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  #31 (permalink)  
Old January 12th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Zoom & Sparky
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica


Offensive Terminology to Avoid per Gay Lesbian Aliance Against Defamation

OFFENSIVE: "sexual preference"
PREFERRED: "sexual orientation"
The phrase "sexual preference" is generally used to suggest that being lesbian or gay is a choice and therefore "curable." The term "sexual orientation" is the accurate description of an individual's enduring physical, romantic, emotional and/or spiritual attraction to members of the same and/or opposite sex and is inclusive of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and heterosexual men and women.

http://www.glaad.org/media/guide/offensive.php
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old January 12th, 2005, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Okay, sexual orientation then. (Actually I use that term often.) While I may not always please everyone with how I phrase things, one should look at my heart and actions. I make no judgements nor any decision or feelings toward anyone because of the sexual orientation they are born with. It just isn't important to me. I make friends with people because of who there are, and not what they look like, where they are from, who they worship, or how they feel sexually. Nobody should be discriminated against for those reasons, nor should they expect special treatment.
Jim

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old January 12th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Mike63
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Jim is right - nobody should be discriminated against. Isn't this what the posting's about - to highlight the condoned discrimination of gays in Jamaica and take some action to voice our disapproval?

I'm not sure why Jim wrote "...nor should they expect special treatment." I for one, don't expect nor want special treatment. Just want to be treated like everyone else...even in so far as joining the military. Oops, I forgot, I can't do that without hiding - I guess we're not all treated the same!
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old January 13th, 2005, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Hi Mark and Michael,

I totally agree with your opinion about St. Barth's. Unfortunately, that island is not really a caribbean destination, although it happens to be situated in the region. On the contrary: St. Barth's is a part of France, with mainly European French residents and with as much a Cote d'Azur atmosphere as St. Tropez....and as such the island is blessed with the fortunes of European civilization....

Most of the other caribbean islands are inhabited with mainly African descendants who happen to be a very long way from getting accustomed to what we would call 'Western civilization'; it took Europe thousands of years to get where it is today. You can't expect people that were taken from the jungle only a couple of hundreds of years ago to embraze 'our' culture of tolerance...it just does not work that way. As we say in the caribbean: 'you can take the people from the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the people....'

Although I very much sympathize with the idea of boycoting gay unfriendly destinations like Jamaica, I don't think it will change its people's attitudes within our life time.

J.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old January 14th, 2005, 08:40 AM
Ron and Jon
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica


Apart from the very racist tone of your posting, discrimination is discrimination whether gay, black or ET. And as to your comment:

quote:

Although I very much sympathize with the idea of boycoting gay unfriendly destinations like Jamaica, I don't think it will change its people's attitudes within our life time.

unquote

All one can say to that is, tell that to Nelson Mandela.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old January 15th, 2005, 12:34 PM
a Sint Maarten resident
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Default Re: Re: Say NO to Jamaica

I am sorry if I offended you or any one else with my candid comments - that has never been my intention.

It is just my experience, after having lived on the islands for several years, that the difference between European and African culture is huge. I am not a racist, nor do I discriminate against any group because of skin color, sexual orientation or otherwise. However, I think my experience as a white European among mostly black people in the caribbean made me more realistic in terms of cultural differences - they are simply there and you can't just change them starting a boycot.

I am and always have been a strong supporter of the movement against apartheid in South Africa and Nelson Mandela's enormous achievements. Taken into account that country's history, I find it simply amazing that that society shows so much tolerance for people with other convictions, including the gay community.

Having said that, I do believe that we should try to change the general opinion in Jamaica regarding gays, but I don't know what the best way would be to deal with it.

J.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old January 15th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

***Personal attack deleted as a violation of the TOS***
How is it offensive? Let me count the ways:
1. Any cultural theorist will tell you that his experience as a white man living in the islands is just that......his experience. There's nothing more boring that someone who articulates that it is "their" experience when what they're really saying is that it is the "only" valid experience.....and if you disagree, then clearly you're wrong.
2. This insistance that his perceptions and opinions represent the totality of the 'gay truth".........that orientation or any of a million singlularly limiting terms can accurately express the full spectrum of the sexual experience.
3. There's no such thing as a gay dollar........hold on honey cause mine are radically queer bucks........and I'll spend them and call them what I like.
4. He proports tolorance but what it really is just narrow-minded bigotry but in a slighly pink shade.
5. He's just plain offensive.

