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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 11th, 2004, 05:52 PM
clo
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Default Email from HAL re tip distribution

I had emailed HAL at least several weeks ago wanting clarification about tipping. Here's there response:

"If you decide to pay each crew member personally, we would ask that you do so in US Dollars. If you choose to leave the $10/day on your shipboard account, the gratuity will be given to your individual cabin and dining room stewards. The gratuity money is not put into one pool, and then evenly distributed to the staff. Rather, it goes to your own personal service attendants. "

The "pooling" issue has been discussed alot so I was glad to see this in writing.
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Old May 11th, 2004, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution


Would you please also post your info on cruisecritic.com as there have literally been hundreds of threads posted there relating to this specific question. Thanx.
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Old May 11th, 2004, 07:24 PM
clo
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Just posted it at cruisecritic also. HAL's response will probably encourage me to leave it as automatic. It IS awfully convenient to be able to just charge it to our account and not have to hold on to $$$. We're going to be in Europe for three weeks operating on Euros and pounds so this will make it even easier.
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Old May 12th, 2004, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Very odd. I wish I new the truth then. I was on the Zuiderdam 4/23/04 and spoke with my Head Waiter who I new from prior cruises (He has been with Hal for 15 years). There was also a small group of us after the Mariner's party who spoke with the Hotel Manager. There were two passengers in our discussion that had over 1,000 days with HAL, and they were furious to put it mildly. The Hotel Manager told them to write to his President as there was nothing that he could do. Beginning on the Zuiderdam 5/1 this is what the Hotel Manager told us:

$10 added pp per day in stateroom.
The $10 is pooled and then distributed to the following:
Cabin Steward, Head Waiter, Waiter, Asst Waiter (On the Zuiderdam they all have steward in their actual title instead of waiter) and various "behind the scenes" crewmembers primarily in the galley.
OR
You can have it removed and pay directly without pooling.

Irregardless, the staffing must now pay for their uniforms, medical and plane ticket back to home. Also through the pooling process their tips are diluted because it is shared with more personnel. As many Mariners know all of those items had been paid by HAL in the past. This was what set HAL apart and why their crewmembers appeared to be more pleased to work for HAL vs other cruiselines. Supposedly the supervisory staff on HAL are trying to get the employees to stick around to see what the end result will actually be. Because in some cases the actually amount of gratuities received my increase. Time will tell.

Supposedly, 19 dining room staff have already left the Zuiderdam in anticipation of the change. Company wide they think they have lost 120 crewmembers to RCCI because their gratuity program is distributed differently.

IF the above is true then I am concerned that we will see a decline in the quality of staffing with HAL. I hope not

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Old May 12th, 2004, 04:30 PM
clo
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Wow, Steve, that really muddies the water! NOW I think I MAY remove the auto-tip. Why not? Then we KNOW where our money is going, for sure. Thanks for sharing the above. We're sailing from Rome on Weds., 5/19, so we'll try to find more info and share with the board.
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Old May 12th, 2004, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

clo,
I have gotten use to the auto tipping on Princess because it is so much easier with their PC dining and different food venues.
I can actually see how it makes things easier for us as passengers. This last cruise on the Zuiderdam I tipped the Head Waiter, Waiter and Asst plus the candy attendant and my cabin steward along with a couple of drink servers. Not including the drink servers my tipping went over the $10 per day auto tipping.
However, it was kind of tacky though because the Purser's Desk ran out of the smaller tipping envelopes and I had to use a couple of long window envelopes.
If what I was told is true about more staff members sharing the "pie" and the extra expenses incurred by the staff, then the staff's happiness can effect the overall cruise experience.
I will remove the auto tipping on HAL and tip as usual. NOT to save money but to reward who I want to.

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Old May 31st, 2004, 01:50 PM
JacqulelineD
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

All the lines are doing what HAL is just starting to do. I am sure that some of the people-ie bartenders will come out ahead. And many people thought that they didnt have to tip on hal because of that confusing statement about tipping not being expected. There were no guidlines and with so many new cruisers, staff was not getting tipped.
I cant believe that HAL would do anything to undermine the staff as that is what makes the experience.
I would say that people fear change and that this is what is going on.
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Old May 31st, 2004, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

