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Old February 8th, 2004, 09:05 PM
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Default *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Hi folks, I already posted this on chit-chat, but wondered whether any other G/L couples have encountered the same?

Harry



Hi everyone,

We just returned today from our wonderful 7-night Cruisemates cruise on the Carnival Pride. It was a wonderful week.

Sadly, though, my enthusiasm is tempered by our absolutely horrible experience at Immigration upon disembarking. . (None of our fellow Cruisemates from the cruise knows what occurred because it happened in the final moments as we left the Carnival terminal in Long Beach.) My stomach is still in knots hours later, and I just needed to share it with you to get some of the stress off my chest

As a lot of you know, Art and I are a male couple, going on 9 years together. We own a home together and are in escrow on a new house. Moreover, the Pride sailing was my 12th and Art’s 10th in the past 3 ½ years.

With those details in mind, this is what happened …

We disembarked from the Pride in an incredibly short amount of time, even though we were the last colored tag called. We shared our final minutes on board with our cruise host, Mike, and his lovely wife, Diana.

After leaving the ship, we made our way to the Immigration line, waiting patiently for about 20 minutes, saying goodbye in line to other Cruisemates folks we encountered.

Upon reaching the front of the Immigration line, we stepped forward, and I said, “Good morning” to the male Immigration Officer. I placed my Customs declaration, photo ID and birth certificate in front of me, and did the same with Art’s, telling the officer, “Here’s his and here’s mine.” To this, the Officer said, “It’s one family at a time.”

“Oh, but we are together,” I responded with a smile. Art then added, “Oh, the gentleman is just confused.” The Officer (his demeanor changing even more drastically) said to me, “The gentleman is NOT confused. Step back in line.”

I said, “But,” and the Officer repeated again to me, “Step back in line.”

I was so taken aback, all I could do was look around and wonder what I should do, until I realized I had to comply. I stepped back the 5 feet to the front of the line, my heart beating so hard and literally biting my tongue.

The Officer stamped Art’s documents within a minute or two. I then stepped forward to the Officer’s desk, forcing my mouth to remain closed. He looked over my documents and one minute later, stamp, stamp. He then said, “Thank you, and welcome to the United States” (and me, a U.S. citizen).
I was so hurt and furious I could barely speak, walking away Art (who is very slow to anger, and even slower to say anything) stepped next to me and said, “What an a$%hole.”

We made our way down the escalator, and I can tell you literally that 7 days of relaxation was wiped away in that instance. Gaining my composure, I wheeled my luggage over to a Carnival representative. I asked, “Pardon me, is there a way in which I can lodge a complaint against one of the Customs officers?” She smiled, and said, “Certainly” and told me to see a podium near the exit.

This was a Carnival guest relations area, and the person in charge said he had no way of lodging a complaint, but suggested I speak with the trio of Customs officials standing at the doorway.

I wheeled my luggage over, with Art accompanying me, and said to the Officers that I wished to lodge a complaint or wanted information as to how I could do so.

Now, this was the savings grace of the incident. Two of the Officers suggested we come with them to a private room in the terminal. I told them of the incident and explained our personal situation of being a gay couple. They asked whether I had the Officer’s name, and I responded I was so upset I could only describe him. From that, one said, “I think it’s so-and-so.” I offered more details as to where the Officer was stationed, and one of the two said he would go upstairs and verify who it was.

In the interim, I spoke with a wonderful, understanding younger agent. He handed me a booklet which is given to people who are searched. Interestingly enough, it notes that Customs/Immigration will not discriminate based upon sex, race, nationality, etc. Missing was, of course, familial status or sexual orientation.

The older Officer returned and confirmed it was the agent he suspected. They gave me his name and a postcard, indicating the address to write to complain. I shook both Officers’ hands, and thanked them for their efforts.

I DO intend to lodge a complaint with Immigration as to how we were treated. Never have we had such an incident when returning from a cruise! We are always allowed to check through together, but it seems that this Officer does not realize that all families do not fit the mold of two caucasion heterosexuals with a marriage license and the same last name.

Moreover, I can nearly guarantee you that an unmarried heterosexual couple would not be subjected to the separation in line that Art and I did.

Furthermore, California is a state that allows the registration of domestic partnerships. Do I need to pull out a notarized form to prove to the Officer that we are indeed a family?

Finally, I was sickened that our relationship of nearly a decade was negated in a few moments. My letter goes out tomorrow.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.