My proposal.........dont waste time threatening the Jamaican government........go to the cruiselines. If there were going to an island that was so clearly racist.........the WORLD would complain. Tell them that we will spread the word to boycott any cruiseline that continues to patronize Jamaica.
Yours in peace and harmony. Paul
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old January 15th, 2005, 11:00 PM
a Sint Maarten resident
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

If that reply is addressed to me: I am not at all pretending to be the community watchdog on these issues at all. It seems that Paul missed the point entirely: my experience is just my experience; I have never pretended that my experience is the only valid one. Having said that, I do resent my comment to be marked as "internalized homophobia and rightously dogmatic tirades". I am not only a white European living in the islands, but also a gay man and active in the local community trying to get people's attitudes here to be tolerant about 'alternative' lifestyles. I call upon other gays, whether black or white, to tell about there experience in the islands - I am sure they will be comparable to mine. As far as the gay dolar is concerned, I have never said that there is not such thing (read my messages again).

By all means, start a boycot against Jamaica, based on there anti-gay attitudes - I never took a stand against a boycot - I just don't think it can change peoples attitudes, but I do understand that if you haven't lived here, you can not really know what you're talking about. I guess Paul is an American citizen without much foreign cultural experience...?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2005, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Some people prefer to attack others and make snap judgements. These usually prove to be in error and often embarassing, or at least they should be. As to what to do, I agree a boycott is not the answer. Education and familiarization is. People tend to fear and demonize what they don't know or understand which is why we have so much bigotry, be it because of race, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. One of the reasons why I enjoy cruising so much is that many people actually open up and speak 'across lines' whatever they are because they feel less pressure to conform to what they and their friends were brought up to believe. That opens their minds and they find out that these people that are 'differant' really aren't so differant after all and there is nothing to fear nor anything to dislike. Education and interaction is what rids people of their predujices, not seperation such as boycotting.
Jim

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old January 16th, 2005, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica


We can take our lead from the lyrics of "Cabaret": "Money makes the world go
around...". Human being don't naturally hate Gays; such hatred has to be taught. Gays
are used as scapegoats for the ills of a country and it's people, no differently than the
Jews were the scapegoats for the Nazis. Undoubtedly homophobia to a point of freely
murdering gays in Jamaica must be sanctioned either within their political system or
their religions and most probably both. It must serve their purposes.

But, to my point of money. When a country, corporation or business man starts to feel
the effects of a financial boycott brought on by their practices, they inevitably will mend
their ways if they are to continue to prosper. I don't mean just by Gay consumers, I
mean all consumers. That is how we did it with South Africa in helping end Apartheid,
how the Black Americans put an end to transport segregation and to a lesser scale our
Coors Brewery victory. We stopped buying their products and services and stopped
visiting their country. When it is no longer in the financial interests of the controlling
factions of Jamaica to use Gays as their scapegoat, they will end this homicidal
homophobia as easily and as quickly as their started it.. All we have to do is stop buying their products, only one of which is the port facilities used by our cruise liners.
With the co-operation of family and friends, we all just stop going.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old January 17th, 2005, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

I don't mean to butt into your converstation . . .

I'm a straight female. My DH is also straight. His best friend of 20 years is a gay male and I have a few gay friends. Gay people can be some of the most non-judgemental (sp?) people around. I've found that they're usually more fun too. I personally don't understand why some straight people or cultures can be so mean. Maybe it's because they are unsure of their own sexuality? Maybe it's becuase the gay community is still new to those straights who don't get out much?

Why am I (a straight female) even on this board? I like gay people. My gay friends are a blast to be with and I was hoping to find a gay couple to hang with on my next cruise.

That being said, I think the gay community is still new to most cultures. I think it's important that they continue to introduce themselves to these cultures. Don't boycott Jamaica. Go there with your heald held high and let them know that they won't scare you off (for lack of better wording).
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old January 18th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

I'm still with Ron and Jon on this. Money means EVERYTHING is power decisions, Marx told us that about a thousand years ago ( and by the way, the Mandela point was perfect). Certainly people must be familar with the Burmingham bus boycott in the 60s? It's more than a little irritating to hear people talk about how they've reached out and educated when it probably is more likely that they docked, bought some bad nick-nacks and blew out of town..........with very little "educating" going on. Read the article and then come back to the board..........THE POLICE ARE BEATING GAYS TO DEATH.........what part of that is complicated?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old January 27th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

For those interested............Amnesty International just called the slaughter of gays in Jamaice "an international emergency" and urges EVERYONE to respond. Information is located on their website. This means it's beyond simple namecalling and harrassment..........it means people are dying.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old January 29th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

It was also pointed out by more than a few people that the ones who are opposed to any idea of a boycott are the same people that have a financially vested interest in cruise ships continuing to go to Jamaica.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old January 30th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Mark and Michael
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Paul:
I applaud your candor. I agree with you that anyone that has any reservation about boycotting any oppressive country, island, business, etc. has some kind of personal stake in the potential outcome. I appreciate your, and others postings, and I'm glad to see this board be the forum that it has beocme. It is obvious that there are others here that do not agree with me, but fortunately, at least for the moment, they seem to be the minority. I would hope that everyone who, by the grace of chance, is not a minority member, live the life of a minority member for just enough time so that they may experience the "fun".
Thanks- Mark
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2005, 07:16 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