I am curious as to whether or not all the other staff (kitchen help - cooks, etc.) get paid better than the cabin stewards, waiters, etc.? If the distribution of the $10 pp per day is right then the other staff members get no tips at all. Wld be sorry to see the service on HAL worsen as it has been, along with the food quality and larger cabin sizes, its strength. I, personally, handle tipping this way - I like to leave the $10 on my acct daily, give extra to all the major staff if deserved and reward all others separately who have served me - candy person, fancy coffee staff, wine steward, spa staff, etc. This way u only tip for what u use also. I do this by taking small envelopes with me and writing the name of each person on it , adding the tip and dropping it in the 'gratuities' slot beside the front desk. I have checked and been told that it does go directly to the person named - failing that u can give it to them personally if u wish. The Pinnacle Grill staff receives the tip when I have finished my meal (approx $10) and sometimes more if the service is above and beyond and usually is. Works for me and I hope it works for u also. :0)
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old June 1st, 2004, 09:44 PM
Gizmo
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

I copied part of the letter that was distributed on the Veendam 5/17. This was copied from a post on anothe board. It states that the crew must turn in all tips they receive.


Some guests have told us they would prefer paying gratuities directly to one or two
crewmembers. However, the service you receive requires the teamwork of many people most
of whom you never see, such as our chefs and the staff who keep our public areas in
meticulous condition. They also benefit from the gratuities included with your bill. To
ensure the efforts of these crewmembers are also recognized and to discourage solicitation of
guests, dining and cabin stewards are required to turn in any tips they receive directly from
those guests who have removed or reduced the gratuities on their onboard bills.
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Old June 2nd, 2004, 08:56 AM
Lynne G
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

I'm confused...what's a 'candy person'??? Fairly new to cruising and have never heard this term.
Thx.
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Old June 2nd, 2004, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Lynne,
There are usually two crewmembers onboard who at the beginning of dinner are the chime masters (They go thru several public areas ringing the chimes that dinner is ready to be served) and after dinner as you leave the dining room offer crystalized ginger, figs, mints etc. They are in very distinctive outfits and are called the "yum yum boys" by many Mariners.
During dinner they supplement by pouring coffee and socializing.
This is a very distinctive touch that HAL has over the majority of cruise lines.

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Old June 11th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Guy Wilson
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Hi Hal, I read your email with much interest and it colaborated what I had learned from crew members on our recent trip on the Statendam ( San Diego - Hawaii-Vancouver). Crewmembers told me it would cost them between $1,500 and $2,000 for their airfare to the the Phillipines or Indonesia and return. This, coupled with paying for food and uniforms makes me wonder how in the world these poor kids can survive working for Holland America. I verfied this with a crewmember from another Holland America Ship.

I went to the purser requesting a copy of the new gratuity program: HE REFUSED TO GIVE IT TO ME! stating it was personal information of the workers. It is our money and we have the right to know how it is distributed. In as much as Holland America is the poorest performing company under the Carnival umbrella I sincerely question this distribution.

Here is an actual example of how the distribution is working, A crewmember who started working early in the morning, and then worked the breackfast and lunch buffetts, as well as who knows wh, received $30 per week for his gratuity share while a room steward received $400 and a dining steward $450 for the same period.

I for one will not sail with Holland America again until this unfair exploytation is stopped! Sincerely Guy
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Old June 12th, 2004, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Guy Wilson,
What you are missing in your evaluation is -What is the base salaries for each crewmember? That varies greatly. Different jobs have different pay scales. This is nothing unusual at all.
In my business hourly salaries range from $7.50 to $15 per hour with benefits that range from none to large bonuses. It all depends on their job discription.

In my opinion, a dishwasher or utility kitchen worker should have a higher base salary and not share in the tipping while the waiter, asst waiter, etc. get a lower base salary but make up for it in tips - same as land based tip oriented businesses.

I personally am unhappy that we as paying customers are subsidizing the pay of workers "behind the scenes" when it has been customary that the tipping go to the service personnel that take care of us directly.

On my last Zuiderdam cruise I was told the same as you about the waiters were now going to have to pay for their uniforms and airfare. What this means is that the $10 "pot" will be distributed with more personnel and the end result may be (not totally quantified yet) that the service personnel that we normally tip will be making less and paying out more in their expenses.

The end result is that we will and are seeing a large amount of HAL personnel leaving for other lines. On My Zuiderdam cruise they had lost 19 waiters in three weeks. Most went to Royal Caribbean because their tip distribution is handled differently.

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Old June 14th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Skip
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

We are traveling HAL this week. In there resent literature that addressed tipping, they painted a different picture than your e-mail. My understanding of the distribution of the $10 per day included a lot more people than just your steward and waitstaff.
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Old June 14th, 2004, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Skip,
Was your message addressed to me? I state very clearly that the $10 is distributed with personnel behind the scenes and that I am not happy about it. It dilutes the amount given to the personnel that we directly interact with. This along with the additional expenses incurred by the staff is causing many of the crew to leave HAL. This is not a good thing anyway that you look at it.

