ashore, have to pay your own way home, miss out on the enjoyment of your cruise, and sacrifice everyone's happiness, all so that one underage person can consume alcohol?

The cost/benefit ratio isn't in your favor.

Besides, alcohol isn't that big a deal -- and he'll be 21 soon enough.

Dean
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Old February 21st, 2007, 08:04 AM
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KTS1193,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
he can def. drink it in his room then.
Again, if the staff find out (i. e. smell alcohol on his breath when he goes out about the ship after drinking in the cabin), the next port of call may well be the end of somebody's voyage.

Mom and Dad need to be the parents in this situation -- and that means saying "NO!" when "NO!" is the appropriate thing to say. He can drink ashore in the ports of call where he is legally "of age."

Of course, if it's a question of two or three weeks, the better solution would be to reschecule the cruise for a date after the lad's twenty-first birthday. If he's "of age," there's no problem.

Norm.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 01:58 PM
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I agree. This is one law, not rule, that you need to honor. The fact that he will be just 2 weeks shy of being old enough to drink legally does not mean that there would not be the same consequences as if he was 2 years underage. Also, you are teaching him that is okay to break the law if he doesn't get caught. I would be furious with someone who decided to educate my child that way. (If I had a kid.)
Marty
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Old February 21st, 2007, 04:23 PM
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On some cruise ships 18 year olds through 20 year olds can drink with their parents permissiosn..

or so i've read!

but not carnial.. i think princess does.
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7/30/01- Carnival Ecstasy(Catalina & Ensenada)
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4/4/05-Carnival Fascination(Keys & Cozumel)
3/31/07-Carnival Liberty(Eastern Caribbean)
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Old March 11th, 2007, 06:11 PM
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Wow...harsh opinions here.

I'm 20... I support myself, buy my cruises, my boyfriend (who is 24) and I are not obnoxious, loud, or ever a problem. He buys the drinks when we cruise, and we have never had an issue. No one even bats an eye.

I have seen problems though when kids get rowdy. Have yet to see anyone get kicked off a ship, but they are reprimanded.

If he is calm, responsible, not flaunting his drinks and just acting mature and normal (and he doesn't look very young) you won't have a problem. But keep in mind if they act like drunk young men can... it's on you if there is a problem.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 09:04 PM
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SabrinaMaree,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Wow...harsh opinions here.

I'm 20... I support myself, buy my cruises, my boyfriend (who is 24) and I are not obnoxious, loud, or ever a problem. He buys the drinks when we cruise, and we have never had an issue. No one even bats an eye.

I have seen problems though when kids get rowdy. Have yet to see anyone get kicked off a ship, but they are reprimanded.

If he is calm, responsible, not flaunting his drinks and just acting mature and normal (and he doesn't look very young) you won't have a problem. But keep in mind if they act like drunk young men can... it's on you if there is a problem.
No, not harsh at all. We can debate the merit of the cruise line's stated policy if you wish (I personally don't like it, and I'm well past twenty-one), but that really is a separate issue. I think that a better policy would simply be that anybody who becomes disorderly leaves the ship in the next port, whether drunk or not.

But the cruise line does own the ship, so we all need to follow the cruise line's rules while aboard the ship whether we like, or agree with, those rules or not.

BTW, most of the major cruise lines marketed in North America have raised the drinking age aboard their vessels from eighteen to twenty-one in the past few years. I don't know whether this action is in response to pressure from some government agency or in response to problems with roudy college students on spring break, but it has been accompanied by changes in policy regarding acceptance of bookings from adults who are under twenty-one.

Norm.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev22:17

No, not harsh at all. We can debate the merit of the cruise line's stated policy if you wish (I personally don't like it, and I'm well past twenty-one), but that really is a separate issue. I think that a better policy would simply be that anybody who becomes disorderly leaves the ship in the next port, whether drunk or not.

But the cruise line does own the ship, so we all need to follow the cruise line's rules while aboard the ship whether we like, or agree with, those rules or not.