Harry Martin

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Old February 9th, 2004, 07:25 AM
dbna
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Sorry this happened to you.
But I think the officer said it all...

"welcome to the United States"
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Old February 9th, 2004, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

See my posts under Chit-Chat. Our heterosexual friends will be our most important allies on this issue so I thought it most appropriate to post there.

Brian


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Old February 9th, 2004, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

That's awful. Seems to me, that regardless of the Immigration Officer's personal beliefs, that he shouldn't be acting so rude and insensitive. Once we have gay marriage or civil unions here in Canada, I wonder how the US Immigration will handle gay/lesbian Canadian couples entering into the US?
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Old February 9th, 2004, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Under Chit-Chat, Michelle was kind enough to confirm that she and her husband *never* had this happen to them in the 4 cruises they took prior to being married. I thought that would be the case. Today, I am trying to focus more on all the good things, but the letter still goes out. That's why I posted the note yesterday to remind myself how awful that guy made us feel.

Harry

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Old February 9th, 2004, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

My partner and I have also been treated like this at imigration at MIA.. Very annoying isnt it! We didnt complain since were from the UK and we wern't sure if this was the norm.

Simon
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Old February 9th, 2004, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Sorry to hear about this incident Harry. However, I have to say I'm not surprised. Bill and I returned to the States after two weeks in England visiting family last October. The same thing happened to us in Philadelphia when we came home. It certainly wasn't an issue when we first arrived in London. I expected more from my homeland than that of my ancestry, but sadly, I was disappointed. (And pleased to find great acceptance in the U.K. including the working class cities my parents grew up in.) We have so much further to go.
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Old February 9th, 2004, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

People are dying from AIDS.

Mass graves are found daily in Iraq.

Put it in perspective, and get over it.
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Old February 9th, 2004, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Sorry this had to happen to you. I can't remember when Beurt and I ever tried to go through immigrations at the same time so I guess we never did. Although we live together, we have separate addresses due to our real estate holdings so never even thought about going through together.

I am eager to hear how the rest of your trip was and how much family was onboard. I am hoping to be on the PRIDE March 14. How was the cruise director and was an FOD party scheduled? We just got off the VISION on Sunday and the CD was great. Scheduled an FOD and even provided complimentary champagne and appetizers. Very few family members onboard so they were either on the PRIDE or home working.

Jerry

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Old February 9th, 2004, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Jerry, the Pride was great ... very few family on board (that I saw) and no FOD party, but who knows on another sailing?

The cruise director was a kick -- made fun of the stupid instructions in the muster drill, and made fun of the "announcement bell." I thought he was funny.

I love the Vision -- was on her last year in November.

And, finally, to BayouCity, I understand your points -- and this was minimal in comparison. However, this was one more chink in the armor that we as gay folks face and most people do not understand.

So whether it was important to you is not my concern ... this was our 12th cruise and I was aghast and wanted to let other folks know what we experienced.

Harry

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Old February 9th, 2004, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Hi Harry,

Sorry to hear your story. yep, we still have long way to go to get there. by the way, since you are the cruising expert, what is the age of the fellow passagers on Princess' cruise. want to try their new Caribbean Princess in Oct. when is the time to get the least number of elderly, families?

Also, thanks for the response on my "Hygiene on Cruise ship".

Rita L
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Old February 9th, 2004, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

, hi Rita (again).

Princess seems to run late 40s and 50s when we have been on, but lemme tell you, we met the most accepting people on Princess.

You will not have problems with too many kids in October ... just avoid the standard vacation times, and you will be fine.

We love the Personal Choice dining on Princess (and the indoor/glass-covered pool is wonderful)

Harry

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Old February 9th, 2004, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

HUmmmm. Well Harry, if you are registered in your home state of Ca. as a domsistic couple then you are indeed a 'family' and I would have so informed this "Agent" of this fact and if he failed to recognize it I would demand he called a supervisor. <G> Yeah, I know it would have been a hassle and probably would have gotten you a bunch of grief but darn it, discrimination is discrimination no matter how you look at it and his personal feelings should ne be an issue. Now as Michelle said, they never were hassled but they were a hetero couple..so? They were not technically a family at the time as there was no legal binding! G<>
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Old February 10th, 2004, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Harry, Sorry to read this happened to you. I have to agree with Jim Bragg, I would have called for a supervisor, especially that you and Art are indeed family. Sometimes even though we don't want to make a fuss, it is indeed needed. I hope you get a good responce from your letter, keep us posted.