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Old June 23rd, 2004, 04:31 PM
Marianne Duffy
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Default Re: Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

If I understand Gizmo's note,--"personel must turn in any tips they personally receive from guests who have REDUCED OR REMOVED their tips from their bill"--correctly, if we leave the $10pp automatic gratuity in place our room steward, etc may keep anything extra that we choose to give them. Would that be right? Does anyone know for sure?
Marianne
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old June 23rd, 2004, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

was on the Westerdam in May. Was definately told the $10 is divided with people "behind" the scenes as well as the wait staff/room stewarts.
Was told if we removed the $10 charge from our bill the money given to our personal dining room staff and room attendant would have to be turned in. If we left the $10 charge on our bill, we could then give our attendants EXTRA, that they would be able to keep. Good-bye, HAL no tipping required policy !!!
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Old June 23rd, 2004, 10:30 PM
kalinky
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Sailed the Statendam in May and there definitely was a somber mood with most of the staff members. Service was mediocre.I ask several of the staff members if the new tipping policy had affected their level of service-giving. The staff indicated they were very unhappy with the change in the tipping policy and yes it had affected the service. Several
of the Passengers I talked with also noticed the lack of service.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old June 23rd, 2004, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Try this on for size. Take the Westerdam for example and this information is directly from HAL's web site. The Westerdam's normal passenger capacity is 1848 and that means that 1848 times $10 per day is $18480 collected in tips. If the Westerdam sails 365 days per year then that's 365 times $18480 equals $6,745,200 taken in yearly in tips. Now, it states that there are 800 crew nenbers aboard. $6.745,200 divided by 800 is $8,432. But that's not all. On a 10 day cruise the ship sails, say at 5:00 PM. The passenger is charged $10 for that period. But look..the ship arrived in port at 7:00 AM and the arriving passengers also paid $10 meaning the ship took in a total of $20 per passenger in tips instead of $10 on that day. I know that ships may or may not sail 365 days a year and I know that $8432 might seem like a paltry sum. I have no idea how the money is split among the crew..nor do I know how many days a ship sails in a year's time. All that's happening here is looking at the possibility of how much is collected in tips in a year's time. Kind of interesting.
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Old June 24th, 2004, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

I think it's the cruise line's business how they pay their personnel and I believe it's really none of my business except to pay my grats. whichever is more convenient to me. I learned a long long time ago not to believe much of what the waiters, stewards or other crew members say about it. First of all, many times there's a language barrier and secondly, they're liable to tell you anything to get extra money. NONE of the people working on cruise ships are FORCED to do so. They work there because they WANT to and they sign contracts stating what their pay is going to be and how it's going to be meted out.

Passengers worrying about anything other than the service they get and what they think their service has been worth is unnecessary and it won't change the cruise line's policy.

Service personnel who leave their job leave for their own personal reasons and sometimes their contracts are up and they want to cruise to different areas, some to be with their friends and some to cruise on routes they like better.

I really really really don't think it's OUR business what their arrangements are any more than my employment and the terms of my employment or those who might work for me are anyone else's business.

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Old June 25th, 2004, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Spoken like a true republican Georgie. I guess how a company you choose to hire treats its employees is not important to you. I beg to differ. Aside from the patent absurdity of your general view that wages within an organization are nobodyīs business but those directly involved ( notwithstanding Richard Grasso, Tyco, Enron, World Com, and the malaise caused by ever-widening income disparity between execs and staff), the HAL tipping / wage policy creats both a morale issue and a moral one. Firstly, to the extent a new policy negatively affects some staff, it will have a negative impact on the quality of service provided me. No one likes to be around unhappy workers especially on a cruise ship. Secondly, I, for one, donīt enjoy seeing the men and women of lesser developed counties exploited by the company as it tries to see how little it can pay and still maintain adequate foreign service staff. Itīs a golden rule, Judeo-Christian kind of thing that was probably instilled in me as a kid.You know, share your toys.
Whether HAL is lowering its payroll by the new policy is unknown to me. If it is in an offensive manner, I will rethink my cruising options and my tipping approach.
By the way, aside to cruiser above who objects to HAL charging an extra day on the automatic tip calculation ( charging for day of embarkation and disembarkation ) , NCL used to do the same.I objected and they changed their policy. I am not so sure that feedback to the line wonīt precipitate change in policy.
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Old June 25th, 2004, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Clarification on auto-tipping.
To the two above posts regarding double charging for embarkation/disembarkation day. This thought is not accurate.
The tipping is based on how many nights per cruise - not how many days. On HAL a 7 day cruise is actually 8 days/7 nights, Example:
Embark on a Saturday
Disembark on Following Saturday
7 nights X $10 = $70. Not 8 days at $10 = $80.