BTW, most of the major cruise lines marketed in North America have raised the drinking age aboard their vessels from eighteen to twenty-one in the past few years. I don't know whether this action is in response to pressure from some government agency or in response to problems with roudy college students on spring break, but it has been accompanied by changes in policy regarding acceptance of bookings from adults who are under twenty-one.

Norm.
I believe it had to do with disorderly behavior...I know in several cruise lines the age of the adult in the stateroom increases during spring break weeks.
We can't go on Carnival, because of their age restrictions (not that I think I am missing anything, I did one sveral years back and was not impressed).
However, my life isn't based on following the rules, so I will continue not doing so Drinks are where the cruise ships make money...our bill last year was almost equal to one of our rates.
A ship that included all you can drink in the price (definetley would have to be an all 21 plus ship) I think would do quite well.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabrinaMaree
I believe it had to do with disorderly behavior...I know in several cruise lines the age of the adult in the stateroom increases during spring break weeks.
We can't go on Carnival, because of their age restrictions (not that I think I am missing anything, I did one sveral years back and was not impressed).
Carnival had a reputation for quite a "frat party" atmosphere when I started cruising (not quite a decade ago), and thus became very popular with "spring breakers." In the line's view, the "spring breakers" were driving away other customers who spent a lot more money on purchases other than alcohol, so the line instituted policies to keep them away. The more refined lines, like Princess and Celebrity, had much less of a problem, and only recently have started tightening policies on consumption of alcoholic beverages by young people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
However, my life isn't based on following the rules, so I will continue not doing so
I'm sorry that your parents did not teach you to follow the rules. Sooner or later, the day will come -- and you can mark my words on this -- when your failure to follow the rules will land you in very deep trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Drinks are where the cruise ships make money...
Well, the cruise lines certainly are not selling drinks at a loss, but drinks are only one of many places where the major cruise lines make money. They also make plenty on the ship's shops, casinos, art auctions, bingo, shore excursions, video games, and many other activities about the ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
... our bill last year was almost equal to one of our rates.
Putting on my hat as a pastoral minister for a moment, my instinct is that anybody who is spending that much on booze probably needs to go directly to a rehab clinic. Or, said another way, anybody who cannot party without beverages containing alcohol has a serious problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
A ship that included all you can drink in the price (definetley would have to be an all 21 plus ship) I think would do quite well.
There are such ships. Of course, their cruise fares are about two to four times what you would pay on a line that charges separately for alchoholic beverages.

Norm.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 09:58 PM
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Norm isn't it amazing how freely some of the youth will brag about their desires to violate policies, restrictions, even laws? That is why our country is in trouble now, too many people are too interested in the freedoms to violate said issues and that is why we were attacked so easily by terrorists and are open to it still. KIDs, and, YES, I said KIDS, wake up!!!
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Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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Old March 20th, 2007, 11:08 PM
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mehawk,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Norm isn't it amazing how freely some of the youth will brag about their desires to violate policies, restrictions, even laws? That is why our country is in trouble now, too many people are too interested in the freedoms to violate said issues and that is why we were attacked so easily by terrorists and are open to it still. KIDs, and, YES, I said KIDS, wake up!!!
Well, they miss the point that with every freedom comes the responsibility to use that freedom prudently and not in a manner that's injurious to themselves or to others. In reality, though, the bigger problem is non-parents -- people whose children are "out of control" because parents fail to provide the discipline and guidance that children need to develop real maturity.

As to the "9/11" attack, the bigger problem was a failure to take care of business in the past. It's a problem that really began when the headquarters of 2nd Battalion 8th Marines got hit with a truck bomb while deployed at the airport in Beirut in 1983, and the President opted to withdraw our forces rather than sending in more forces to hunt down the bad guys, that was exacerbated by another President's decision to withdraw our forces from Somalia when the going got tough there in 1993 and subsequently decided not to hunt down the bad guys who attempted to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993, bombed several of our embassies in 1995-1998, and nearly sunk one of our Navy's ships in 2000. So now the going in the hunt for the bad guys is a lot tougher than it should have been....

The objective is to swat the mosquito before its bite delivers a case of malaria, or eastern equine encephilitis, or some ohter nasty disease rather than after. The lesson is the age-old saw about a stitch in time.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Norm.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 01:30 AM
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Cruised more times than I can remember.

Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Courage and perserverance have a magical talisman; before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into the air.

Pick your company wisely! Hang around people who are going to help you become all God created you to be.
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Old March 21st, 2007, 01:35 AM
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The past is what I was referring to, as well as the present and future. People choose to think that it is ok to violate the rules as long as it is to their own benefit. But, the other side feels like they were violated. Then vice-versa.... Politics. Why can't we just all get along, follow our guidelines and be happy?
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Cruised more times than I can remember.

Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Courage and perserverance have a magical talisman; before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into the air.

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Old April 5th, 2007, 10:06 PM
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First I'd like to say, I attend a very prestigious college, on a full scholarship, I work full time even though I have no economic need to at this point, I have a down payment on a house, I completely support myself and spend more than the very frugal baby boomers I've seen on cruises. I've lived in a foreign country totally by myself (where the drinking age was coincidentally much lower), and I am a contributing member of society with an extremely bright future.
And oh my goodness, I drink on cruise ships! I'm sure that invalidates every other achievement I've accomplished.
I kindly suggest you worry about yourselves instead of suggesting that someone will ruin their life by breaking the rules. If we didn't break the rules, the Unites States would not exist.
So, have you sped? Gotten a ticket? Breaking the rules. Make the sky fall down and castrate you.
If I am intruding on your happiness, I apologize. I hope you get the stick out of your butt. [img]
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Old April 5th, 2007, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehawk
Norm isn't it amazing how freely some of the youth will brag about their desires to violate policies, restrictions, even laws? That is why our country is in trouble now, too many people are too interested in the freedoms to violate said issues and that is why we were attacked so easily by terrorists and are open to it still. KIDs, and, YES, I said KIDS, wake up!!!
For some reason I totally missed this.
I'd like to point out, our country has the biggest problems with alcoholism, obesity, eating disorders, traffic accidents, and a plethora of other issues.
Maybe, just maybe, these ridiculous conservative, puritan values we have based our society on are doing more harm that good?
Heard of the binge drinking incidents happening to college freshmen, dying because they had no idea how to drink, or their limits?
I feel extremely lucky my parents taught me to drink early on, and what alcohol is and isn't. I've never thrown up from drinking, have extensive wine knowledge, and have never had the slightest urge to participate in the absurd drinking games of many of our country's youth, which are both dangerous and stupid. If I had a drink, I could always call my parents to come pick me up, and never enter a car with someone who has been drinking or drive drunk myself. On the other side, I alone know 5 kids who have died as a result of drunk driving, whether they were the drivers or passengers.
But, since alcohol is so "forbidden", kids will do it. Make it not such a big deal, and the problems will lessen. Unfortunately, many parents have yet to realize this.
Ok, off my stool...this topic is the one that pushed me to decide to go into politics spread the good word everywhere I can. Hey, I'm young, I still have faith in this country.
And back to the cruise.
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Old April 8th, 2007, 06:52 PM
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I am amazed that parents would "teach" their children to drink. IMHO that is just teaching them to break the law and have no respect for the legal system that is in place in this country. I am the mother of 5 children, only 2 of which are old enough to drink legally. I do know that they did not wait until their 21st birthdays to drink, however they know that behavior is not appreciated or condoned by their parents. My 20 yr old daughter and I will be cruising this summer and she will not be drinking due to the legal age limit and the rules of the ship we will be on. Parents need to teach their children that there are reasons for laws and they should be followed and respected. Children need their parents to parent, not be just another friend. (IMHO)
Kim
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Old April 8th, 2007, 08:39 PM
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Kim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I am amazed that parents would "teach" their children to drink. IMHO that is just teaching them to break the law and have no respect for the legal system that is in place in this country. I am the mother of 5 children, only 2 of which are old enough to drink legally. I do know that they did not wait until their 21st birthdays to drink, however they know that behavior is not appreciated or condoned by their parents. My 20 yr old daughter and I will be cruising this summer and she will not be drinking due to the legal age limit and the rules of the ship we will be on. Parents need to teach their children that there are reasons for laws and they should be followed and respected. Children need their parents to parent, not be just another friend. (IMHO)
Well said.