As well meaning as "go in their with your head held high"........the first thing that comes to mind is that it's not up to some self-described straight person to tell me or any other gays how to handle political situations where our lives are at stake. The problem with that comment is that "going in their with my head held high' could cost me or others our lives. I repeat...........they're beating us to dealth, not name calling or making faces or laughing as we walk by. They're beating our heads in with clubs. It would be much more effective to get off this board and for her to write a letter to the cruise company.
The issue continues to gain momentum in the gay press here in NYC and other major metropolitan cites..........the general consensus is to boycott and make it clear and unambiguious to the cruise lines that no gay business will come to any line that patronizes Jamaica.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old February 2nd, 2005, 07:54 PM
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Ok, now i'm frightened. I just booked the Western Caribbean on Princess, which stops in Ocho Rios. I am travelling alone and will not be taking the ship's excursions. I plan to hire a cab to drive me around the island for half a day. Although I don't wear my sexuality on my sleeve, and I don't want to be singled out and bashed. As I will be alone, this is a real concern of mine.

Should I stay on board ship, or am I over-reacting?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd, 2005, 08:07 AM
Ron and Jon
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica


To Snuick's guy

The chances of you personally being bashed are very small but not impossible. The whole idea regarding a boycott of this island is because the Jamaican government and religious arms thereof are sanctioning the killing Gay Jamaicans. It is not a case of your security but of their security. Surely you can see this. They are killing our brothers and sisters. Is that not reason enough to avoid going there? In your case, I would remain onboard and deprive them of your tourist dollars. When the tourist industry, as in your example of cab drivers, understand they are loosing business because of their government's indifference if not direct involvement in killing gays, they will be seeking an end to this homophobic violence because their prosperity will depend on it ceasing. Of the 600 billion dollars, yes, 600 billion dollars to be spent this year by the American GLBT community, Jamaica should not receive one cent until they put an end to this murderous homophobia.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old February 6th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Dear Snicks Guy,
I'm with Ron and Jon on this. I would also take it a step further and tell Princess Cruiselines that you will no longer be booking any cruises that go to Jamaica and that you plan on telling your friends who will tell their friends ( and honey, we got alot of sisters).
Lastly, remember..........THEY"RE KILLING OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS. Not name calling, not social intolorance but beating their heads in with baseball bats. What that should mean for all of us personally is NOTHING is too much to do to help. I would propose a guideing principle.........if you were in their place, what would you want others to do for you?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old February 9th, 2005, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Well I'm glad this post was made. While I'm straight, I will also cross Jamaica off my list. I refuse to spend any of my hard earned dollars in a country that allows this type of behavior. Maybe if the government feels the pinch of less tourist dollars being spent, no matter whose dollars they are, they'll do something about it. Thank you to the original poster for bringing to to everyone's attention.

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old February 11th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

The latest incident monitored by Amensty International involved several men surrounding a 26 yr old male.........pouring gasoline on him..........setting him on fire........and watching as he ran down the street before burning to death. Anyone interested in details........just log onto the website. Wow, sounds like the kind of place that responds to "education". Still think simple "shopping with the locals" will affect that kind of deep rooted changes needed? Sorry, but it aint.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old April 6th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Paul Rodgers
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

For anyone following the issue of gays in the Caribbean..........St Kitts officially turned away a gay cruise. So it seems as if the idea of "educating" the islands has fallen on it's ass. The islanders dont want to meet you and are not interested in you stretching their boundaries. Seems like economic empowerment and incentives are more likely to be productive., they have always been successful in the past. So if anyone still thinks that "just meeting with the folks and letting them know us" is a valid political option,........think again cause HONEY THEY HATE YOU AND DONT WANT YOU ON THEIR ISLAND. Go with the bucks..........it has always worked in the past.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2005, 03:35 PM
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Default Today's News

From 365gay.com today:

(Kingston, Jamaica) One of Jamaica's leading advocates for people with HIV/AIDS has been killed by two men shouting anti-gay epithets.

Lenford "Steve" Harvey who ran Jamaica AIDS Support for Life was shot to death on the eve of World AIDS Day. Support for Life provides support to gay men and sex workers.

News of his murder was released by Christian Aid, a London-based group that helped fund Support of Life.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old December 1st, 2005, 07:41 PM
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When Jon and I first posted our call for a boycott of Jamaica due to the homophobia exhibited there, reaching the full gamut of open murder of gays, we did not do so for any reason than to deprive Jamaica financially for it's light hearted acceptance of the extermination of our sisters and brothers in that country. We did not think this could evolve into a point of contention.