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Old June 25th, 2004, 12:58 PM
david darman
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

That may be the case now Steve, but I can assure you that NCL used to ding everyone for that extra day.
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Old June 26th, 2004, 12:00 AM
Dr_Cosmos
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

http://hollandamerica.com/dest/itine...19&dest=047000

Key words in my above post: IF IF IF
The above URL is from HAL's web site and it is the itenerary for a 13 DAY cruise. If you doubt me, then click on the link and see what HAL calls it. I only meant this calculatiion as what I thought was an interesting aside, and it has nothing to do with anybody's official tipping policy. I know for a fact, that is, that the Westerdam will not sail for 365 days in 2004. But, who cares????
Have a great cruise.
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Old June 26th, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

David,
I do not doubt you at all because I have never cruised on Norwegian.
You have first hand knowledge.
I was really commenting on HAL because that is who I have experience with.
However, Hal causes alot of their own confusion by stating $10 per day in their new policy when in reality is is $10 per night.

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Old June 28th, 2004, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

, David Darman, if you're going on a cruise to critique their policy, you may not have much time to enjoy your cruise!

I've been on enough cruises to know that you can't believe everything the staff tells you. They WANT your money and they want as much of it as you will give them.

BTW, I'm not a Republican....please no more personal insults. ;-)

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Old July 14th, 2004, 01:38 PM
Marilyn Brown
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

Re your email on so-calling tipping on Holland America lines. We are getting ready to take a cruise on the Prinsendam. Among the information received from them was a letter stating they were automatically going to charge us $10.00 per day per person for gratuities. The last time I looked in the dictionary the definition of a gratuity was a gift freely given for good service. An arbitrary charge cannot in way be stretched to mean a gratuity. It is plain and simple a service charge. Don't you agree?
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Old July 14th, 2004, 09:05 PM
egee
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

It is not a service charge because if you go to the front desk they will remove it.
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Old November 19th, 2004, 02:55 PM
JUDY ASHLEY
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Default Re: Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

We just returned from the Maasdam after many, many cruises on HAL. This is the first since the change in the tipping policy. We went to the disembarkation talk and it was explained that HAL keeps NONE of the $10/day pp. $3.00 would go to the cabin steward, $3.00 would be split amongst the dining room waiters, and the remaining $4.00 was to go to the dishwashers, the tailors, the kitchen staff. They made NO mention that if you removed your auto tips, that it would go into a pool. We opted to remove all the auto tips as we had absolutely terrible service in the dining room, but had an incredible room steward. We wanted to reward the great service from the cabin steward and deduct part of what we would have normally paid the dining room guys.

The last night when we handed the envelopes to the dining room stewards, the one had a horrified look on his face. In front of our table of 6 he point blank asked if we had removed the auto-tips. He explained that he wanted to know our cabin number because now he was going to have to turn it into the pool or he would be fired. He said he is making 30% less now with the new tipping system.

Doesn't HAL know that "fear" is not a good motivator? Even those this guy was not a good waiter, I feel bad that HAL forces them to ask who did and did not remove the auto-tips. This tells me that they are not getting a printout of who and who does not remove the auto-tips.

While we did notice a handul of really cheerful waiters, most just looked sad and overworked. Everyone we spoke to had the same impression.

In my mind, this is more of a service charge than a tip. When is the last time I tipped a dishwasher at my local restaurnat? Their wages are built into the cost of the meal.

HAL states that they changed their poicy due to surveys of past passengers. Evidently it was too difficult for some people to figure out how to tip. And of course, some people did not tip at all. Those same people will still remove the auto-tip and not pay anything.
As a person who has always tipped well, I think this new system is insulting to us. There is no reward to excellence and the bad servers make the same as the good servers.
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Old November 19th, 2004, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Email from HAL re tip distribution

We sailed on the Prinsendam in October to the Black Sea. I wanted to know the true facts regarding handing envelopes over at the end of our cruise so I asked the P.R. person in charge. This was what I was told:

If we took off the $10 a day charged and handed an envelope over at the end to whoever we wanted to tip, they would have to hand it in to the main pool. The management look up the cabin numbers to see who has kept the $10 a day on or had it removed.

If we left the $10 a day on our account and then handed out the envelopes the person receiving that envelope would be allowed to keep it.

At the disembarkation talk, there was no mention of having the tip removed or of offering extra tips by way of an envelope.

Jennie

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