Jeanne
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Old February 10th, 2004, 09:13 PM
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hey guys and gals...this isn't the cruise line. this is a US CUSTOMS issue. so write, call, scream or whatever to the powers that be...and it WILL change the attitudes of these Know-nothings in unfortunate disguises of uniforms with (NO) authority if they keep this crap up/ harry and art, sorry to hear of your trouble, but let's see what can come of it if we all step up to bat! i know we will from florida!...mike and jon
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Old February 10th, 2004, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Thanks Mike ... that's why I drummed up all my composure before we left the terminal to find out all the details on lodging a complaint -- and (I am surprised) Art was supporting ... that's how pissed he was too.

Hopefully the letter will go out tomorrow with work conditions.

Harry

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Old February 11th, 2004, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Harry.Looking from the outside in?
This is what i would expect from people that support your current administration.
Harry and Art.This is what you dont need when you disembark from a great holiday.
Sorry to hear this..
Antony Sydney Australia
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Old February 11th, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

I disagree with a number of posts here folks. First it is officials under the new Homeland Security Forces and what used to be INS and US Customs. They do in fact have quite a bit of authority and if you don't believe it try them. If you break the law they can and will arrest you. That said, Harry and Art broke no law and the offending Agent should have been called on the carpet for it and I am sure he will when they get the letter Harry sent. As for the person from Australia, you apparently have no idea how our government system works. This is what one individual has done and nothing to do with the 'current administrations' or those that support them. What was done to Harry and Art was wrong and I am a big supporter of our current admin as are many of my friends, many of whom happen to be gay. Leave the politics out of it as it has nothing to do with this situation.
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Old February 11th, 2004, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Bless the Bush administration and all they are doing for us as gay people. Jim supports them, so no commenting on them!
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Old February 11th, 2004, 06:57 PM
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ok i was going to be silent, but can no longer! no, it's not the administration, as jim b. so aptly relates...it's an individual (can i say s.o.b.?) customs officer that needs the wrath of us to set him "straight" i guess..by letting his superiors know he's not exactly the best little "tin badge" on the block...no offense i hope but couldn't resist. as a senior white house officer under the ford administration, i have gone thru many incidents like this and have responded...and i do believe to the satisfaction of any/all complaintants about someone in the govt. yes, this type of issue DOES get to the top, friends, and i dealt with a great deal of them. moral here, if any...just do your thing, be respectful, and stand up for ALL OF OUR RIGHTS. enuf said. sorry for going on too long. mike
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Old February 11th, 2004, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Ummm, politely disagreeing here, but it is under Bush that we now have the Homeland Security, which I frankly think is a joke.

On our Monarch of the Seas cruise, we waited 40 minutes in an Immigration line (this after a 4-night terrorist-oriented cruise to Ensenada). The Immigration officer knew we had been waiting so long and asked, "But don't you feel safer?"

Art and I both responded in unison, "No."

Terrorists can buy cruise tickets, too, and can also enter this country legally.

Bush (from Texas) has now said he supports altering our U.S. Constitution (per Newsweek this week) to ban gay marriage. Further, his home state *finally* had its anti-sodomy laws overturned when most states abandoned these laws years prior.

Do I think the officer's actions related to this ... I don't know. But I think the Administration has done *nothing* to make things better for gay people.

Harry

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Old February 14th, 2004, 12:33 AM
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Harry, that is terrible....always that 10 percent. I am so sorry that happened to you and Art . Please don't let one bigoted idiot ruin your day. At least Deb and I had a great cruise. We hope someday to meet you and Art on a cruise. Take care my friend and let the bad stuff slide off ya..be the Teflon man!

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Old February 14th, 2004, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Thanks Rick ... hope your cruise went great. The letter is being written this weekend -- finally got a breather from work.

Harry

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Old February 15th, 2004, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Harry,

I know this is/was a horrible experience and in a perfect world this would never happen, however, we both know this world is far from perfect. If it's any consolation, just remember that this guy (officer) has to live with himself here on this earth and he will have to answer for his actions (as will we all ) a little later on down the road. I would have been just as mad as you, but find the good in it. If ever you are tempted to be somewhat less than kind to someone, and I'm not saying you would, remember this incident.

