Well Carnival and HAL are going to follow the industry trend and build the next series of HAL ships on a Carnival Spirit hull.
I think the current problems Celebrity is having with the Millennium's thallasotherapy pool and dining room is warning that building a ship on a common platform can change the cruise experience for passengers and crew. Spirit is designed for a different style and type of cruise than HAL and I really think several problems will surface with this ship after a few months of being in passenger service.
I'm not crazy about the 84,000 ton size, I'm not sure about casual alternatives to dining which really isn't that much a part of the HAL experience. Supposibly it will retain the HAL aft deck pool, HAL's aft two tier dining room, the fully wraparound promenade deck. Some other features sound like the Millennium - the glass elevators that give ocean views (probably because that's where RCI locates their atrium - Celebrity has small 3 or 4 deck foyer), a cigar club, an extensive spa. Supposibly familiar and well-loved areas like the Explorer's Lounge, Ocean Bar, Crow's Nest will be similar to those on the Statendam/Rotterdam type of ships. Hopefully the deck areas will continue to be floored in teak.
The problem I have is that already HAL is going to get 5 of these ships without the first ship delivered, tested and proven for design flaws that would have to be addressed and design elements modified. Celebrity is now stuck with making some modifications to one area of the Millennium because it works for the Radiance of the Seas well but not for the Millennium and have had an embarrassing PR experience because they instituted a charge to attempt to prevent overcrowding and noise from kids in the area which was designed to be quiet, but placed in the wrong area for quiet use (as opposed to where it was placed in the Celebrity designed previous series of ships). Some areas of this new HAL ship are likely to not work well for HAL, because, essentially, they were designed for a Carnival type experience. For Costa, it may not matter as much, but there are some Costa fans who already will not sail the Atlantica, as it is too obviously a Carnival type of environment and layout.
There's plenty of previous series HAL ships to choose from, thankfully, if my fears become reality for the new series.
I agree that I'm not excited about these new ships but for different reasons. First, I do like that they will have internet access available in each cabin. Also, I am happy that these ships will follow the Rotterdam with an all suite deck & Neptune Lounge. I dislike the larger passenger capacity. While it is less than the mega ships, 14,000 was my limit. Until I actually see deck plans I can't be sure. But, the discription I've read has the first stages of glitter written all over it. What's the benefit in having an ocean view from an elevator when on a ship?
That's a Carnival credo, but shouldnt be a HAL one!!! I expect the Noordam to go soon and then they"ll start in on the older of the Statendam class. Isn't this new homogenized cruising just great!
I also admit some reservations about this new class of HAL ships, from what I've heard/read so far. One reason HAL is my first choice, all things being equal (I also sail Celebrity and Princess), is the size of the ships. I've been on the former Niew Amsterdam and Westerdam, and Ryndam in the Statendam class, and loved all of them. Sorry to see Westerdam is going; though she was a older ship I really enjoyed the overall experience sailing on her. I hope HAL keeps up with the Statendam class, and I'd like to sail Amsterdam or Rotterdam (considering them for my next cruise), and will be interested to see how this new class works out. Do NOT want to see HAL become a Carnival wannabe!
I'm trying to not form preconceived negative notions about the new ships but I do agree 83,000 ton is larger than I like.
It is far more economical to build 'em bigger and put more passengers aboard. The smaller ships are just too costly to operate with fewer pax dividing up the cost so I'm hoping the philosophy is to make the ships somewhat larger in order to continue to provide the service and quality we all look to HAL to provide.
If the choice is a decrease in services and quality due to the expense involved, I'd rather go somewhat larger....but it is not my plan to ever step aboard a 100,000 ton ship.....and at the first sign of "Farkas" design and decor, I'm gone!
Farcus designed the Crow's Nest in the Statendam, the Showroom lounge in the Veendam, he's done a few rooms on HAL ships.
I think he must have had something to do with the showroom lounge on the Amsterdam, to me, this is a hideous room.
Farcus designed most if not all of the Atlantica, a ship I find glitzy and unattractive within. I don't think he's the principal designer on the HAL Vista class ships, much of HAL's clientele will stay away if he is.
Farcus did originally do the main show lounge and the Crow's nest but HAL had so many complaints about it they were both done over. I don't think he will be allowed to touch another HAL ship.
Perhaps I am not as fiscally sophisticated as others but I don't understand how bigger begets better service. Or at least protects the quality of service. There are plenty (well a few) of high end lines sailing with less passengers than HAL now & they seem to be making out just fine. I do see 5 day flash sale for HAL with some sailing at $899 per person etc. But for the most part, HAL hasn't lowered its prices like others. I have yet to see "7 day X cruise from $499" splattered all over the Sunday paper. (I know the lowest insides for the Westerdam are advertising that for some 5 day sailings)
It was my understanding/belief that HAL repeat customers sailed for something particular, service and attention to quality. I have yet to see massive posts raving about how HAL is better because its a less expensive line than others. Or because the ships have so many people on board. So, if the base of their passengers aren't choosing HAL because it simply costs less, let's not destroy the reason we are sailing with them. I don't care how well trained the staff are, the more passengers on board, the more service will degrade. The additional 500 or so guests may not signal the end for HAL, but it changes things for me. The yatch like luxury ships with 200-700 guests are fine if I want to get away and don't mind being completely by myself. I love HAL because there are more passengers on board to interact with, but not enough to feel like I'm cattle being hurded.