The following has been reported today in the press which should force all of us to think about supporting any travel to Jamaica.

*********

(Kingston, Jamaica) One of Jamaica's leading advocates for people with HIV/AIDS has been killed by two men shouting anti-gay epithets.

Lenford "Steve" Harvey who ran Jamaica AIDS Support for Life was shot to death on the eve of World AIDS Day. Support for Life provides support to gay men and sex workers.

News of his murder was released by Christian Aid, a London-based group that helped fund Support of Life.

Harvey was openly gay and well known in Jamaica.

*********


If this is not a wake up call for the suggested boycott of Jamaica then what on earth will be?
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old April 3rd, 2007, 10:49 AM
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Default Boycott Jamaica

Here is another incident that took place on Sunday April 1, 2007. Being Jamaican I totally agree with anyone to boycott the Island. Please see below.


http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/...GAY_ATTACK.asp
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old May 1st, 2007, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Perhaps you should take a look at this article..no country in the caribbean is THIS worse....

http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2007...oycotti_1#more


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe and Ivan
Hi Ron and Jon,

At the other end of the political spectrum, is there any Caribbean island or port that is truly gay-affirming? I know most tourist spots are friendly and comfortable when you're a tourist spending money, but I don't know of any that provide the legal standing that one might find in Canada and some European countries.

A few years back, a gay cruise to the Grand Cayman received the official UNWELCOME mat for gays. That seems to have quieted down.

For many travel spots, there is a double standard for tourists versus locals. The rules and expectations tend to be more straight-laced for the locals.

Ivan
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Old May 1st, 2007, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Say NO to Jamaica

Jim,
It is not that simple. My ex is from Jamaica and I dont know what it is with the Jamaican pysch..its defintely different from any other nationality. Basically most are virulently homophobic......AND this not just the working or uneducated people...a jamaican physician neighbor of mine said he would shoot gays if he could...(then he found out I am gay). Yet he would take care of patients and was well regarded in medical circles...so go figure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bragg
I am one that will tell you of the great times we have had whenever we go to Jamaica. No I am not gay but I don't really think that matters all that much as far as cruise tourist goes. What does matter is how you look at, react, and treat the locals and what understanding you have and are willing to give to their culture and customs. We have been treated wonderfully by almost all the locals whenever we are there because we accept them for the way they are and do not judge them. Hey, wait a minute, isn't that what we tell people who have problems with those folks who happen to be gay? Prejudice and discrimination work both ways. Treat the locals with respect and kindness and acceptance and they will treat you wonderfully in return.
Jim
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old May 9th, 2007, 07:16 PM
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Wow, I'm blown away after reading this thread and looking at the links. Now I know why "Sandals" (resorts in Jamaica) always cater to "married" individuals. I had no idea this brutal activity was going on.

I am sure that my partner and I would be stoned or beaten if we went there. How can you control your urges or "orientation" of love for another?

We'll join the many others and stay away from the un-evolved. Really sad.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 08:38 PM
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Hello,
The thing to rememeber is MOST of the world is not accepting of gays and lesbians. You get isolated persons and familes that 'maybe' do, but that is the exception. Jamaica is the EXTREME to say the least. So is Zimbabwe, most of the Islamic World and some other African countries.

The emphasis in these and other countries is traditional attitudes...which include cheating on ones wife(s), wife beating, polygamy...(get the picture)...its usually the women who is at the loosing end.

There are enough places in the world that are gay friendly so go there....

Regards
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Old May 9th, 2007, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talk2me726
Hello,
The thing to rememeber is MOST of the world is not accepting of gays and lesbians. You get isolated persons and familes that 'maybe' do, but that is the exception. Jamaica is the EXTREME to say the least. So is Zimbabwe, most of the Islamic World and some other African countries.

The emphasis in these and other countries is traditional attitudes...which include cheating on ones wife(s), wife beating, polygamy...(get the picture)...its usually the women who is at the loosing end.

There are enough places in the world that are gay friendly so go there....

Regards
Most definitely. My sons's mother and I got married in Montego Bay, Jamaica 20 years ago and I have good memories of my time there-the people, adventures, beauty, etc. So for ME, coming out 10 years ago, a Californian who believes strongly in who I am and is proud of my orientation...it's just sad to know what goes on there. I really never knew. My partner and I have traveled extensively and have not had any issues at all with our orientation and love for each other. We are very confident, yet respectful of our public behavior but also our self-respect (being true to ourself) so we have never had an issue. Jamaica was one spot I was hoping to visit again...but for now, will not.

Cheers-
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