Now back to the real world, the officer definitley had the upper hand at that moment. No if's and's or but's about it, you did the right thing. They (customs and immigrations officers) unfortunately can make your life very "inconvenient" if you decide to make that turf at his or her podium your battle ground. If I may use my favorite phrase, "That's not the hill you want to die on". You choose your battle ground, and in this case a strongly worded, informative letter to his superiors is the way to go. Don't hold your breath, but you should get a response. The officer was clearly using his authority for nothing else than to make you feel bad. He is an idiot who is now on your turf. Happy writing! TonyV
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Old February 15th, 2004, 09:14 AM
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Harry: It is not that many years ago that I recall experieincing a similar response from Canada Customs officers. Fortunately, the requirements have been changed and persons residing at the same address can complete one declaration form ( their choice), which means you would step forward together, regardless of how you are related.

You mentioned that you are registered domestic partners in California. Does this have any bearing under your Federal law? I know that here, Customs officers are agents of the Federal Government and would likely ignore Provincial regulations in the same manner as they would foreign legislation unless there is an existing agreement between the respective governments.

I mention this last point partly in reponse to a fellow Canadian's question about U.S. recognition of Same-sex marriages/unions. In my opinion, U.S. Customs will respond in the same manner as Officers from Canada, they will work within the framework of their jurisdiction and existing legislation. Currently, Canada Customs does not recognize same-sex unions for the purposes mentioned in the original post, anymore than U.S. Customs. They do however. recognize individuals that co-habitate. There is an old addage about eggs and chickens that comes to mind, something about not being too confident until all the facts are in!

Having run on as I have, I wish you the best Harry, in your effort to be treated fairly and with courtesy, as well as whatever change you might initiate!

CaseyT
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Old February 15th, 2004, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

Casey and Tony, thank you for the informative posts. I spoke with our neighbor (who is an immigration officer), and he gave me tips on getting a response. (Bottom line is don't let it drop till you get one, and say you will notify Washington (aka Ashcroft) too.

He also said that Standard Operating Procedure for officers is to be polite at all times, so he said he outright violated that rule.

Harry

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Old February 18th, 2004, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: *Horrible* ending to our Pride cruise

My man of 15 years and I have been on 24 cruises together and never go up to imigration together because legally we are not in the same family and don't have the same last name.
With all the security issues going on now all rules should be followed and don't rock the boat so to speak.
So Harry(by the way we were on the Spirt with you in Oct.2002) stop carrying on about it and move on!
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Old February 18th, 2004, 12:29 PM
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I think that the differance is that Harry and Art are legally a family. With all this garbage about same sex marrage going on many people are getting quite close-minded mostly because of words. A civil union carries as much weight legally as marrage. The only differance that see is the wroding and who performs the ceremony. Civil Unions are a legal contract issued by the government, a marrage is done by a ordained minister in a church with the blessing of the church and by common law also has legal status. As religions are basically saying that same sex people cannot be a couple then I don;t understand why a same sex couple would want their blessing, which they basically are not going to get from the mainstream religions. A Civil Union is clear and binding and legal and also shows commitment and that would work for me and should not be questioned by anyone, official or otherwise. Most of the gay couples I know are every bit as devoted and committed to each other as and hetero couple, some moreso.
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Old February 18th, 2004, 02:01 PM
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Honestly people - get over it and put it in its proper perspective.
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Old February 18th, 2004, 02:16 PM
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Jim:

A civil union or domestic partnership is NOT the same as marriage. It is like a DIFFERENT drinking fountain, a DIFFERENT rest room, or a DIFFERENT school. They may be EQUAL but they are different and therefore, DISCRIMINATORY. They infer that gays and lesbians can use the pool as long as it's not the same one the heteros swim in. Germs and all, you know.

Churches need not recognize same-sex marriages just like the Catholic Church doesn't recognize the subsequent marriages of divorced Catholics who didn't get their first marriage annulled. Would divorced Catholics want subsequent relationships formalized with civil unions instead of full-fledged marriages? I think not.

It is too easy for the feds NOT to recognize civil unions and domestic partnerships in the same way they recognize marriages because they are NOT marriages. Civil unions are for second class citizens.

My partner and I were married in Windsor, Ontario this summer. I wouldn't have bothered with a civil union or domestic partnership. I find both of them insulting. Like getting thrown a bone after the others have picked it clean.

Brian


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