I'm really a big ship kind of guy. I enjoy the alternatives the extra space allows. For BIG, this size seems a nice compromise to the 140,000 ton giga ships.
I'm sure the telling factor in the Vista class will be the per passenger space ratio. Just depends how many cabins they squeeze into their 84,000 tons.
Personally I loved the size of the Millennium, and while it had some problems the first while, the major issues were dealt with, and mostly minor annoyances remain.
I'd sail her again in a heartbeat.
If they have the will, I see no reason the HAL designers can't give the new class the comfortable HAL ambiance.
I'm among the many HAL repeaters who do not want a Millenium experience. Without sounding flip or disrespectful...but if we wanted Millenium, we'd sail Millenium and not one of the "dams". Speaking just for myself, Millenium is not for me. I saw her in port and said "no way". Not to mention that IMO, HAL sells far more for the money than Celebrity (RCI).
I do not have a Phd in business, but in response to "2B@sea",the luxury cruiselines are maintaining a very fine product on smaller ships, but look at the price per person per day.
Certainly I could be wrong, but I think that HAL, in order to maintain the level we enjoy from them, has to make a choice. Somewhat larger ships with the amount of space per passenger we are acustomed to and maintain the higher middle price range ; or raise the prices in order to maintain their product; or lower the prices and lower the level.
It appears they have chosen to keep providing the product all their loyal alums demand and are building larger ships that will carry more paying pax. It seems to me that they can earn their bottom line without sacrificing the product by expanding the fleet with these larger ships. Cheaper to operate per person.
If they are staffed adequately, dining venues added, and our familiar lounges etc are kept to reasonable sizes, with more lounges added to the ones we now enjoy, (instead of hugely enlarging Ocean Bar etc.) I think HAL can maintain the "ambiance" of the Statendam class size on the Vista ships. Many of us weren't happy when we heard the size of Rotterdam VI announced.....and IMO, she's PERFECT. Both Volendam and Zaandam work fine...and they're aditional tonnage over Statendam and sisters.
I sincerely hope that 84,000 is where they stop.....please, that's about my limit as to size on which I wish to cruise.
the difference between the Statendam to Rotterdam class is really small. They are really a slightly expanded version of the Statendam. My point, really, more than the size is getting away from the Statendam hull. The PSR will actually improve on the Vista ships. Instead of HAL building a larger version of the Statendam or Rotterdam, they are going to have to *alter* their product to the Spirit. This will be a designed for Carnival ship with HAL interiors the same way the Millennium is a designed for RCI ship with Celebrity interiors (so Radiance doesn't have the same problems Millie has - doesn't have to adapt her design to a "foreign" hull), and like the Millennium which has some real changes to the Celebrity designed Century/Galaxy/Mercury, I think HAL's Vista class will have some areas that just don't fit HAL. Not sure which, but I think we'll know when the first of the series has been in service for a few months. My main problem is that 5 are planned without enough time to adequately find out what will need to be modified in the first. That's the Millennium problem, and that will be the HAL Vista-class problem as well.
I find in just the renderings in the brochures, some uncomfortable similarities to Carnival's Spirit and the very Carnival-like Costa Atlantica, and I find HAL almost seemingly apologizing for the size of the ship and trying to be reassuring that the ship will be a HAL ship, just a bit bigger with more choices.
Look at Seabourn, who recently sold the Sun (to HAL - that's another story) and now are selling the Goddesses. Their product was designed around the Legend and the other 2 yacht sized Seabourn ships. The non-Seabourn ships did not work right for Seabourn - even with interior modificatoins. I think the ship, from the ground up, is designed, the layout, placement of rooms, flow, placement of major areas, to facilitate a certain experience. I think mixing hulls from a Carnival type of product is the problem. HAL's experience is so different, and the Statendam class are proven to work. A Spirit, even with HAL's fine furnishings, is not a Statendam or Statendam modified blueprint to success the way HAL's clientele define success, IMO.
I think HAL should have had their own hull and maybe 10,000 tons larger in a new series of ships, at the most, even if it meant a less impressive PSR. And certainly, HAL doesn't need to match Millennium's features. I go on HAL for HAL and Celebrity for Celebrity and like each product for their own unique strengths and for their different style of ship. Ships are now, across the various fleets, becoming almost generic in size and features, and oddly, the more we have, we are ending up with less choice in real differences.
"Ships are now, across the various fleets, becoming almost generic in size and features, and oddly, the more we have, we are ending up with less choice in real differences."
Not excited about Vista class
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