Very, very well said.

Norm.
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Old April 13th, 2007, 03:26 AM
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Kim, Norm, I just checked this followup and, OMG, I so totally agree with you two. How can a parent, much less both parents, be so disrespectful of their own children as to teach them, at an early age, that the rules do not apply to them! How inconsiderate and irresponsible of them. My second "ex" used to allow her kids to drink at the table at home until I found out about it and stopped it immediately. That alcohol mentality was one of the reasons her and I divorced! So, the underaged drinking struck at our family and married homelife. It shows up when that 'child" who is "almost" an adult steps up to violate said laws, rules, regulations and BRAGS about it!

Sabrinamaree, before you reply, understand that I was almost KILLED by a DRUNK driver last year. You stated that you have lost 5 FRIENDS because of alcohol related incidents.

SERIOUSLY!!! I joke around on this site about wanting to "drink" myself but after my accident, I don't and I WILL jump on the soap box everytime that I hear about anyone drinking and driving and that extends to underaged drinking!
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Cruised more times than I can remember.

Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Courage and perserverance have a magical talisman; before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish into the air.

Pick your company wisely! Hang around people who are going to help you become all God created you to be.
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Old April 15th, 2007, 08:34 PM
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wow.

i think everyone is taking each other's opinions to the extreme here... i wish everyone could be more respectful of one another in debate instead of acting like there is only one absolute right way of looking at things!

here's some of my OPINION...

i REALLY do not think the underage kid should drink on the boat... it is not a worthwhile risk since he could get kicked off. he gets to enjoy an awesome vacation which the vast vast majority of the human population of the world will never have the luxury to enjoy... he does not need to drink to have fun!

if he did drink though, it would not be the downfall of the free world! laws are made to serve specific purposes... the legal drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 because statistics showed that people between those ages were far more likely to get into car accidents... if the 18-21 year old is seen as more mature and responsible and is not in a situation where there is potential for them to do something stupid (like get in a car) then i don't think there is anything morally wrong with them having a drink... especially if they are under supervision.

as far as parenting/teenaged morality these days is concerned, whether you tell your kids that drinking is completely unacceptable or you try the "hands on" approach to teaching them to drink responsibly... neither way is better! both may have positive/negative consequences and it up to the parent to decide which they think is honestly best after considering those possible consequences. every family and every individual is different and there is no one way to raise kids that works for everyone. (i must add that despite everyone's differences all of you at least can agree that it's important for parents to be active decision makers even if you disagree with the decisions they are making. i am a high school teacher and you would be absolutely appalled by the number of parents who are completely uninvolved with what is going on in their children's lives!) if you take an adolescent psychology class they will tell you the best way to raise healthy teenagers is to be "authoritative"... that means you make sure that they know that you are monitoring their behavior, that you care about what they are doing and that you are ultimately the authority in the family... but that you give them as many opportunities as they can handle to make their own choices... people complain about "rebellious teens breaking the rules" but it is a phase they must go through in order to become responsible adults. they are testing the rules rather than just simply excepting them because some adult "said so"... if they don't go through this phase they will never learn to make decisions on their own (that is a bad thing, right?). (and in my experience if you explain the (good) reasoning for a rule they don't like they will 99.9% of the time respect that rule) Seriously now are we supposed to live in a world where we never question... and therefor sometimes break, "The Rules"? maybe we should just all move to north korea that is an obedient country, no? ok, not cool, now i am getting worked up like the rest of you!

so back to my original point... sometimes there is a good reason to break rules and sometimes it is foolish... i think drinking would be stupid but the kid will not turn into the antichrist if he takes a couple sips of his friend's margarita.
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Old April 15th, 2007, 09:41 PM
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Breaking rules is one thing, breaking laws is something entirely different. I do not condone parents who teach their children that it is acceptable to break laws that they don't agree with. Laws are put in place for our protection. As a parent I do realize that my children are not perfect and have done things I personally do not find acceptable. My children however realize that there are risks and consequences to their actions. As far as underage drinking goes, that is one I will never accept and my children realize this. That does not mean they haven't done it anyway. Like you said, children need to learn to make decisions for themselves. Luckily for me, my children who have chosen to drink at times also choose to either stay where they drink or have a driver who will not be drinking. I have learned the hard way about drinking and driving by losing my little brother at the age of 17 because a grown man chose to drink and drive. Living with that for the past 26 years is difficult at times, moreso now that all of my children have passed that age.
I also believe that if you are taking an underage person on a cruise who is not your child you should get that childs parents thoughts and feelings on letting them drink prior to leaving on the cruise. Just my opinion.
Kim
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Old April 16th, 2007, 02:09 AM
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ideally laws are put in place for our protection, but history has shown that not all laws actually function this way...

i have a few ideas but am unsure of what you mean by a difference between breaking rules and breaking laws... laws ARE a set of rules, no? what i personally see as a bigger difference is the concept of morality and the concept of law...

what if you found a law morally wrong? is it more moral to follow the law or follow your own beliefs? just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong, and just because something is legal, doesn't make it right either... we get our sense of morality (hopefully) from a variety of places...

hey, even within our own government laws conflict... medical marijuana is legal in california but still illegal federally... "laws" are not always that black and white and are constantly evolving... which law should a californian with glaucoma respect? they are going to have to weigh the consequences... but ultimately make their own decision on what they believe is right.

drinking underage is certainly not the same as refusing to sit in the back of a bus, and the law is pretty cut and dry... i actually agree that the 20 year old shouldn't drink... and i find drinking and driving especially despicable. i just think this concept of "we should follow the law because..." is a good philosophical question to contemplate... since this topic has already gone way past just answering the original question anyway...
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Old April 16th, 2007, 07:31 AM
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I think that if someone doesn't think a law is right then they should work to try to have that law changed. Breaking the law, no matter what that law is, is still wrong and I think that teaching your children that it is ok to break laws that you don't agree with is wrong also.
If you don't like something, try to change it, either that or learn to live with it.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by megs
i REALLY do not think the underage kid should drink on the boat... it is not a worthwhile risk since he could get kicked off. he gets to enjoy an awesome vacation which the vast vast majority of the human population of the world will never have the luxury to enjoy... he does not need to drink to have fun!

if he did drink though, it would not be the downfall of the free world! laws are made to serve specific purposes... the legal drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 because statistics showed that people between those ages were far more likely to get into car accidents... if the 18-21 year old is seen as more mature and responsible and is not in a situation where there is potential for them to do something stupid (like get in a car) then i don't think there is anything morally wrong with them having a drink... especially if they are under supervision.

as far as parenting/teenaged morality these days is concerned, whether you tell your kids that drinking is completely unacceptable or you try the "hands on" approach to teaching them to drink responsibly... neither way is better! both may have positive/negative consequences and it up to the parent to decide which they think is honestly best after considering those possible consequences. every family and every individual is different and there is no one way to raise kids that works for everyone. (i must add that despite everyone's differences all of you at least can agree that it's important for parents to be active decision makers even if you disagree with the decisions they are making. i am a high school teacher and you would be absolutely appalled by the number of parents who are completely uninvolved with what is going on in their children's lives!) if you take an adolescent psychology class they will tell you the best way to raise healthy teenagers is to be "authoritative"... that means you make sure that they know that you are monitoring their behavior, that you care about what they are doing and that you are ultimately the authority in the family... but that you give them as many opportunities as they can handle to make their own choices... people complain about "rebellious teens breaking the rules" but it is a phase they must go through in order to become responsible adults. they are testing the rules rather than just simply excepting them because some adult "said so"... if they don't go through this phase they will never learn to make decisions on their own (that is a bad thing, right?). (and in my experience if you explain the (good) reasoning for a rule they don't like they will 99.9% of the time respect that rule) Seriously now are we supposed to live in a world where we never question... and therefor sometimes break, "The Rules"? maybe we should just all move to north korea that is an obedient country, no? ok, not cool, now i am getting worked up like the rest of you!

so back to my original point... sometimes there is a good reason to break rules and sometimes it is foolish... i think drinking would be stupid but the kid will not turn into the antichrist if he takes a couple sips of his friend's margarita.
I agree with much of what you say. Indeed, the major cause of excessive drinking in college in North America is that children do not learn moderation. European societies in which children start drinking beer or wine at a very young age generally have much less incidence of drunkenness and alcoholism because those childern learn moderation and respect for alcohol at a young age.

That said, the law of the land is the law of the land, and it needs to be respected and obeyed. A society in which every citizen can choose which laws to obey and which laws to break soon decends into chaos. My godson first learned to like wine when he was six -- but during a family vacation in France, where it was legal for him to drink wine at that age. Parents who want to teach their children to drink responsibly should do so where it's legal, thus also teaching their children to obey the law.

Norm.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 10:03 AM
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Kim,

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Breaking rules is one thing, breaking laws is something entirely different. I do not condone parents who teach their children that it is acceptable to break laws that they don't agree with. Laws are put in place for our protection. As a parent I do realize that my children are not perfect and have done things I personally do not find acceptable. My children however realize that there are risks and consequences to their actions. As far as underage drinking goes, that is one I will never accept and my children realize this. That does not mean they haven't done it anyway. Like you said, children need to learn to make decisions for themselves. Luckily for me, my children who have chosen to drink at times also choose to either stay where they drink or have a driver who will not be drinking. I have learned the hard way about drinking and driving by losing my little brother at the age of 17 because a grown man chose to drink and drive. Living with that for the past 26 years is difficult at times, moreso now that all of my children have passed that age.
I also believe that if you are taking an underage person on a cruise who is not your child you should get that childs parents thoughts and feelings on letting them drink prior to leaving on the cruise. Just my opinion.
I have to agree with "megs" about there not being a difference between rules and laws. Indeed, laws are just the rules adopted by a government to bring order to society. A cruise line's "rules" exist to bring order aboar ship, and violation of those "rules" also can have consequences.

That said, I agree completely with the rest of your post.

Norm.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by megs
ideally laws are put in place for our protection, but history has shown that not all laws actually function this way...
Unfortunately, that's true. Nonetheless, it's usually better to follow a bad law while working to change it than to disregard it. By way of example, nothing will get an absurdly low speed limit raised to a reasonable limit more quickly than a band of people bottling up traffic by obeying the absurd speed limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
i have a few ideas but am unsure of what you mean by a difference between breaking rules and breaking laws... laws ARE a set of rules, no? what i personally see as a bigger difference is the concept of morality and the concept of law...

what if you found a law morally wrong? is it more moral to follow the law or follow your own beliefs? just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong, and just because something is legal, doesn't make it right either... we get our sense of morality (hopefully) from a variety of places...
A law that requires an immoral act, or that forbids an act that would be morally necessary, would be another matter. I don't see how you could argue that laws banning consumption of alcoholic beverages would be in this category, though, so I don't see how that issue is germain to the present discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
hey, even within our own government laws conflict... medical marijuana is legal in california but still illegal federally... "laws" are not always that black and white and are constantly evolving... which law should a californian with glaucoma respect? they are going to have to weigh the consequences... but ultimately make their own decision on what they believe is right.
Actually, there's no conflict whatsoever in the laws. Rather, California's "legalization" of "medical marijuana" was only a repeal of state laws that prohibited its use, coupled with provisions for controlled distribution. Since federal law still forbids posession or use of marijuana, its posession or use remains illegal everywhere throughout the United States -- including California.

That said, there's never a conflict between federal law and state law that is not resolved by the so-called "supremacy clause" of the federal constitution. The federal law always takes precedence in a case of conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
drinking underage is certainly not the same as refusing to sit in the back of a bus, and the law is pretty cut and dry... i actually agree that the 20 year old shouldn't drink... and i find drinking and driving especially despicable. i just think this concept of "we should follow the law because..." is a good philosophical question to contemplate... since this topic has already gone way past just answering the original question anyway...
Again, the issue is what happens when everybody starts deciding not to follow particular laws of their own choosing on the belief that a certain law is not important. If you get to choose, why don't I? Why doesn't the convicted thief who is sitting in prison?

Norm.
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